Trap Monkey Rogue Advice

[Dragenesis]

I'm looking at building my first rogue and I want it to be, first and foremost, a halfling trap monkey. Since the starting str of a halfling is 6, I think I would have to invest quite a bit of points into str to make my damage reasonable. So first question is:

1) What base str do I need to be reasonable/good in combat in the late game assuming non-uber equipment?

I was also thinking about splashing monk for the ac and leaving my str at base 6. This will deny me access to the Cheat Death capstone.

2) What is better: cheat death or splash?

Thanks in advance guys.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Trap Monkey Rogue Advice

I stopped reading here. Such a build is not useful in DDO past L8 or 10. Until you understand this you will not be able to put together a build that you won't regret later.

You want to be an Assassin or an Accrobat, and either way death and killing is your business. Traps are something that you do on the side. Understand that even ranger or wiz with 1 level or rogue can deal with every trap and lock in the game save one, that stuff is just not important to focus on.

[Lleren]

At minimum you want to have enough strength to be able to pick up the power attack feat.

[malicia]

I'm looking at building my first rogue and I want it to be, first and foremost, a halfling trap monkey. Since the starting str of a halfling is 6, I think I would have to invest quite a bit of points into str to make my damage reasonable. So first question is:

1) What base str do I need to be reasonable/good in combat in the late game assuming non-uber equipment?

I was also thinking about splashing monk for the ac and leaving my str at base 6. This will deny me access to the Cheat Death capstone.

2) What is better: cheat death or splash?

Thanks in advance guys.

I cannot help you with the rogue capstone, testing has show it is less than spectacular but this will likely be down to personal preference. Most pure-ish rogues will take 1 fighter for the feat, 2 paladin for the saves (make CHA investment at build time to do this), 2 ranger for free TWF and bow strength, or 1/2 monk for feats/AC

However this Trap Monkey business is starting to get interesting.

Remember that with a 14 base int and adequate search/disable items, plus keeping the skills maxed as you level, will let you hit most every trap in the game (including the elite ones) once you cap your character.

A rogue who can only disable traps is a liability to the group, you need to be good at something else, im glad to see you are asking questions about STR.

For a finesse build, you should likely start with as much str as you can muster while keeping your DEX high enough to qualify for GTWF. With the rest of your points spread between INT and CON and optinally CHA (bear in mind youll still eventually be able to whip a no-fail heal scroll even with an 8 cha given enough work). 14 STR to start with on a DEX build is a good number, 12 might be doable if you are using 28 point builds. You will have to tome DEX probably, its best to TOME dex when you are using it to get TWF, to free up points at creation for more useful things. Being halfling you will have +5 dex from enhancements (rogue+halfling) which means if you start with 15 +2 (tome for GTWF) +5 levels +5 Enhancements +6 item + 3 exceptional = 36 DEX which is plenty high enough. Remeber tho, you need 13 str for power attack, so 12 STR and a +1 tome. and as the DDO gods have long since proclaimed, if you wish to do melee dps you will take Power Attack.

For a Str build you still want to get 17 Base DEX if youre after GTWF(so 15 if you can get a +2 dex tome from the store or 16 if you just have a +1 or only have the plat to afford a +1) BUT you want your level ups to go into STR. I wouldnt recommend starting any lower than a 15 STR if you wanna go STR based. If you wanna go acrobat and swing the stick, you dont need Dex for much other than reflex saves so can shift soe of that over to possibly hit 16 STR, although you should probably not be looking at a halfling for this as it is extremely expensive at build time for a halfling to hit 16 STR.

As for levelling up, i suggest you spend your early game Mechanic specced, so you may hit all the traps. It is not a good idea to overinvest in INT at the start purely for trap skills, just so that you can hit the early traps, as it will all be wasted by the end game.

Once you get to level 12/13ish and you get your crippling strike you should swap over to Assassin as you base skills+item will be fine to cover mostly anything. The one trap in the game that it wont cover you for, is a pointless goal to shoot for. It guards a chest with bad loot.

Remember though, as you are levelling, you should be carrying:

1. A stack of Heroism Potions
2. The best Search/Disable (optionally spot) items for your level. Buy them often
3. Rogue Skill Boost - Dont neglect it, and use it before every trap you try and Disable,
4. Fox's Cunning wand/potion/scrolls until you get a +4 INT item

Make sure you got all this. Make sure you use all this especially if it is a nasty elite trap that will be critical to your quest success. It is ok to spend your early game with a trap focus, but once you head out to Gianthold and Beyond, you should really think twice about ever spending a single action point or god forbid a feat slot on anything that is related to Traps. Best to build your rogue for GTWF/Acrobat, take Mechanic enhancement in early game, then switch to assassin/acrobat.

[Glockduck]

The Trapsmith class is not a route I would go. It is not needed and you would regret it later.

As for your choice in halfling, great choice! Halfling guile and cunning are awesome enhancements, that you will have access too.

As far as your choice of STR. I will tell you that a base str of 6 you will regret before you get out of Water Works.

I have build both str and dex based rogues. I favor strength base rogues. You need to remember even as a high dex rogue using weapon finesse. Your dex bonus adds to your "to hit" not your damage. Your strength adds to your damage. There are many mobs out there, (as you level higher) will have a natural DR. With a weak sauce "6" strength, you wont be able to pick up a short sword, let along do any damage with it. Not to mention. You will be too weak to carry anything of wieght in your backpack.

Even if you are going for a dex build, I wouldnt advise anything lower than a "12" for strength. (12 base + 6 item + 2 tome= 20) That will work.


But for heavens sake: There is no excuse for any rogue to blow or miss any traps in this game. (until much higher levels, still that is a small number)

Goggles are your friend. (spot/search/disable) you can upgrade them every odd level starting at lv 3 (3/5/7/9/11/13) use them. Place on your hotbar with your rogue talents. Have spot equiped. (you sense the trap) click on your hotbar to put non your search goggles. (woot! you found it!) click on your hotbar again for your disable goggles(Nice work, it didnt blow up!)

Heroism pots: add +2 to your skills (spot/search/disable)
fox pots: add +4 intel. to help your search skill (+2 and stacks with heroism for a total of +4 to search)
Owls pots: add +4 to wisdom. This helps your spot skill by +2 and yes stacks with heroism

So as a level 3 rogue. You can have goggles +3 (spot/search/disable) +2 heroism +2/fox/owl rogue skill boost for +2 = +9 to spot and search +7 disable. With maxed skills as a rogue in search/spot/disable you wont miss a trap! Now continue this all the way through as you level picking up new googles at 5,7,9 and so on.

Once you hit level 9 and wearing +4 items. The owl/fox pots for emergency boost, no longer work. Heroism does as well as a bard for a little extra boost.


Acrobat or Assassin is the way to build. It depends what you like to do. Do you like to sneak around and pick off mobs focused on other party members. Do you 'plink' with a bow, to curse or banish to make the melees job easier? Do you like to equip weapons in both hands, and go in guns a blazin? Maybe you want to multiclass ranger for tempest? (twf and itwf for free)

My advice to you is to really look at the builds already posted on the boards. see what strikes you and go from there. It will save you much time and frustration.

[Bernaise]

+1 Rep to Malicia as for a great post. For every thread where someone asks about trapsmithing you get all the trolls coming out telling you that's not how they play which has no relation to the OP.

If the OP finds out later that he wants more than being a Trap Monkey, let them reincarnate later and do it different/better.

For the OP, rather than focus on the Capstone take a harder look at the Prestige Enhancements. Those will have a greater impact on your build path. Each of the three paths are good in their own right.

[SneakThief]

For every thread where someone asks about trapsmithing you get all the trolls coming out telling you that's not how they play which has no relation to the OP.

If the OP finds out later that he wants more than being a Trap Monkey, let them reincarnate later and do it different/better.

Well, the people suggesting not to focus on trapsmithing arent trolling. They are trying to be helpful. And finding out later in the game that your character isnt any fun to play anymore is not good for business. We want people to stick around, not leave because they dont want to pay Turbine $15 to reincarnate.

As someone that has rolled about every kind of rogue you can make and splashed it with everything but favored soul, I can testify that with only 2 levels of rogue, no enhancements, and no feats, you can do every trap in the game on elite (-1). Focusing on something other than trapsmithing is a wise thing. That doesnt mean neglect it, but dont make it the main focus.

To the OP: As others have said. 12 STR min (get a +1 tome off the AH so you can get PA). On a 1/2ling it hurts point wise to go over that.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

+1 Rep to Malicia as for a great post. For every thread where someone asks about trapsmithing you get all the trolls coming out telling you that's not how they play which has no relation to the OP.

If the OP finds out later that he wants more than being a Trap Monkey, let them reincarnate later and do it different/better.

For the OP, rather than focus on the Capstone take a harder look at the Prestige Enhancements. Those will have a greater impact on your build path. Each of the three paths are good in their own right.

I can see you are pretty new to the game. It's not trolling to warn the OP that he is looking at a path that will make him unhappy by the middle of the game. We are trying to save him rerolling or handing Turbine $15 at that time. Back when the game was young, we were all trap monkeys, when the level cap went from 10-12 that became less useful, then when it went to 14 we were all left with rogues that didn't cut it without massive rework. Now that the cap is 20, its very clear the direction Turbine has chosen to go with rogues. Sure, having trap monkies have a purpose might have been smart, but Turbine built the game to make them unneeded. Any good L1 rogue splash can handle all but 1 trap in the game.

[Bernaise]

I can see you are pretty new to the game

You may want to take a gander at my join date.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You may want to take a gander at my join date.

With the date combined with your very low post count I had assumed you were one of the many that joined back then and then quickly left and returned when things went free, essentially making you a returning player that really had no past knowledge. Sorry for giving you the benefit of the doubt, I guess it wasn't lack of experience that resulted in your bad advice.

[Bernaise]

It's a good thing we have people around like you to keep us informed on how to build the exact same characters that you have. Truly a time saver.

If the OP finds out later that he wants more than being a Trap Monkey, let them reincarnate later and do it different/better.

We want people to stick around, not leave because they dont want to pay Turbine $15 to reincarnate.

Correcting myself (and you), If the OP determines mistakes were made along the way many can be corrected by visiting a trainer and reallocating your
Enhancement points. As for reincarnation, when update 3 hits there will be more options available to correct mistakes on characters in progress rather than having
to wait until capping. As for player retention, people will come and go especially when something new and shiny comes along. There's nothing that can
be accomplished on a forum to correct this.

To the OP, my apologies that answers to your questions devolve into this type of nonsense which is why I generally stay off the forums to begin with.

[Nott]

Lorien is giving good advice.

Yes, Bernaise, with the next update, someone that makes the mistake of being trap-focused (without a useful skill to use the rest of the time) will have more options that don't require getting to level 20 first. Lorien said nothing about level required to fix such a mistake, only the $15. Reincarnation (lesser) will still cost on the order of $15.

It doesn't take much research on the DDO forums to see that rogues are an under-estimated class -- by which I mean a class that some players don't want in their party unless they know there are traps to be disarmed -- and then they only want at most a single rogue. The reason for this is not that the class is broken or unable to contribute beyond trap skills. The reason is it's very easy to build a rogue that is broken and unable to contribute beyond trap skills, and the sole focus of "I'm gonna disarm me sum trapz" is a recipe for such a useless rogue. The only way the stereotype of rogues being useless will be overcome is by rogues not building themselves this way.

[habanaman]

I think it's the arrogant way in which Lorien gives advice that's unhelpful. With phrases such as "I stopped reading after this". ohhh ^^
The OP's question was a very reasonable one, and deserved better than the disparaging response given. It puts newbs off asking for advice. We weren't all born with the knowledge of DDO's game mechanics, and neither do we all want to copy the same cookie-cutter builds. There's more to the game, for many players, than just level20

[GottDDO]

Just remember that everyone's opinion is biased. People claiming trap monkeys are important like playing that type. Those that chastise others for that type of build play a "dps" build.

I didn't build a certain type. I just made a rogue.

I was doing a Gianthold quest the other night, on elite. I'm not sure which one it was.

It was an electrical trap, outside one of the doors. My rogue was level 15. I rolled 16+45 and didn't disarm. I equipped my +6 int ring and boosted and rolled a 1+53 and blew up the trap, killing half my group.

That was the first trap I'd blown up on that character, and it made me realize you can never have enough trap skills.

[PopeJual]

I stopped reading here. Such a build is not useful in DDO past L8 or 10. Until you understand this you will not be able to put together a build that you won't regret later.

This.

The important thing is to understand that if you are focusing on traps, then you will be missing out on most of what makes Rogues great. You can be a well rounded Rogue and still get more than 95% of the traps in the game at level on Normal and Hard. You can push to be simply AMAZING at traps, but doing so will require significant sacrifices in other areas as you spend lots of action points and feats to improve your trap busting abilities.

One other option is to make a trap busting Wizard. I'm having a tremendous time with my Rogue2/Wizard 18 (just recently capped). I invested 0 feats and just 2 action points into my trap finding/busting abilities and I can get every trap that I've come across in the game with only one exception (that one Gianthold trap that I couldn't get at level - I can get it now).

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116560 for a generic build for the character.

Also, Lorien, Glock and Sneakthief are not trolling you. They're just trying to keep you from going down a road that you'll regret later.

You can be very good at traps with the right gear and a minimal investment in action points and Int. You just won't be super-amazing-mega-trap-guy. On the other hand, you'll have superlative DPS while the super-amazing-mega-trap-guy will be barely an afterthought in combat.

And there's way more combat in DDO than traps.

[PopeJual]

It was an electrical trap, outside one of the doors. My rogue was level 15. I rolled 16+45 and didn't disarm. I equipped my +6 int ring and boosted and rolled a 1+53 and blew up the trap, killing half my group.

That was the first trap I'd blown up on that character, and it made me realize you can never have enough trap skills.

I'll just chime in here and say that it's okay to lose your entire group to a trap every once in a while. The large majority of traps can be avoided and the folks in the party also need to learn to stand back when someone is disarming traps for this very reason.

Also, as long as you have at least one person with UMD and a Raise Dead scroll or a Raise Dead clicky or your healer is still alive, then losing half the group is really not a big deal.

Even if everyone with the ability to Raise Dead has died, you're still okay as long as you can get their stones to a shrine.

It's never a bad thing to have more trap skills. It is a bad thing to make major sacrifices in other areas to get those trap skills.

(Please note that I'm not disagreeing wiht GottDDO - I'm just using the post to emphasize my point.)

[samthedagger]

Speaking as a halfling trap monkey myself, I can offer a few words of advice.

First, I had to reroll my rogue twice to get a set of ability scores that worked for me. I finally settled on Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8. That array has served me well. The extra Int helps me find and disable traps, plus gives me more skill points to play around with. The Wis helps with Spot and Listen (which can be useful if you haven't memorized the location of every trap in the game) and gives me a little boost to Will saves, which are low for rogues. A good Dex is essential to almost any rogue build since it helps you avoid the effects of traps (with a high Reflex save and evasion you will be virtually untouchable to 99% of traps).

I tried Str of both 6 and 8 and found a couple things wrong with a particularly low Str score. The first was ray of enfeeblement. Being laid low by a 1st level spell is embarrassing. The second is carrying capacity. When you start to do long quest chains and raids, being put at medium or heavy load easily seriously restricts the amount of loot you can carry. You can solve this problem in one of two ways. Either you never loot any suit of armor no matter how awesome or you invest at least a few points in Str. Don't skimp on Str.

However, a little Str goes a long way. As a rogue, you don't need a whole lot of Str to do what you need to do. Since you'll probably be wanting a high Dex anyway, take Weapon Finesse and hitting monsters becomes simple. As for helping with damage, trust me when I say the extra couple points of damage that might come with a higher Str only matter in Korthos. The vast majority of your damage-dealing potential lies in your ability to sneak attack every time. Always wait for someone else to aggro before attacking, use sneaking whenever possible (even if you don't have any ranks in Hide and Move Silently), and swap targets once your target has focused on you to a target who is focused on someone else. Carry weapons specialized for undead, constructs, and elementals (greater bane is good for all, holy of pure good is good for undead) so that you can contribute to the battle even when you can't sneak attack. Crit-based combat builds have the same problem against these types of monsters and they do the same thing.

I don't feel like I "sacrificed" anything to build as a mechanic. I spent 0 feats and only the requisite enhancements for mechanic. Pretty much everything else went towards my ability to contribute in combat. As soon as the traps are done, I hop into battle and deal damage that puts some barbarians to shame. Listen to the people who say that focusing on traps should not be your primary goal. It's good to be able to handle traps and IMHO worth the investment of a few action points. But there are many other things in the game that you need to be able to do besides traps. No one should be a one-trick pony.

[ajprokos]

I stopped reading here. Such a build is not useful in DDO past L8 or 10. Until you understand this you will not be able to put together a build that you won't regret later.

You want to be an Assassin or an Accrobat, and either way death and killing is your business. Traps are something that you do on the side. Understand that even ranger or wiz with 1 level or rogue can deal with every trap and lock in the game save one, that stuff is just not important to focus on.

Lorien, with 1 lvl into rogue, how can one be able to do every trap/door? I have the +2 to skills, maxed out rogue skill points (I first started as rogue, then went 2 cleric lvls, 2 monk lvls, and rest cleric lvls for a build of 17/2/1) -- but as I am lvling up, currently 7, I can only due normal and some hard traps.

What abilities and skills should I aim for? And what +skill armor?

Thank you

[PopeJual]

Lorien, with 1 lvl into rogue, how can one be able to do every trap/door? I have the +2 to skills, maxed out rogue skill points (I first started as rogue, then went 2 cleric lvls, 2 monk lvls, and rest cleric lvls for a build of 17/2/1) -- but as I am lvling up, currently 7, I can only due normal and some hard traps.

What abilities and skills should I aim for? And what +skill armor?

Thank you

Clerics only get 2 skill points per level. That's enough to keep Search at .5 skill points per level and Disable Device at .5 skill points per level - and you ignrore Concentration and any other skills that you might want to put points in. At 14 Int (12 Human), you can keep Search and Disable Device maxxed if you ignore EVERY other skill. As a Human with 14 Int, you could max Search and Disable Device and keep Open Locks at 1/2 ranks. That's enough to do every trap in the game that you're really going to care about.

You're sacrificing quite a lot to make that happen, however. There's no real synergy between Int for traps and any of the class features for Rogue, Cleric or Monk. I understand taking a pair of Rogue levels OR a pair of Monk levels for Evasion on your Cleric, but taking both seems like a poor choice. Also, any class that has 2 skill points per level is going to be very hard pressed to do traps well with one exception - Wizard.

Wizards have such crazy high Int scores that you will have all the skill points you need to keep Search, Disable Device and Concentration maxxed while still having a few skill points left over to take care of the other skills you want like Use Magic Device, Balance, Use Magic Device, Jump, Tumble, and Use Magic Device.

Rangers and Bards have enough skill points per level that they can get the job done with just one Rogue level even with a relatively low Int score of 14.

[3E..Stumagoo..]

as someone who is playing a str based assassin rogue and has only 6 months on the game I am someone who has thought very similar to you. Now being the sort of person I am I did a lot of research on building my first rogue and all I saw was DON'T do trap monkey. all in similar vain to what is above. So I went with a lean mean killer and due to my main guildie I play with being a paladin we make a great team, he rambo's in and I slide in from the side and SA the hell out of everything. this was going great in korthos where I could get away with none or minimal points in any trap skills and a small amount in open lock for that lovely teaser of a chest.

Jump forward a month or so (yeah I am going slow at this game) I am at level 6 and about to start down the assassin path and I start getting all the flak we dont need you for damage we want you to do the traps nothing else just traps, rogues are no good at dps anyway I got told and from there it got worse.

My pali buddy is really a good sort and was really polite about this situation but was quite adamant that I needed to forget damage and respec as a trapmonkey (this along with get a heavy armor feat you are too squishy). I asked what do I do then in the heap of quests that have no traps, if I have no other skills then why would anyone be interested in a rogue for the likes of Irestone inlet or Kobold assualt even Gianthold for later on? His response matched a lot of others, thats the price of playing a rogue all you are good for is traps.

So I reset my enhancements and set up as a dedicated trap monkey, totally gimp for anything but traps my dps was about 1/4 my earlier damage and (this is the best bit) there was a lot of comments from my usual party members wondering why everything was so much harder to kill. But I could do traps and the +3 gear from korthos worked for me right up to lvl 9 needing foxes cunning only on elite.

at lvl 8 I was able to start back on my assassin path and continue to add a point or 2 every rank to my trap skills I later obtained +10 goggles for my 3 trap skills from the AH and now at lvl 11 have had 1 fail/blown box on a lvl 13 elite quest.

my advice, and its a hard line that opposes a lot of comments here and I wish it wasnt so but if you can have a final goal in mind when you roll your toon but build trap monkey for the first 4-6 lvls (assuming pure rogue) then start to branch into your eventual goal then you will get what I feel is a good balance. I throw my spare points into the traps and when I hit lvl 10 had 16 or 17 on my trap stats this coupled with the +10 goggles for each of the skills and I am having no issues as yet with my trap abilities. I am only at assassin 1 with 2 lvls of enhancements for each of my trap skills but my damage is now up there again with some of our best guild melee members. unless its against the undead then I am stuffed. but I am still easily getting traps our 10 wiz 2 rog is having troubles with an I am only lvl 11