Pale Master latest change

[Dylos_Moon]

Metas are additive.

1 + 15 + 25 = 41

But they don't work..

That's cost, not effectiveness. I was refering to effectiveness, empower adding time and a half (x1.5) and maximize doubling (x2.0)

[bobbryan2]

That's cost, not effectiveness. I was refering to effectiveness, empower adding time and a half (x1.5) and maximize doubling (x2.0)

Yeah, I edited. They're still additive.

[Khellendros13]

Pretty sure it doesnt stack that way and max = 200%, emp = 150% so it either lost 350% or 250%

It will do 1d6 * 20 = 20-120 damage for 1 hp/sp - good for max dps? no... good for sustained dps? yes

For an average of 20 DPS (60 per 3 seconds), a +5 Holy Burst Falchion or similar would be better at that range. Divine Power clickies are pretty easy to come by.

So now the Necrotic Touch is a pretty useless ability IMO. Really no reason to miss out on capping the Maximise/Heighten tiers over taking the Pale Master forms.

[Talamare2k4]

aye aye

20 + 120 = 140 / 2 = 70 * 1.45 * 1.5 = 152 damage
152 * 2 crit dmg = 304

152 * 82 = 12464
304 * 18 = 5472

12464 + 5472 = 17936 / 100 = 179 average damage with crits included

179 / 3 second recharge = about 60 dps

[LeLoric]

Wow.

The previous version of PM was something that could have used a slight buff not serious nerfing.

They pretty much are going the road of virtuoso, mechanic, deepwood sniper here in making another unusable PrC.

The best purchaseable inflict scroll in game is serious not even critical and no harm so they are basically leaving a PM with the same self healing options while in a form than a regular fleshy wizard with no umd and fewer healing options coming from other players.

Add to that the nerfing of the previous benefits and I see little reason to want a form at all.

This leaves the benefits of the prestige itself without the forms. Necrotic touch is now basically worthless. Not allowing metamagics to affect them is a bad decision. They work for favored soul searing lights and heals and halfling dm's. The amount of damage here is not enough to risk me getting in combat range.
I'll stick with my holy xbow of greater evil outsider bane and silver arrows when i run out of sp thanks. The lack of additional negative damage spells for an arcane really leaves us with a benefit of 40 hp for 8 ap. Think I'll find better uses for these ap thanks.

[LeLoric]

aye aye

20 + 120 = 140 / 2 = 70 * 1.45 * 1.5 = 152 damage
152 * 2 crit dmg = 304

152 * 82 = 12464
304 * 18 = 5472

12464 + 5472 = 17936 / 100 = 179 average damage with crits included

179 / 3 second recharge = about 60 dps

factor in mob saves and you are under 50 for any relevant content no way is this worth it even if they left it without a cost.

Favored souls can get a metamagically enhanced searing light that does much more damage, costs nothing, is usable at range, has no save and affects many more mobs.

[ddoer]

Necrotic touch is no longer effected by any metamagic, as a test I ran into the searing heights, tried casting necrotic touch, noticed it wasn't quickened, toggled quicken, no difference in speed, turned off max/emp, and no difference in damage.

EDIT: There is a difference in damage when I take off my pale master set and potency items however, just thought that was worth mentioning. But this is a huge nerf to necrotic touch, it lost 300%(2.0X1.5, max and emp) of its offensive power, and gained a cost. Plus it no longer heals undead allies, I'm reconsidering the entire PrE now.

I actually did some intensive tests by killing kobolds in Kobold Assault with my L20 wiz. The test results are as follows:

1. In the first test, I turned maximize on and equipped the PM set. excluding crit hits, the average damage of 100 touches is 104, min: 40, max: 134.
2. In the 2nd test, I turned max off, and unequipped the PM set. excluding crit hits, the average damage of 100 touches is 68, min:27, max: 87.

without the set and maximize, the damage is suppose to be base * (1+45%) from the PrC enhancement. with the set on, it is suppose to be base * (1+45%+60%) * (1 + 100%). Assume a base damage of 1, the multiplier for the first and 2nd cases are 1.45 and 4.1 respectively. I think my test results align with Dylos_Moon's finding.

p.s. max + emp gives *250% damage instead of 300%, i suppose it is a well-known fact.

[Favis]

The best purchaseable inflict scroll in game is serious not even critical and no harm

Anybody know the reason behind that?
Would there be any balance issue if they addes harm scrolls as purchaseable?

[Monkey_Archer]

pale master got nerfed? lol... funny..
Garbage PRE.

[ddoer]

I just tried to touch a Pal in Wrath to see if it deals double damage, and I found that Necrotic touch doesn't deal any damage against mobs with DW. Tried running with devil too and can't find any mob with good alignment and without DW.

For a necromancer, i suppose he'll try to instant kill any mob and rely on damage spells only when a mob has DW, and I don't see the logic behind giving a necromancer a damage spell that doesn't work against mob with DW.

[bobbryan2]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what in the world the devs were thinking hitting this with the nerf bat.

It was a borderline cool PrE before. Not really powerful, but very flavorful and had some niftiness as well.

Now it seems like a waste of SP. Lich form is still somewhat nice, and would maybe be worth actually spending a few AP on if you could heal yourself with necrotic touch... But I can't see anyone sticking with Pale Master if archmagi is even borderline cool.

This was a screw up...

[Talamare2k4]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what in the world the devs were thinking hitting this with the nerf bat.

It was a borderline cool PrE before. Not really powerful, but very flavorful and had some niftiness as well.

Now it seems like a waste of SP. Lich form is still somewhat nice, and would maybe be worth actually spending a few AP on if you could heal yourself with necrotic touch... But I can't see anyone sticking with Pale Master if archmagi is even borderline cool.

This was a screw up...

As far as 'flavor' goes it technically didnt lose any, you can still play with your skels, and turn into creepies after the nerf to effectiveness

I read that archmage 'theme' would be "The Wizard Archmage is currently planned to be able to reduce their spell point maximum to purchase a variety of low level spells as spell-like abilities."

Are you willing to reduce your max mana by a good amount to be able to play with level 1-3 spells?

[Xyfiel]

So skip on spell foci feats take 2 toughness instead for a permenant 44 hps. Spend aps to max wand mastery and use fireball/lightning wands to emulate necrotic touch.
Use heal scrolls instead of inflict serious.

Gain real self healing, more hps for all the time, ranged no mana dps, and lose on necro spell dcs. Since my caster doesn't have much problem casting finger/wail now, don't really need it.

I can't see the point other then flavor now.

[ddoer]

...

Speaking about DW, if we have DW, we are immune to inflict wound scroll! You could get DW before or after going to the lich/wrath form.

A good news is, if you have loaded dispell magic, you can dispell the DW casted by the tangleroot goggle. A bad news is, if you are hit by a mass DW, it is unlikely you will be able to dispell it. I've tried to dispell my own GH and it doesn't work even when I rolled a 20.

[Trillea]

As far as 'flavor' goes it technically didnt lose any, you can still play with your skels, and turn into creepies after the nerf to effectiveness

I read that archmage 'theme' would be "The Wizard Archmage is currently planned to be able to reduce their spell point maximum to purchase a variety of low level spells as spell-like abilities."

Are you willing to reduce your max mana by a good amount to be able to play with level 1-3 spells?

Depends on the 1st thru 3rd lvl spells. If scorching ray, frost lance, and chain missile are choosable then possibly... would be good for WFs too if repair serious was on the list.

[Kriogen]

This is a joke, right?

[Auran82]

As far as 'flavor' goes it technically didnt lose any, you can still play with your skels, and turn into creepies after the nerf to effectiveness

Except you would be a necromancer, who can create undead, has a negative energy attack that can't even heal the undead he casts, and has to UMD cleric spells in order to do so.

[Visty]

and there goes a good pre :/

[Xyfiel]

The inability to UMD inflict and harm effects onto yourself as a Pale Master in one of the temporary undead forms will be fixed shortly. All effects able to target "Undead Friends" will be able to target the caster as well, if the caster is undead. There will be a few changes to Necrotic Touch to keep this from becoming crazybroken(tm).

So no way to get harm scrolls, and they get around the undead friends part by making necrotic NOT heal undead friends, therefore can't heal yourself either. Did anyone else expect something completly different?

How about this:
make necrotic touch enhanceable by metamagics again, the cost is fine
make it heal your own summons
make the forms toggable, with no duration
add vampiric touch at PM II

Vampiric Touch:
Cooldown 30 seconds
When in undead form, your touch deals 1d6 points of negative damage per two caster levels (maximum 10d6). You gain temporary hit points equal to the damage you deal. This effect does not stack with itself.

While in undead form, bodyfeeder and lifeshield have no effect.

There, now you can kinda heal yourself, and it keeps the flavor. Personally, I would like to see a vampire form with regen at 12, wraith moved to 6, and lich at 18. Then you could swap to vampire when you needed health.

[Spisey]

/sonotexcitedanylonger

Looks like I'll maybe play with it suring my TR before going back to sorc. That is if Archmagi isn't implemented by then in which case this doesn't even look appealing even on a temporary basis...