Pale Master latest change

[AylinIsAwesome]

Bah, just give the **** PrE to Clerics, but also make it so they always know the Inflict spells instead of the Cure spells (for flavor). Then give Wizards something else that they can actually use...

[Catholicon]

In D&D (I assume this game is based on D&D, right?) non-Good clerics can choose whether to automatically know Cure or Inflict spells. But they also get Domains too, whatever happened to them?

[sephiroth1084]

In D&D (I assume this game is based on D&D, right?) non-Good clerics can choose whether to automatically know Cure or Inflict spells. But they also get Domains too, whatever happened to them?

Inexplicably, Turbine decided to just forget about one of the cleric's most defining features. Now, we have Favored Souls, which are almost identical to clerics, partly because clerics don't have their domains.

By the way, if any devs are reading this, go check out the way Paizo handled domains (and specialties for wizards, and bloodlines for sorcerers, and all sorts of other stuff) in Pathfinder, for some terrific ideas! They really improved upon 3.5 in so many ways! And did so primarily by giving everyone more options without necessary shifting the power curve up much for most classes. Best of all, most of the changes would work well with DDO, partly because the system is designed to dovetail with 3.5, but also because many of the abilities are similar to things implemented here already.

[Chaosprism]

Necrotic touch need some expenditure of 1 health and 1 mana is fine in my books. Completely at will abilities seem a little strong, there needs to be SOME payment, even if it's minor.


I'd like to see normal cantrips like acid splash, cold ray, fire finger, flare added to normal wizards for 1-2 mana usage also.

[Visty]

Necrotic touch need some expenditure of 1 health and 1 mana is fine in my books. Completely at will abilities seem a little strong, there needs to be SOME payment, even if it's minor.


I'd like to see normal cantrips like acid splash, cold ray, fire finger, flare added to normal wizards for 1-2 mana usage also.

try taking a look at the fav soul capstones

[AylinIsAwesome]

Necrotic touch need some expenditure of 1 health and 1 mana is fine in my books. Completely at will abilities seem a little strong, there needs to be SOME payment, even if it's minor.


I'd like to see normal cantrips like acid splash, cold ray, fire finger, flare added to normal wizards for 1-2 mana usage also.

The Favoured Soul capstone for Silver Flame faith is Searing Light with no SP or HP cost.

[Greydeath]

A solo-only class would be completely untenable in this game. Not sure how you would do any end game raids with nothing other than yourself a few summoned undead.

Since, 7 of the 10 raids have BEEN solo'd and certainly two of the remaining three could be solo'd and the final one might be able to (but would be more luck/exploit than skill), I am not sure how you would NOT do end game raids...

[AylinIsAwesome]

Since, 7 of the 10 raids have BEEN solo'd and certainly two of the remaining three could be solo'd and the final one might be able to (but would be more luck/exploit than skill), I am not sure how you would NOT do end game raids...

I don't think it's an issue of whether or not raids can be soloed (though myself I'm dubious if someone could solo Epic raids, though I stand to be proven wrong if someone posts a video), but whether or not having a solo-only PrE is a good thing to do for an MMO, where the focus is on playing with other people.

[hu-flung-pu]

The Favoured Soul capstone for Silver Flame faith is Searing Light with no SP or HP cost.

It also comes at 20th level, not 6th.

[AylinIsAwesome]

It also comes at 20th level, not 6th.

If the Pale Master thing started at a cost and was unaffected my metas, but then by the time you got Pale Master 3 it could me metaed and didn't have a cost, that I, and probably others, would be totally fine with.

EDIT:

What I mean to say is having it for free at level 6 might be a tad overpowered, maybe, but there's no reason it can't get stronger in terms of no-cost and meta-able with Pale Master 3. Especially since this is a touch attack (which makes me think it wouldn't be overpowered even if it was free at level 6) and the FvS Searing Light is at range.

[sephiroth1084]

If the Pale Master thing started at a cost and was unaffected my metas, but then by the time you got Pale Master 3 it could me metaed and didn't have a cost, that I, and probably others, would be totally fine with.

EDIT:

What I mean to say is having it for free at level 6 might be a tad overpowered, maybe, but there's no reason it can't get stronger in terms of no-cost and meta-able with Pale Master 3. Especially since this is a touch attack (which makes me think it wouldn't be overpowered even if it was free at level 6) and the FvS Searing Light is at range.

Maybe the reverse? It seems to me that the most important period for this ability is early inthe game. Later on, mana pools tend to grow vs. time to shrines, so SP isn't quite as tight. Casters also get more efficient spells to offset that issue as well.

The touch attack needs to be at its most useful at level 6.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Maybe the reverse? It seems to me that the most important period for this ability is early inthe game. Later on, mana pools tend to grow vs. time to shrines, so SP isn't quite as tight. Casters also get more efficient spells to offset that issue as well.

The touch attack needs to be at its most useful at level 6.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't cost any SP or HP at all. Even 1 SP + 1 HP seems a bit much for a touch ranged attack that can't be metaed (though metas should work it on).


If it has to have a cost though, I would like to see it go away as you get Pale Master 2 and 3, if only for flavour reasons.

[Greydeath]

I don't think it's an issue of whether or not raids can be soloed (though myself I'm dubious if someone could solo Epic raids, though I stand to be proven wrong if someone posts a video), but whether or not having a solo-only PrE is a good thing to do for an MMO, where the focus is on playing with other people.

I was specifically addressing the stated inability to raid solo - which is clearly incorrect.

However, a solo PrE is not necessarily outside the scope of an MMO - certainly no more so than having a solo setting or soloing in general. Indeed, could not multiples of this 'solo' PrE group together for mutal support?

[sephiroth1084]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't cost any SP or HP at all. Even 1 SP + 1 HP seems a bit much for a touch ranged attack that can't be metaed (though metas should work it on).


If it has to have a cost though, I would like to see it go away as you get Pale Master 2 and 3, if only for flavour reasons.

I don't care about the cost. I think the 1 HP/SP thing is silly and wholly unnecessary, but if it makes the devs feel good to give us this at an even greater cost than just spending AP, that's fine. Having the ability be so weak, however, is not. That's the only bit I really care about--seeing that this PrE not become a waste of space, but a realistic and useful option for wizards.

However, a solo PrE is not necessarily outside the scope of an MMO - certainly no more so than having a solo setting or soloing in general. Indeed, could not multiples of this 'solo' PrE group together for mutal support?

What?

[Mjesko]

By the way, if any devs are reading this, go check out the way Paizo handled domains (and specialties for wizards, and bloodlines for sorcerers, and all sorts of other stuff) in Pathfinder, for some terrific ideas! They really improved upon 3.5 in so many ways! And did so primarily by giving everyone more options without necessary shifting the power curve up much for most classes. Best of all, most of the changes would work well with DDO, partly because the system is designed to dovetail with 3.5, but also because many of the abilities are similar to things implemented here already.

Yeah Pathfinder is great and many times i have thought that it would be nice if Turbine would change some rules in the same way as Paizo did.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I don't care about the cost. I think the 1 HP/SP thing is silly and wholly unnecessary, but if it makes the devs feel good to give us this at an even greater cost than just spending AP, that's fine. Having the ability be so weak, however, is not. That's the only bit I really care about--seeing that this PrE not become a waste of space, but a realistic and useful option for wizards.

I agree 100%.

[Angar]

Well, I have 6-7 toons for the shroud. All of them complete. No one "farms." People stopped "farming" the Shroud before Mod 7 came out. I'm still baffled that people have regressed back to that old tactic. The sheer preponderance of 1-4 runs lately amazes me.

You are assuming that everyone here has played for a long period of time and has multiple toons with more greensteel crafting components than they will ever need. The fact is, I run into far more new players or players returning from 2-3 years ago (myself included) than I do Vets with nearly unlimited resources and 100 shroud completions under their belt. Personally, I quit the game before Mod 2 came out, as did everyone I knew, but that does not mean that everyone did. Perhaps people should stop for a second and think about what is affected OTHER than a capped toon.. When almost 100% of new players in this game will never reach past level 10, does it really make sense to gear every change to the Vets?

Before anyone freaks out and calls me a troll, I want to agree that PM is pretty worthless in the second half of the game, and not exactly worthwhile at any point, as are half the prestige classes in this game. I, as most of you, had intentions of GR'ing my wiz and speccing to PM, which now seems like a horrible idea.

But half the arguments here are based on players who already have a wizard and are looking to change the end-game viability with this prestige enhancement. The developers have to cater to all the players, including the F2P newbies who don't have a clue about upper end game mechanics (or care, for that matter).

I recall very well playing my wiz 3 years ago, when SP was always in short supply, potions almost non-existent, and running out of SP meant taking a back seat so the rest of the group could get you to the next shrine. Given a mid-level look at the game, a wizard with PM PrE has the ability to continue to be valuable to a group when the inevitible happens and he runs out of SP. Yes, they need to address the healing issue, particularly if they intend you to get within melee range to use your basically free attack. However, being able to average 30 dps and summon a skellie to aid the party is far better than sitting back slinging an 8 dps wand that has 50 charges. Keep in mind, we are talking mid-levels here.

Now, look at post-level 14 content. Regular quests wouldn't change much if your caster was PM spec'd. Sure, the dps would be lower on firewall, but they would be landing finger more often, and face it, finger is every bit as important in post-14 content as firewall. Plus, a simple gear swap still makes the caster viable for dps with those other spells - just not as viable as a pure min/max caster.
Look at raids: So what if the caster can only drop a 480 damage crit-wall instead of a 550+ damage crit-wall? Not exactly game-crippling. Shroud? I say with the added DC on necromancy, finger and wail are far more effective. If you are relying on your caster to be able to max out dps on harry, well, you are building your groups wrong then. Reaver - finger/wail vs 20-30% more firewall damage.. once again, caster is better with necro spells and still has a decent firewall, just not max'd. Plus there are more hps to help prevent death, something more important than a little extra dps on the air ele's. Hound - same thing. SoS - toss up.. faster insta-kills, slower firewall kills. Tor - dragons would be tougher, but once again, still have polar ray/firewall/disintigrate, just slightly less powerful on fire/ice. DQ, Titan, etc - yeah, PM loses an edge, but never loses total viability, and in any case, nobody runs these at their intended level anyway, so it isn't like the caster is underpowered here.

So you have a *slightly* less viable group oriented wizard with abilties that will seldom if ever come into play on top level raids. You have a healing issue that needs some resolution. Is it game breaking to take PM as a PrE? I hardly think so. Is it *better* to take PM as a PrE? Not really, but it is a change from the cookie cutter wizard who is trying to be a sorc only with far less SP and the ability to change out spells. Perhaps the upside is the challenge of playing a "situational" wiz instead of a firewall slinging generi-toon?

The best part is, a properly built PM in the hands of someone who knows how to play it is still going to outperform a traditional wiz or sorc in the hands of someone who doesn't know his place in those top end raids. Heck, I ran the shroud with a sorc the other night who, despite it being his 4th run, didn't know how to regen sp or find the crystal in part 2. This was a level 20 sorc.. A week before I was in a pug and the leader was the caster, throwing max/emp fireballs at Harry and screaming how he was knockin that fool upside the head with his fireballs! Give me an underpowered wiz that likes to play with dead people but knows how to play, over a 20 sorc who doesn't know how to play - any day of the week.

To the Devs - yes, please do something to make a wiz that has to "melee" be able to heal in some fashion that is dependable, and make the forms more like a "stance". Fix those and people will spend money to change to a Pale Master, even if it doesn't make the best min/max caster.

[Dcloak]

You are assuming that everyone here has played for a long period of time ....

Well said Angar. I was looking forward to this PrE. I TR'd my 1st char.. The wiz in my Sig. At level 12 now, I have not yet taken any pre req feats for PM.

Hopefully, there will be changes on the final release notes that sway my decision, otherwise for me at high levels, this PrE is not worth taking other than for a different flavor.

[Angelus_dead]

But half the arguments here are based on players who already have a wizard and are looking to change the end-game viability with this prestige enhancement. The developers have to cater to all the players, including the F2P newbies who don't have a clue about upper end game mechanics (or care, for that matter).

An "f2p newbie" is the kind of player least able to cope with 3 minutes of healing deficiency, and also will spend less time around monsters that have good saves against Finger of Death.

[Zaodan]

Dear Turbine,

this PrE sucks.

Thanks.