Pale Master latest change

[RobertoRoxton]

Wow, they just screwed the PrE, pretty nerfed now...
Necro Touch without metamagic. Really nice!
I made a Wiz since I really enjoy necromancy, but for now just going back to my Sorc...
Thx devs.

[Talamare2k4]

Say Necro does 100 damage

with 1 mana = 100 dpm (damage per mana)
w/ emp 16 mana = 9.375 dpm
w/ max 26 mana = 7.69 dpm
w/ both 41 mana = 6.09 dpm

Using meta just heavily lowers the spells mana efficiency, unless everyone here deluded themselves into thinking that they would also be allowed to max/emp this spell for no cost as well

[rimble]

Using meta just heavily lowers the spells mana efficiency, unless everyone here deluded themselves into thinking that they would also be allowed to max/emp this spell for no cost as well

'deluded' seems pretty trollish seeing as how there are similar abilities in the game already that do work that way. It was a very reasonable assumption.

Even if Max/Emp is worse damage-per-mana, often you DO want to be able to 'damage dump' regardless of mana (in)efficiency. It is already that way for most spells, isn't it?

[Talamare2k4]

Even if Max/Emp is worse damage-per-mana, often you DO want to be able to 'damage dump' regardless of mana (in)efficiency. It is already that way for most spells, isn't it?

Arent there plenty of better spells for mana dumping

This is more for sustained dps, then it is for max dps

Yes, using weapons as others have said might end up more dps then spamming this, but if you wanted to use weapons you probably wouldnt be playing a caster

[rimble]

This is more for sustained dps, then it is for max dps

Is it? Are you going to go stand amongst those Orthons and Bearded Devils so you can do your 120 damage every 3 seconds? Gonna go get in Horoth's face every 3 seconds to maintain your sustained dps?

Perhaps raid bosses is slightly exaggerating, but there's alot of nasty stuff before the raid bosses too, and I don't think a level 20 Drow Wizard should be walking up and petting them.

Slower but bigger shots are much more conducive to this ability on Wizards. 600 hit point shots every 15 seconds would work better than 120 point shots every 3 seconds.

(kinda jumped tracks from the Max/Emp thing there, but basically, the whole thing just doesn't synergize well, doesn't make good sense, but at least getting to drop big Max/Emp bombs would have given some value)

[Sarezar]

I find it both weird and funny that after 4+ years of development, they are still struggling to introduce enhancements that are close to balanced with consistent frequency.

It's like no one asked themselves "Why would someone choose this PrE, and are those reasons enough to implement it like this?"

Why do you have to test incredibly powerful or weak versions of enhancements on a test server and wait for player feedback to know what is close to balanced in your game?

Anyway, I don't want to rant (too much), so here is what my "simple" mind thought a split second after reading this thread:


- You lock me out for 3 whole minutes with no way to leave this possessed Undead state to gain a few stat points, whilst being immune to healing, requiring UMD to scroll heal myself.
- You give me pets that even with unllimited healing, they can only be small help for a certain (low) level range, and it means that I have to babysit them or respawn them. Not to mention avoid that Sleet Storm.
- You give me an unlimited SP damage spell, which would work on almost all monsters and do loads of damage (clearly unbalanced) and now it does insignificant damage and costs SP. Which means I cannot even use it if I run out of SP, nor to save my life if I am low on HP.

Why would I ever become a Pale Master? Just because the Wraith form looks cool? Not to mention the feat cost for the useless forms... I bet Eladrin would reply on this "This PrE is for RP players" just to annoy me

You deserve the blessing when you do something amazing, but you also deserve a slap to wake up every now and then. You give the impression that you don't play your game...

[Favis]

It is clearly an implementation error that Necrotic Touch cannot heal undead. As already explained by the developers, the reason Necrotic Touch was nerfed in throughput and cost was to prevent it from being too powerful for self-healing. They would not have added a cost in hp and sp if it can't target allied undeads.

This is the only reasoble explaination.
When Necrotic Touch was good they got a heavy critic that PM could not heal with Necrotic Touch and harm/inflict scroll.
I also interpetated explaination from the devs like Angelus_dead.

[maddmatt70]

I am quite surprised they nerfed the +4 to int and +2 to necro dcs. As others have pointed out when the other prestige enhancements come out they will be preferred over the pale master.

[BLITHELY]

Ty devs for another substandard Pre. The first version was ok and could be potent in limited circumstances. The new version is pretty much garbage.

Suggested fixes 2 Pre

Tier 1 - Change the cost of Necrotic Touch to 5 sps. Allow it to be affected by meta magics but similar 2 other innate abilities does not cost additional spell points. Cannot be used for self healing and is not blocked by death ward.

Tier 2 - Grant additional ability at no cost that allows some form of self healing when in undead form. Either through a type of Lay on Hands mechanism ie X times per rest based upon lvl or through a type of divine healing mechanism X times per rest based upon lvl. Deathward is negated when in undead form ie immune to its effects.

Tier 3 - This 1 is really terrible. Either add an upgrade 2 necrotic touch having it inflict additional stat damage and or a form of vampirism or an Additional +1 Dc to Necromancy spells or undead forms now last 5 mins with 5 min cool down or u have become infused with the power of death negative energy heals u whether or not u r in undead state(unique maybe over the top).

Additional Suggestions

Sell Harm scrolls at vendors Wizards with umd can now double down on scroll expenses.

[Favis]

I am quite surprised they nerfed the +4 to int and +2 to necro dcs. As others have pointed out when the other prestige enhancements come out they will be preferred over the pale master.

The change from +4 int to +2 int could be expain with that they didn't though about "+Int Yugo pot" first.
But lowering the necro DC is strange as it has nothing to do with the change of Necrotic Touch.

[Maegin]

im sure someone will figure outa way for this to be effective at one point in time, but at its current rate, I sense fail. Good thing i didnt commit to feat respec'ing. I just hope they dont do the same for Archmagi.

The wraith form i can see being cool, just trying to get from one place to another, without being detected, since everything can see through invisibility nowdays, a treat for stealth mages out there I suppose, and the miss chance cant be circumvented by true seeing, that is common nowdays.

Anyone playing the game past normal mode can see that the summons are just for fluff or minor distraction. something we already had with summon monster. again, just a decoy tool, and avoiding the real issue of still needing to DPS stuff, since the dev's insist thats the way we have to play these days anyways.

bomuses to dc's. there is merit here for evening the playing field, but at the cost of no healing, or different method of healing.

Speaking of that, this new method of healing, is just like the wf arcane theory. While its practical on paper to say, 'Oh just harm scroll me, no big deal", but the reality is, unless there a specific scroll healer for that wf, its likely divided attention of self healing from necro touch, and juggling timers of spell coll downs, this could be a PITA. Most just went around this with healers friend and not so much on reconstruct, unless specifically instructed for the need for pure reconstruct. same will apply to inflict. its the same theory imo.

idk, it all has merit, but I jsut dont see the practicallness of it all, but I guess its a change of pace from fw :/ maybe some good will come, but not anytime soon. either way, no bueno.

[BLITHELY]

I do not agree with the idea with Necrotic touch being used as a self healing mechanism. It grants nearly unlimited self healing when in an undead state even with the current change. Healing your undead summons is fine. Rather a mechanism should be added 2 the tier 2 of this prestige that allows for healing when in undead form. After all healing one self at the tier 1 stage is not possible.

While the necrotic touch with no cost might have been slightly overpowered it was in no way deserving of the nerfing it has been given. Assigning a reasonable cost in sps to this innate ability while still having it affected by metamagics is a reasonable compromise.

[Archetype]

BLEH

Well, I just finished grinding out my first 1000 favor character in order to achieve Veteran status on my (newly Freeb) account, mostly to be able to quickly create a Pale Master-specced Wizard build and get her out into the world, ready for this once-interesting PrE to lauch live.

Now, I am seriously gonna consider spending some real-world bucks and buy into the Aion craze that has stolen most of my guildies away from DDO. They tell me that the devs there are quite on top of it. Hmmm...

THAT is one of the consequences of this apparently lack of developer VISION (or at least the ability to consistently properly execute a creative vision that someone had to enrich the game experience). I thought we had gotten away from this in DDO:EU (this seems much more like the annoying DDO:Stormreach dev behavior that anyone who has been here for a couple of years will remember).

"Can you hear us now?"

[Gol]

Well that's the icing on my already-baking-cake of hope in another wizard PrE that doesn't suck - ETA: 2011.

[Xenus_Paradox]

Sigh.

Allow Necrotic Touch to heal allies, and allow metamagics to apply to Necrotic Touch. When used to heal, have it automatically roll 1 on every d6, for a maximum base healing value of 20. Empowered and maximized, with PM III and the PM set gets you 71 HP per use, minus the 1 HP to activate it. A crit with a Major Void Lore item equipped would give you 177 HP 18% of the time. Average of around 89 net gain on a 3 second cooldown, shared with the damage application, so you're either healing >90 HP OR dealing 311 average damage every 3 seconds.

[Aesop]

hehe ... up next

The new Kensai PrE

everytime you hit costs you 5 hp (unless you use Power Attack or Combat Expertise and then its 10) Power Surge now makes you immune to healing.

somehow this doesn't work for me.



Drop the cost
allow the metamagics
cut the base damage down to d4s
Have this be a similar effect to Chill Touch and Fear undead and NOT heal at all
Leave the Fort save in


Make the Forms dismissable and just cost spell points to activate (allow extend to work with them as well) considering that Wounding weapons are all over the place would it be so horrible if the wraithe form did 1 constitution damage a hit? Especially with the Wizard attack?


improve the summons (get rid of sleet storm)
skeletons for first tier
wights for second tier
wraithes specters and a Vampire for third tier


Aesop

[Talamare2k4]

I would say

*Remove the Health cost from necrotic touch
*Change the damage to (1d4+2)/per caster level, 20d4+40 at max (heals pets and enemy undead for this much)
*Leave it that it cant be affected by any metamagic
*Add in self healing at 25% of what you can do in damage 5d4+10 at max
*Allow the wizard to still receive 25% healing from all their original source
*So a heal spell will still heal for 150 * 0.25 = 37~ hp
*A heal spell on a warforge who didnt take any healer friends - 150 * 0.5 * 0.25 = 18~ hp

edit - A different way to reword it is to make that a wizard in undead forms heals are reduced to 25%, be it positive(repair wf) or negative energy, this allows you to keep the necrotic touch simple --- and doesnt cripple the wizard from divine heals (arcane repairs)



20d4+40 = 60-120 damage
5d4+10 = 15-30 healing

Averages of
60 + 120 = 180 / 2 = 90 * 1.45 * 1.6 = 208
208 * 2 = 416

208 * 82 = 17056
416 * 18 = 7488
17056 + 7488 = 24544 / 100 = 245 average damage per cast, 81 dps

15 + 30 = 45 / 2 = 22.5 * 1.45 * 1.6 = 52
52 * = 104

52 * 82 = 4264
104 * 18 = 1872
4264 + 1872 = 6496 / 100 = 64 average healing per cast, 21 hps

[Fomori]

I tested this PrE the day it came out. Since I didnt have enough points to Greater Reincarnate and they didnt have Flawless Dragonshards for sale in the DDO store I was only able to use my free feat respect (which I still have) to take Necromancy Spell Focus. Thus I only had the first tier of Pale Master.

I noticed that even with a single tier the Necrotic Touch was doing impressive damage, ~300 damage when the save was failed. Then I noticed that it was being effected with my metamagic feats; empower and maximize, which was responsible for a good chunk, as was confirmed when I turned them off. Further testing lead to notice that unquickened it was was pretty useless as I was getting interrupted because I had to be in melee range and getting beat on is not fun. Thus the high damage was offset by me needing to go toe-to-toe with the baddies.

Thus the new changes, from what I read are no metamagic feats and sp cost, really do make it a useless PrE. It seems that you cant simply splash the PrE, which requires giving up the metamagic reducers and damage line increases. The lack of metamagic applications means that you now have to risk melee to do almost useless damage, that is WHEN the animation finally goes off and if it wasnt interrupted. The last item is that the no SP cost made it so that us wizzes could help contribute meaningfully without using our "blue bar". I was really looking forward to being able to touch mobs that didnt require massive firewalls or being able to get into the shroud to help "DPS" Harry...

So then that leaves the pets and forms.

The tier 1 pets might as well not even exist. I wandered into Korthos wilderness to see their effectiveness at low levels and they even failed my already low starting expectations. The arcane version was twitching on whether to melee/cast most of the time. The archer was always moving to keep its "range" and the fighter was not swinging due to the same issue we have with hirelings not being able to shrine when the surface they are on is not perfectly flat. They managed to kill ~1 Korthos wilderness mob / minute.

Without massive skeleton improvements that leaves the forms...

Since I have not tested those I cannot say whether the investment of enhancement points is worth that aspect only. At least you shouldnt have to waste points on the skeles.

The main people that will use this is the newbies that go "I want to play a necromancer" and those people can ALREADY roleplay that, they dont need an full PrE line dedicated to their roleplaying.

[Kalari]

Sigh I had planned my main wizard Kalari around this to give me a reason to pull her off the shelf again. I already had the necromancy focus and possibly the other pre reqs for it and was going to re arrange my enhancements..now im thinking about just changing out my feat for some toughness and be done with hoping for this to be any good. Necromancers should be more formidable then this in my opinion and this will be a pre that I wont be bothering with now.

[Monkey_Archer]

Simple fix:
1) Allow the current version of necrotic touch to heal undead, including self. Make it cost 5 sp, 0 hp.
2) Add the old version of necrotic touch at tier 3
3) Allow undead form to be dismissed