Pale Master latest change

[Gol]

Simple fix:
1) Allow the current version of necrotic touch to heal undead, including self. Make it cost 5 sp, 0 hp.
2) Add the old version of necrotic touch at tier 3
3) Allow undead form to be dismissed

I'd prefer the undead forms to be stances, myself.

[Spisey]

I'd prefer the undead forms to be stances, myself.

/signed

[ieatogres]

Is it? Are you going to go stand amongst those Orthons and Bearded Devils so you can do your 120 damage every 3 seconds? Gonna go get in Horoth's face every 3 seconds to maintain your sustained dps?

Perhaps raid bosses is slightly exaggerating, but there's alot of nasty stuff before the raid bosses too, and I don't think a level 20 Drow Wizard should be walking up and petting them.

Slower but bigger shots are much more conducive to this ability on Wizards. 600 hit point shots every 15 seconds would work better than 120 point shots every 3 seconds.

(kinda jumped tracks from the Max/Emp thing there, but basically, the whole thing just doesn't synergize well, doesn't make good sense, but at least getting to drop big Max/Emp bombs would have given some value)

I just tested necrotic touch with my level 19 wizard and I was getting ~30-80 damage; before this latest change I was getting ~120-180. With as many HP as the high level mobs have hitting for 30-80 damage standing right next to the mob with a fragile caster is a waste of my clerics spell points as he is going to end up having to ress me quite often.

The added spell/hit point cost would be fine if they would have kept the metamagic feat and damage of the spell the same as it was originally. The summoned are nearly useless now that you can't heal them without scrolls. I could see how unlimited heals on the summoned may have been a little too powerful, even though they don't do much damage, but now that there is a 1 hp 1 sp cost to use the touch I don't see why this ability was removed.

As it stands right now it is debateable that the PrE is even worth taking.

[ddoer]

As it stands right now it is debateable that the PrE is even worth taking.

is it still debateable? I think we unanimously agree the PrE is not worth taking, from most (if not every) replies on this thread. Now, it's time to think about how to fix it.

[sephiroth1084]

What the hell was the point of these changes anyway? Necrotic Touch is now so weak it's almost pointless and still cannot be used to heal yourself? So, why bother with it at all?

They should definitely be stances, perhaps with a longish cooldown when you drop out of the stance, but as it is the penalty of being unhealable (unless you happen to take UMD) really outweighs the benefits. And all the negative energy bonus stuff is a waste unless we get some spells added to our lists, since the touch attack is pointless.

[bobbryan2]

What the hell was the point of these changes anyway? Necrotic Touch is now so weak it's almost pointless and still cannot be used to heal yourself? So, why bother with it at all?

They should definitely be stances, perhaps with a longish cooldown when you drop out of the stance, but as it is the penalty of being unhealable (unless you happen to take UMD) really outweighs the benefits. And all the negative energy bonus stuff is a waste unless we get some spells added to our lists, since the touch attack is pointless.

I just love the chain of events.

Devs preview Pale Master.

People say, "Cool! A little underpowered, and I'm not sure how useful it will be without any form of healing, but it's cool."

Devs Nerf it hard and say, "How do you like me now?"

[Kriogen]

For me, to be worth taking, PM would be like:

Rank1:
- necrotic touch: 1d4/level damage, at-will, zero mana and hp cost. Hey, if it has mana cost it'd not take it, Im a wizard I can allready cast spells that cost mana Why would I burn feat, AP to get semi usefull spell blocked by DW that can't be max/empowered?
- summon undead 1: summon undead servant, melee version, that levels up as casters does

Rank2:
- undead perks:
- wraith: can be dismissed like rage, 2 min cooldown (like multishot), 2 time per rest
- or fixed +50% fortification and -25% heal and repair, immune vs disease
- you can have only one, form or static bonus
- summon undead 2: summon undead servant, ranger version, that levels up as casters does

Rank3:
- undead perks:
- lich: can be dismissed like rage, 2 min cooldown (like multishot), 3 times per rest
- or fixed +75% fortification and -25% heal and repair, immune vs poison
- you can have only one, form or static bonus
- summon undead 3: summon undead servant, caster version, that levels up as casters does

So not 6 summones, only 3 different, but pets level up as you do. Lets say CR = caster_level - 1. Undead form is like Barbarians rage, at-will really is at-will, not like some cheap wand that burns mana and HPs. Zero trace of any self-heal ideas, undead don't do that, mobs negative energy can heal, but no self, its an ebil wizard not mother-type healer.

[sephiroth1084]

I just love the chain of events.

Devs preview Pale Master.

People say, "Cool! A little underpowered, and I'm not sure how useful it will be without any form of healing, but it's cool."

Devs Nerf it hard and say, "How do you like me now?"

It's just for situations like this that the phrase mind boggling was invented.

[Aesop]

For me, to be worth taking, PM would be like:

Rank1:
- necrotic touch: 1d4/level damage, at-will, zero mana and hp cost. Hey, if it has mana cost it'd not take it, Im a wizard I can allready cast spells that cost mana Why would I burn feat, AP to get semi usefull spell blocked by DW that can't be max/empowered?
- summon undead 1: summon undead servant, melee version, that levels up as casters does

Rank2:
- undead perks:
- wraith: can be dismissed like rage, 2 min cooldown (like multishot), 2 time per rest
- or fixed +50% fortification and -25% heal and repair, immune vs disease
- you can have only one, form or static bonus
- summon undead 2: summon undead servant, ranger version, that levels up as casters does

Rank3:
- undead perks:
- lich: can be dismissed like rage, 2 min cooldown (like multishot), 3 times per rest
- or fixed +75% fortification and -25% heal and repair, immune vs poison
- you can have only one, form or static bonus
- summon undead 3: summon undead servant, caster version, that levels up as casters does

So not 6 summones, only 3 different, but pets level up as you do. Lets say CR = caster_level - 1. Undead form is like Barbarians rage, at-will really is at-will, not like some cheap wand that burns mana and HPs. Zero trace of any self-heal ideas, undead don't do that, mobs negative energy can heal, but no self, its an ebil wizard not mother-type healer.

Your forms seem a little weak and the limits on use too harsh and without max and empowered the damage of NT is still too low at high level... otherwise not bad



Aesop

[Auran82]

It's looking like it went something like:

Dev1: Hey guys, we previewed Pale Master and the playerbase seems to find it a little, cool, though they think it's a little underpowered
Dev2: Oh no! They have secretly found some way to exploit the abilities that the PRE gives and are just acting like it's underpowered, Dev1, hand me my nerf bat!

[Kriogen]

Your forms seem a little weak and the limits on use too harsh and without max and empowered the damage of NT is still too low at high level... otherwise not bad



Aesop

NT would be at-will, no mana/hp cost and meta works. If meta doesn't work, then I can just use a wand or *cough* crossbow If 1d6/level is to powerfull (and I think its not for 'melee' and compared what Barb can do), easy to balance with 1d4 or 1d6 every 2 levels, etc.

Form: you'd pick current form or nice static bonus. Not both, just one. An interesting, usefull form or perma, but not so powerfull bonus. So exclusive, one or the other. One solid, but sort duration with side effects, the other usefull, perma, tho not imba.

It would also be at 12 and 18, weaker form at 12 (interesting utility), better (like Lich with big DC bonus) at 18.

[dv8maker123]

It's just for situations like this that the phrase mind boggling was invented.

Or even "Mind Bottling".

[Razcar]

You deserve the blessing when you do something amazing, but you also deserve a slap to wake up every now and then. You give the impression that you don't play your game...

The development of DDO game systems and content such as classes, loot, and spells are done in a vacuum. Additions have little connection to and awareness of already existing systems or quest content, and often lacks relation to what we as players actually do when we play DDO. It seems to me like the systems are developed in a modular and independent fashion, so they could e.g. remove all quests, loot and raids in game and replace them with complete new ones, and the game would work as it did before.

The discrepancies in quest and system development leads to strange and limiting situations, since in DDO the quest content never catches up. There are many examples. Favored Enemy: Construct is viable because of the players reacting to the content, while most of the other 20 Enemy types will never be chosen. Apparently inert Portals are more dangerous in Stormreach than Dragons are. Virtuoso bards and Mechanic rogues remain pointless. And the Pale Master PrE gets damage bonuses to Necromantic spells when there are very few spells of that type actually implemented. The list goes on.

Edit: After being stymied this part of my original post makes no sense anymore, so I will change it to fully adhere to the party line: "The Mournlands feedback programme is truly great and the output from it is beyond reproach and critique. May this perfectly functioning system reign in glory forever, and may no man say it could be improved upon, or replaced, because the first would surely be a lie and the second a blasphemy."

It seems to me that the there is a large gap between how the devs think the game is and should be played and how the players actually are playing it. I suggest DDO gets a public representative player panel, like EVE Online has. Take some of the dedicated, long-time players and have them make suggestions and provide feedback. This would significantly reduce the signal-to-noise ratio of devs trying to read the forums, or using exit polls from angry ex-players. Mournlands is evidently a fiasco, as seen in this thread for example.

[rimble]

The development of DDO game systems and content such as classes, loot, and spells are done in a vacuum. Additions have little connection to and awareness of already existing systems or quest content, and often lacks relation to what we as players actually do when we play DDO.

Amen. Very concise, and accurate, and the root of all evil in DDO.

[Cyr]

It certainly does seem that Mournlands is not an effective demonstration of how people actually play on live if the content we get on live is any indication. However, I would not let the devs off the hook so easily. Certain departments absolutely should have an intimate understanding of the game and how it is played without anyone else having to tell them something is dumb/good/etc. Systems is the number one culprit here for being out of touch and really to do their job needs to be completely in sync instead. Loot, balancing decisions, new PrE's, and new game mechanics are the most sloppy and ill thought out things in game throughout it's history. Artwork and quests are historically the best departments in game.

[Razcar]

Amen. Very concise, and accurate, and the root of all evil in DDO.

I think an additional problem is that the devs pick and implement snippets out of the enormously rich D&D canon without yet having implemented the basics. A Pale Master makes sense if they would already have all the necromancy school spells from the Players Handbook in the game. But they have not.

If they want to create cool esoteric D&D stuff like the Pale Master, they should ask themselves how to succesfully implement it in the game the actually have, as the game actually plays.

[Schwarzie]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

With my first look upton this PrC i though: Well nice, that without selfhealing seems to be a bug, otherwise this maybe could be worth the tradeoff (less damage Enhancements and Critenhancements for my Spells).


Now it got nerfed.

Now it is simply GARBAGE.

Why do all the melee classes get no-Brainer as PRCs like Kensai or Tempest and the wizard this piece of ****? Even if you would half the AP cost for this i wouldnt waste a thought to take it.

[Ebondevil]

Better off giving the Pale Master to Clerics as things stand, at least they'd get some use of it and have the spells to back it up...

Before the nerfs I was thinking about it and would have tried it, would have liked to see repair spells work in the forms, and the necrotic touch work as well.

After there's not a chance I'll even bother trying it out.

Adding a HP cost to abilities for one of the lowest hp classes is completely ******** in my opinion, considering there's no self healing available and normal healing is nerfed by the forms.

If the Necrotic touch was left as it was and allowed self healing in the undead forms it would still take the 30SP to use a form before the self healing could take effect and then it would be for 3 minutes out of every 5, not exactly Crazybroken™ really.

[Visty]

just had an idea, what about making palemaster more like in pnp?

tier1 nat ac+2, summon lower undead, +5hp
tier2 nat ac+4, summon medium undead, +5hp, str+4 (inherant like in the book or maybe profane?), para touch, weaking touch, degenerative touch, commanding touch, immunity to stun
tier3 nat ac+6, summon higher undead, +10hp, deathless master touch, +100% fortification


the touches are like monk stances and work on unarmed hits (in the quotes the pnp versions):

Paralyzing Touch (Su): A living foe hit by the pale
master’s touch attack must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC
14) or be paralyzed for 1d6+2 minutes (elves are immune).

this touch adds paralyzing to your unarmed attacks (like the weapon but fort instead of will save)

Weakening Touch (Su): A living foe hit by the pale
master’s touch attack takes 1d6 points of temporary
Strength damage. A creature reduced to Strength 0 dies.

adds weakening to your unarmed attacks

Degenerative Touch (Su): A living foe hit by the pale
master’s touch attack receives one negative level. The
Fortitude save to remove the negative level has a DC of
14.

adds energy drain to your unarmed attacks. maybe onhit with a save dc 14 or on crit only like the dreamspitter

Destructive Touch (Su): A living foe hit by the pale
master’s touch attack must succeed at a Fortitude save
(DC 14) or take 1d6 points permanent Constitution drain.

adds wounding to your unarmed attacks (or maybe what the current wraith form has, 2d6 on crit)

Commanding Touch (Su): If the pale master makes a
successful touch attack against an undead foe with HD
equal to or less than his caster level, it comes under his
command for a number of rounds equal to his caster
level. When the duration expires, the undead creature
returns to its former allegiance, if any. The newly
controlled undead can still be turned.

at will control undead? or maybe dominate undead at will so you can use it on your undeads created by the create undead spell and they still follow you
or maybe command undead on unarmed attacks? so you charm them while hitting then? well, that seems silly^^

Deathless Master Touch (Su): A living foe of size Large
or smaller hit by the pale master’s touch attack must
succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 17) or die. A slain creature
automatically animates 1 round later as though
with the pale master’s animate dead ability (see above)
and is under his control. Undead created using this
power do count against the pale master’s HD total for
controlling undead

adds vorpal to your unarmed attacks. slain mobs raise as ghost and fight with you for 1min

[€dit]
as that currently is favoring monksplashs abit, maybe add an atwill effect with each stance, implemented like current necro touch with 3sec cooldown and such:
paralyzing: paralysed
weakening: 1d6 str drain
degenerativ: 1 neg lvl
desctuctiv: 1d6 con drain
deathless master: dead
DC fort (10+wizardlvl/2+int) negates
[/€dit]


for the undead summons do sth like:
low: skeleton
medium: wraith
high: mummy


thoughts?

[Sarezar]

just had an idea, what about making palemaster more like in pnp?

tier1 nat ac+2, summon lower undead, +5hp
tier2 nat ac+4, summon medium undead, +5hp, str+4 (inherant like in the book or maybe profane?), para touch, weaking touch, degenerative touch, commanding touch, immunity to stun
tier3 nat ac+6, summon higher undead, +10hp, deathless master touch, +100% fortification


the touches are like monk stances and work on unarmed hits (in the quotes the pnp versions):

this touch adds paralyzing to your unarmed attacks (like the weapon but fort instead of will save)


adds weakening to your unarmed attacks


adds energy drain to your unarmed attacks. maybe onhit with a save dc 14 or on crit only like the dreamspitter



adds wounding to your unarmed attacks (or maybe what the current wraith form has, 2d6 on crit)


at will control undead? or maybe dominate undead at will so you can use it on your undeads created by the create undead spell and they still follow you
or maybe command undead on unarmed attacks? so you charm them while hitting then? well, that seems silly^^


adds vorpal to your unarmed attacks. slain mobs raise as ghost and fight with you for 1min

[€dit]
as that currently is favoring monksplashs abit, maybe add an atwill effect with each stance, implemented like current necro touch with 3sec cooldown and such:
paralyzing: paralysed
weakening: 1d6 str drain
degenerativ: 1 neg lvl
desctuctiv: 1d6 con drain
deathless master: dead
DC fort (10+wizardlvl/2+int) negates
[/€dit]


for the undead summons do sth like:
low: skeleton
medium: wraith
high: mummy


thoughts?

(Duplicated post for the same reasons as you)

Apart from it being an OK PrE for Wizard/Monk multiclass builds, I don't see a benefit to anyone else. I'd like PrEs to be good to the pure/almost pure builds primarily, and if multiclasses benefit as well, even better. Wizards are masters of magic after all.