Pale Master latest change

[bobbryan2]

I think the form should not be a toggle or toggle effect. It should be a more less permanent state. A lich doesn't switch between forms, they are simply a lich, same with vampire or wraith. The form should only be changeable by reseting your enhancements at the trainer. The other change I would make is that any character with an undead form can not group with any players or hirelings instead they should only be able to group with their undead creations which would function like hirelings. This would allow you to considerably beef up the abilities of the prestige class as the inabilityto group with other players would be a serious counterbalance to these enhancements. In essence it would make it a thematic solo mode for wizards.

A solo-only class would be completely untenable in this game. Not sure how you would do any end game raids with nothing other than yourself a few summoned undead.

Gonna guide your wraith across the tiles in the Abbot? or equip them with boots of anchoring for the Tower of Despair? Also... would it not defeat the purpose of being massively multiplayer if you're forbidden from grouping with other players?

[rincemeister]

A solo-only class would be completely untenable in this game. Not sure how you would do any end game raids with nothing other than yourself a few summoned undead.

Gonna guide your wraith across the tiles in the Abbot? or equip them with boots of anchoring for the Tower of Despair? Also... would it not defeat the purpose of being massively multiplayer if you're forbidden from grouping with other players?

It's not untenable at all - if you want to raid change your enhancements or use a different toon , I've been told by many people they have two toons for the shroud, one to farm and one to complete the raid it's not really that different. Most players have multiple toons that they play for a whole variety of reasons and circumstances. The Lich PrE woudl be for your solo-ing toon. Nobody is forced to use the enhancement and it can be readily changed to something raid appropriate once you hit higher enough level that raiding becomes an issue.

[bobbryan2]

It's not untenable at all - if you want to raid change your enhancements or use a different toon , I've been told by many people they have two toons for the shroud, one to farm and one to complete the raid it's not really that different. Most players have multiple toons that they play for a whole variety of reasons and circumstances. The Lich PrE woudl be for your solo-ing toon. Nobody is forced to use the enhancement and it can be readily changed to something raid appropriate once you hit higher enough level that raiding becomes an issue.

Well, I have 6-7 toons for the shroud. All of them complete. No one "farms." People stopped "farming" the Shroud before Mod 7 came out. I'm still baffled that people have regressed back to that old tactic. The sheer preponderance of 1-4 runs lately amazes me.

Secondly.. they can't just change their enhancements. You would lock someone into not being able to group for 3 days at a time at best.

Thirdly... there are no other prestige enhancements for wizards. If you make the only wizard PrE solo only, you basically turn wizards into a solo only class at worst, and at best, a class with no PrEs.

And despite all that, it doesn't even make logical sense to exclude party members. You team up with 3 undead people in the Litany of the Dead quest. You team up with undead in the VoNs. The entire point of Eberron's murky alignmnet philosophy is that different people come together with similar goals, even though they wouldn't work together in other campaigns.

And on top of it all... it's not really a good idea to make "solo characters' in MMOs. Characters that 'can' solo? Sure. Characters that 'have' to solo? Bad.

[sephiroth1084]

It's not untenable at all - if you want to raid change your enhancements or use a different toon , I've been told by many people they have two toons for the shroud, one to farm and one to complete the raid it's not really that different. Most players have multiple toons that they play for a whole variety of reasons and circumstances. The Lich PrE woudl be for your solo-ing toon. Nobody is forced to use the enhancement and it can be readily changed to something raid appropriate once you hit higher enough level that raiding becomes an issue.

You're right, it's not untenable--it's stupid. I hate to be so abrasive, but this game is designed for grouping. Even with the ability to solo many quests, this game is not designed around that. Changing the wizard PrE to bar them from grouping with other players would do nothing, absolutely nothing to benefit the wizard, and would be aimed at a fairly small portion of the DDO audience who have a high level caster, yet never group with other people.

Continuing to discuss such an outrageous idea is just wasting space in this thread.

[Spisey]

That would be pretty awesome! Give us Vampiric Touch! It solves the self-healing issue, somewhat, and gives us a negative energy spell!

/signed

[mikelovskij]

wizards relly need a good pre, not a nerfed one.

[rincemeister]

You're right, it's not untenable--it's stupid. I hate to be so abrasive, but this game is designed for grouping. Even with the ability to solo many quests, this game is not designed around that. Changing the wizard PrE to bar them from grouping with other players would do nothing, absolutely nothing to benefit the wizard, and would be aimed at a fairly small portion of the DDO audience who have a high level caster, yet never group with other people.

Continuing to discuss such an outrageous idea is just wasting space in this thread.

The idea of being a lich for 3 minutes or a wraith for 3 minutes I feel is far more stupid. I also think the concept of a paladin grouping with a lich or wraith even more stupid. This games supports solo play and there are obviously players who like to solo or circumstances dictate they have to solo a lot. A mode that supports solo play is not IMO a stupid idea.Many players have different toons that the use for different situations or as circumstance dictates. Having trouble finding a group, no problem just hop on your lone wolf Lich toon. The advantage of a solo mode toon would be that it could be more powerful than a toon that can group, without disrupting quest balance.
Would it be for everyone of course not but it would certainly be a PrE that I think many Wizards would dabble in from time to time. Your statement that changing wizard PrE to bar them from grouping would do absolutely nothing to benefit the wizard is wrong, the benefit would be a more powerful toon than a grouping toon, the trade off being you are restricted to solo play.

The current incarnation of the Pale master is unlikely to played by all but a handful of wizard players as the devs have watered it down so much. Indeed the only reason most players would switch to this PrE is if it had a significant power advantage over the existing non PrE wizard, something the devs are unlikely to be comfortable with. A signifcantly more powerful solo only pale master wouldn't be a deal breaker and I believe would see significantly more use than the current PrE offering and to me makes more "logical" sense than a lich that toggles on and off or lasts for 3 minute bursts.

[sephiroth1084]

The idea of being a lich for 3 minutes or a wraith for 3 minutes I feel is far more stupid. I also think the concept of a paladin grouping with a lich or wraith even more stupid. This games supports solo play and there are obviously players who like to solo or circumstances dictate they have to solo a lot. A mode that supports solo play is not IMO a stupid idea.Many players have different toons that the use for different situations or as circumstance dictates. Having trouble finding a group, no problem just hop on your lone wolf Lich toon. The advantage of a solo mode toon would be that it could be more powerful than a toon that can group, without disrupting quest balance.
Would it be for everyone of course not but it would certainly be a PrE that I think many Wizards would dabble in from time to time. Your statement that changing wizard PrE to bar them from grouping would do absolutely nothing to benefit the wizard is wrong, the benefit would be a more powerful toon than a grouping toon, the trade off being you are restricted to solo play.

The current incarnation of the Pale master is unlikely to played by all but a handful of wizard players as the devs have watered it down so much. Indeed the only reason most players would switch to this PrE is if it had a significant power advantage over the existing non PrE wizard, something the devs are unlikely to be comfortable with. A signifcantly more powerful solo only pale master wouldn't be a deal breaker and I believe would see significantly more use than the current PrE offering and to me makes more "logical" sense than a lich that toggles on and off or lasts for 3 minute bursts.

Flavor-wise, yes, being able to turn into and out of an undead creature repeatedly is kind of silly. Being able to group with paladins, while going against the grain of traditional D&D conceptually, is no more outrageous than paladins who participate in some of the quests that pit us against good creatures.

Sure, there is an increasing trend of making DDO more solo-friendly, which is fine, though it was always soloable with some skill. That is not the same as warping the new (and currently only) wizard PrE into a solo-only option. Is it poor in its current state? Yeah, **** right, but I(we) am hoping that all the *****ing going on here will inspire the devs to turn out something worth playing, rather than the current POS we have before us. It will certainly reach more players if it becomes solo-only, but that speaks more to the craptitude of the current incarnation than the value of making solo-only content.

The fact is that this is a multiplayer game, both in its design and its flavor, so (I believe) creating class options that prevent multiclassing is a ridiculous concept. There is nothing else in the game that, upon accessing or deciding upon, you become barred from spending time with other players. Can you imagine how big a pain in the ass it would be if someone decided to respec their enhancements and pick up Pale Master, only to discover that they cannot group with anyone for 3 days?

It could be a god of a PrE, and I still wouldn't endorse it as a solo-only option. It's just such poor design, even ignoring that most quests are designed around multiple participants.

As far as things I'd rather not occur, solo-only options for characters (specifically ones that prohibit grouping) are right up there with converting the game entirely to a WoW-like substance, where all quests are replaced with hunts for 80 pelts of this, and 40 hides of that.

[Trillea]

Well, I have 6-7 toons for the shroud. All of them complete. No one "farms." People stopped "farming" the Shroud before Mod 7 came out. I'm still baffled that people have regressed back to that old tactic. The sheer preponderance of 1-4 runs lately amazes me.

<snip>

I think the 1-4 runs lately are a direct result of TRing. Shroud 1-4 is easy, steady, and repeatable, with decent XP and loot for the time involved. The chance of getting a large scale/stone in part 4 is a nice bonus, but not most of the characters' involved main focus IMHO.

Not to mention that small shard drop rates are still horrific.

[oweieie]

Not to mention that small shard drop rates are still horrific.

This. I had enough to make 3 tier 3 greensteels from doing full runs and never got a shard. I only finally got a shard after ransacking part 1.

[asphodeli]

Latest changes as tested with a Clr 8/Wiz 12:

1. You can self-heal using inflict spells from your spell slots as per OP's post, although you must target self. Note that Inflict spells are combat spells and you cannot heal self in city areas.
4. Mantle of the Worldshaper does not regen because it regenerates using positive energy.
3. Unable to regenerate HP while in Undead form in city areas, although SP regen works fine.
4. Unable to teleport to city areas in Undead form, which is quite hilarious.
5. Blur/Displacement will override Incorporeal trait of the Wraith.
6. The proc rate for "occasionally gaining temporary hit points when damaged" in Lich form is very low.

[Dylos_Moon]

4. Unable to teleport to city areas in Undead form, which is quite hilarious.

You can teleport to the portable hole while in undead form, but no where else.

[Angelus_dead]

That would be pretty awesome! Give us Vampiric Touch! It solves the self-healing issue, somewhat, and gives us a negative energy spell!

Vampiric Touch has not been a negative energy spell.

[elyssaria]

Ohhhhh the sadness is sooo strong...

Why nerfing the PrC that I thought was about to be feasible (imo it still could have needed some buffs and certainly not nerfs)?

This PrC just became totally useless. That does hurt cause it had so much potential and now it's something for the trashbin.

I truly hope that they will reconsider and remake this PrC back to something useful.

/Ely

[Dylos_Moon]

Ohhhhh the sadness is sooo strong...

Why nerfing the PrC that I thought was about to be feasible (imo it still could have needed some buffs and certainly not nerfs)?

This PrC just became totally useless. That does hurt cause it had so much potential and now it's something for the trashbin.

I truly hope that they will reconsider and remake this PrC back to something useful.

/Ely

Considering how much time there is before the release of update 3, I think it's rather unfortnate, but we will not be getting a wizard PrE, we'll be getting a cleric PrE that only wizards can take.

[Catholicon]

we will not be getting a wizard PrE, we'll be getting a cleric PrE that only wizards can take.

LOL that's so true!

[shadosatblackphoenix]

I kind of find it funny that a PrE for a class that is so problematic because of SP constraint, which would have fixed that issue a little (without making it overpowered), gets nerfed just because it may do a bit too much damage...

Did the devs not look at some of the other PrEs or something? Warchanter, Assassin III (vorpal-like effect on greensteel weapons!), Tempest, Frenzied Barbarian (woohoo, Epic Sword of Shadow, here i come!), hello? All these make the original Pale Master look like ****...yet it STILL got nerfed?

[Ellyll]

I kind of find it funny that a PrE for a class that is so problematic because of SP constraint, which would have fixed that issue a little (without making it overpowered), gets nerfed just because it may do a bit too much damage...

Did the devs not look at some of the other PrEs or something? Warchanter, Assassin III (vorpal-like effect on greensteel weapons!), Tempest, Frenzied Barbarian (woohoo, Epic Sword of Shadow, here i come!), hello? All these make the original Pale Master look like ****...yet it STILL got nerfed?

You mean how melee classes are arguing about exactly which side of 500 sustained DPS they are on?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=227377

And yet a PrE wiz touch that doesn't do anywhere near that much is somehow over powered?

[dredre9987]

Devs...

Please dont let this go live in its current form.. if you have to hold off til it is right.

[shadosatblackphoenix]

You mean how melee classes are arguing about exactly which side of 500 sustained DPS they are on?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=227377

And yet a PrE wiz touch that doesn't do anywhere near that much is somehow over powered?

Yes, exactly