Cleric Reform for DDO!

[Elsbet]

No, it's the cleric's fault.

Obviously, there are situations where the Cleric literally can't keep up. But 9 times out of 10, when I've seen a Cleric complain about range/LOS issues, it's the Cleric's fault for not properly positioning themselves.

Yeah, because clerics always run down the hall, through the door and around the corner headlong into an ambush without the rest of the party.

I don't complain about range, LOS issues. I just don't heal that person. I stick with the bulk of the party and if someone runs off or around a corner, it isn't my problem. It's theirs. I'm not dying to save some monkey on crack.

If they ask why I'm not tossing them heals, I'll tell them it is because they ran like a monkey on crack down the hall, through the door and around the corner headlong into an ambush without the rest of the party.

If you choose to run out of LOS/range of a cleric who is with the party, that is your problem, not the clerics. Carry a pot.

[vhortex]

Yeah, because clerics always run down the hall, through the door and around the corner headlong into an ambush without the rest of the party.

I don't complain about range, LOS issues. I just don't heal that person. I stick with the bulk of the party and if someone runs off or around a corner, it isn't my problem. It's theirs. I'm not dying to save some monkey on crack.

If they ask why I'm not tossing them heals, I'll tell them it is because they ran like a monkey on crack down the hall, through the door and around the corner headlong into an ambush without the rest of the party.

If you choose to run out of LOS/range of a cleric who is with the party, that is your problem, not the clerics. Carry a pot.

good point, on one of the raids that we have in tempest, someone zerg up ahead and just ran past the monsters.. and died on the next 2 areas.. he was screaming for heal and even used his mic and complain the team was not supporting him. poor little "wannabe", we are busy helping the 2 clerics that almost die because they are chasing him for heals.

self sufficient is always the question such as when i use my bard, a lot of people complain when my bard wont use my sp to heal myself and see me die. they are so dumb that i am using wands to keep up for my low hp healing and to keep them alive.

i was dishing more damage with my bard and occationally throws them blur and still they want me to use my mana to heal myself and keep me alive. they even laughed when i said that i can't cast due to a need of a item to be worn. i am a battle war chanter, my warchant, blur and other buffs keeps them alive par with my wands. the next 3 quest that they complain about my mana and not healing myself, i simply stop buffing and healing.. party wiped out and i carry the stones of 2 partymates who understand that i am not the personal nanny that they need. 3 stones was left on the farthest area possible away from the shrine.

it is a fact that most whiners are the ones who does not even care to share the cost of wands, mana pots and does not even care for the safety of the healers. take a list of them and avoid them, they are mostly the ones when you are in a raid and you died or get thrown away into "never never land" who will be happy to take the chest or any loots and leave the dungeon leaving you behind and you are trying to keep them alive all of the time.

[ApesAmongUs]

(2) In table top gaming, no self-respecting PC would ever refuse healing potions (POTs).

Refuse? nope. Buy? even more of a no. In TT D&D (3rd edition), healing potions are ****.

If I'm a "healer," then shouldn't I get a discount or something? POTs and wands cost me just as much as they would cost a PC.

But you use wands and the fighter doesn't and those are a fraction of the cost of potions - so, yes, you do get a discount.

[MysterX]

I'm often asked, am I a "battle cleric" or a "healer." I don't understand the question. Clerics by their definition are BOTH.

That's why I always answer this question, "I am a D&D cleric."

[Thuddczar]

Brin, regarding your OP,

I played P&P Dungeons and Dragons back in the late 1970's, through part of the 80's. In the late 80's I began playing online games on Compuserve. (MUDs, Island of Kesmai, etc) Since then, I have played mostly MMO's, and, on occasion, when given the chance, a session or two of P&P Dungeons and Dragons. I understand what you want. In theory, I want that too. But, in the context of an online game, it's very difficult to implement. I believe that, to a large degree, that could be because in a "real world" setting, (if the things that occur in D&D could happen IRL), what happens in P&P and tabletop games would not work. MMO's and RL are not really turn-based.

Specialization and maximization are sort've inevitable, whether you're discussing something like an MMO, an orchestra, amanufacturing strategy or even a nation's economy. I think what you're complaining about is essentially something which is an evolutionary function of MMO's, propelled by a desire for efficient [read: mission success] outcomes.

I won't disagree with you that it may not produce the most fun, nor would I disagree that the purpose of games SHOULD be fun, but, realistically speaking, people will tend to expect (and, as a result proliferate) what are now considered classic or traditional roles for classes. I think that, to a large extent, the introduction of new classes, and races is an attempt on the part of developers to let everyone find his or her most enjoyable niche within the framework of their given game.

Just out of curiosity - do you think you might enjoy playing something like a WF Paladin?

[Zlingerdark]

I got to say I actually enjoy healing people. Although my cleric is not specced out to be anything but a nannybot. Granted she is only level 4 now, and pretty much everything everybody said about folks running off ahead of the group, or simply splitting off entirely from the group is true. I am amazed at the lack of coordination of most PUGs, and up until now this cleric has done nothing but PUGs. She won't solo at all. She is not yet in any guild.

I do this on purpose, and no, I am not looking for punishment by ungratefuls. I am still fumbling around with the UI and hotbars of caster types. It is a whole different animal than being a melee build. So I figure what better place to learn than in horrid PUGs? LOL!

Now for the forgiving of lost fools...

Yes, as a healing nannybot I have to forgive these zerger-aheads, or no-healing-between-battles folks for their foolishness. I do heal stupid, as best as I can, I just cannot cure the malady. Actually, I heal everybody without any prejudice. The most important thing to me is who is closer to death, NOW!? Heal them. Move on to next closest... and so on until everybody is within safety zone of HPs. I will heal in between battles as well as I have time to and spell points available. And if the group is not too busy zerging ahead of me.

Will I actually battle mobs? Only if they come to me. And even then I work my way towards the DPSer, while pumping my measly STR with Bull Strength if there is going to be a lot of fighting. I would like to buff the party if they will let me. Most won't even bother waiting a second to let me bless the group, and cast shields and whatever spells they need. Thus I have tons of spell points to use for heals. And heal I do! It really cost me nothing to heal, and really expect nothing in return other than a quick, "Thanks!"

I love bringing, or keeping folks from death. There have been numerous situations where folks were incapped and I was able to bring them back to their feet before they could die. Nothing feels better to me than to do that. As well as timing my heals to keep the whole party alive. I consider it a personal failure to do otherwise. I make mistakes from time to time, and perhaps I am not as attentive as I should be 100% of the time. But then again, nobody should always rely on the cleric to be there for them. Sometimes you have to save yourself, because I may be in the middle of saving another, or you are just out of reach.

But I will continue to PUG away with this cleric and use her as a learning experience, and the PUGging world as my experimental healing lab.

[TheDjinnFor]

Stuff

As a still-learning lowbie cleric, I find it should be important to share with you some nuggets of spell-preparation wisdom that I was lucky enough to come across on the forums when I was in your position; you know, the type that's level 4-5 and just getting to grips with mana management and healing after playing a melee and always finding myself annoyed at the "zerging melees".

-Command (Lvl 1): For Ogres, trolls, and big-uglies. One level 1 spell to knock them down at the beginning of the battle for 6 seconds saves you 5 level 2 or 3 healing spells during or after the battle.
-Soundburst (Lvl 2): For trash mobs, especially casters. A level 2 spell that does area of effect damage (1d8 sonic), hits casters where they're vulnerable (Fort saves), and will guaranteed stun any waterwork kobold, irestone hobgoblin or marketplace Troglodyte on anything but maybe elite (and, again, hits multiple targets)... Completely overpowered. Never have to heal until house quests.
-Curse (Lvl 3): For orange and red-named bosses. Drop a curse for a huge debuff, then a command if it's not red-named, and it will save you a couple heals, for sure.
-Holy Smite (Lvl 4): When soundburst loses its luster (melee-mob fort saves start kicking in). An area-of-effect attack that blinds evil targets (50% miss) for 6 seconds and does 5d6 damage? Sure. Although, Chaos Hammer > This versus lawful enemies.

Any cleric that isn't first into a fight ("I'm a zerging cleric till raids, GOML!") and doesn't fire off one of the AoE spells at the biggest huddle of mobs or curse+command (or whatever is level appropriate...) a boss isn't doing their job, IMO. And you'll find your SP bar fuller than ever. Give this interesting thread a shot:

LINK

Also, Mass Aid > Bless in every way, shape, and form. They don't stack, so never use bless when you hit level 5. Try using hotkeys on multiple hotbars (ctrl+z to ctrl-b, then alt-z to alt-b, then shift-z to shift-b, then meta+z to meta+b, and for group buffs ctrl+shift+z to ctrl+shift+b, then alt+shift+z to alt+shift+b, and you've got 30 spells at your finger-tips) and if you take them one- or two-at-a-time as you get them on your spell-list and prepared list, you'll have them all memorized by the time you have all 30.

[MissErres]

Unless I'm in a raid, my clerics are usually in the middle of the fight, killing stuff, healing myself and everyone else around me. None of them can hit for s***, but can dish a helluva lot of damage via bladebarrier, destruct, banish, implosion. And quite effective at crowd control as well. Hell, even in the Shroud and Reaver they are not "just healers". So the whole question of "are you a healing cleric or a battle cleric?" should really be asked as: "are you gonna heal our sorry asses or do we need to find someone else to do that?".

[DrNuegebauer]

Hot cleric tip #1

in between fight scenarios, keep an eye on your parties health bars. Those who top themselves up deserve more healing, because when your mana runs out, they might have enough pots to live on!

[ChaelaAnne]

But you use wands and the fighter doesn't and those are a fraction of the cost of potions - so, yes, you do get a discount.

Actually, a fighter can very easily buy a wand and chuck it to the cleric for their healing. But to expect a cleric to provide ALL healing to you, at no cost, in lvls where a large chunk of the healing HAS to be done by consumables is rude. The best bet is ALWAYS to take responsibility for your own play though, and carry enough SELF healing to heal from dead to full 3 times.

I have to say, if I'm clericing, the people that will be dropped fastest after one quest are the ones that willfully refuse to take care of themselves. IE: refuse to self heal in between fights, start yelling "cursed!!!" when in VOD (This REALLY makes me crazy... I've got enough to do without worrying about peoples curses. And EVERYONE needs to take care of their own curses, unless previously agreed upon before the raid starts.) or blindness/curse/desease/what have you. By NOT taking care of these yourself as you get them, you are pulling valuble time and resources away from the REST of your party, while the cleric tries and deals with your issues. In a hairy fight, this could result in a death of another party member, because you refuse to carry pots.

[noinfo]

BARBS, you're not as reckless, but prone to wondering. You're a PIT to fill for HP. Buy a **** shield!

Rogues, Rangers, and Bards, I watch over you before all other classes. You have a humility to you.

Lastly, I have on occasion been "tipped." Thank you so very much. Yes, that cure crit wand was 13,500 gp. Your contribution helps. Choose not to tip? No big deal. But I can do what the party allows.

~Akarris of Thelanis

lol cause a barb having an ac of 13 is so much better than 6 while raged and if the barb isn't raged why be a barb?

I agree a cleric can't heal round courners and if you run off you are on your own (specially the flighty monks :-p)

But if you think that a barb is going to take less damage while wearing a shield you are sadly mistaken.

Clerics tend to cost to run. I have 3 at end game and a fs on the way. They are not battle clerics, they are not heal bots, they do whatever role is best at the time. It normally costs me more to run them because I will scroll heal and use spell points offensively in most cases, in other times I will be full on healing, others I will grab my vorpal and wait for a 20.

If you are starting out it is going to cost you and there are times when you need to prioritise who you are going to heal, limited resources in a crisis etc. But make sure you make the right choice when you do because if you choose the wrong one it can be bad.

[Enochroot]

I picked your post for no good reason, there's so many new clerics' posting here. Hi, welcome. You'll get over your little rants in a while, if you learn how to really cleric.

Yeah, because clerics always run down the hall, through the door and around the corner headlong into an ambush without the rest of the party.

You would be a much more effective cleric if you did this. Having the cleric kite aggro is almost always the right option rather than anyone else. Pre-bb (and assuming no fw) it lets the melee fight one at a time. Post-bb, well, you want their aggro.

I don't complain about range, LOS issues. I just don't heal that person. I stick with the bulk of the party and if someone runs off or around a corner, it isn't my problem. It's theirs. I'm not dying to save some monkey on crack.

Why would you die? Just manage the aggro.

If they ask why I'm not tossing them heals, I'll tell them it is because they ran like a monkey on crack down the hall, through the door and around the corner headlong into an ambush without the rest of the party.

If you choose to run out of LOS/range of a cleric who is with the party, that is your problem, not the clerics. Carry a pot.

Hm, instead of being all high and mighty about your attitude you could just you know, pay attention to where they're going, CC the ambush, and keep on having a good time. Learn to play with the rest of the population, they're not going to stop doing what they're doing because of little forum rants (at least, they haven't in 3 years) - so just adapt your playstyle to THEM.


I know, it's asking a lot. It's easier to get all uppity and post your little "cleric rules" on the forums and in your bio. Then if things go wrong you can say "should've followed the rules, ain't my fault!" Win-win for everyone.

[Woody00]

I got to say I actually enjoy healing people. Although my cleric is not specced out to be anything but a nannybot. Granted she is only level 4 now,......

I had the same opinons when I started my cleric. Its my first caster class I had made in any MMO.Then changed them. Leveling up my cleric has been a blast compared to leveling up my pally but you will find that somtimes stupid is better off in your backpack till the next shrine. Its not to be mean but instead to save you your mana from constantly healing them and rezing them. And the amount of things that can be fixed by players carrying a handful of pots is remarkable. And telling your group mates that now may save you mana in the long run. Even if it means letting them walk around blinded for bit to drive the point home.

[Zarcoff]

BUFFS!! as a cleric I find it much easier for the party to survive with a full set of buffs, every possible scroll buff and I demand that every player is in my radius for them, takes like 2 minutes to do all buffs and then we go, the last buff I cast is aid and that is their signal that we are ready to move. Sa always I ask for donations and am not shy to tell the zergers that they can only move as fast as I can heal the whole party, now at lvl 14 I find that the players are more reseptive to such logic. My regular group from the guild is so effective at understanding this that we very rarely ever lose at any quest.

My advice is to teach those that don't understand, and please...casters dont burn all your spell points on trash mobs, conserve them for the real fights so you arent always asking me to mana as well.

[ApesAmongUs]

Actually, a fighter can very easily buy a wand and chuck it to the cleric for their healing.

Absolutely. And in my experience in this game, that is exactly what does happen during normal play of the game. As i have said before, I heal everything and have purchased exactly 2 wands in 18 levels of playing a cleric. I also bought 10 heal scrolls, but I haven't had to use any of them yet. And I have never purchased a single mana potion from the DDO store or from the auction.

But to expect a cleric to provide ALL healing to you, at no cost, in lvls where a large chunk of the healing HAS to be done by consumables is rude.

False dichotomy. Not only are "cleric heals everything for free" and "everyone is absolutely self sufficient" not the only options, but you actually stated one of the other options right at the beginning of this post. If you want to make an argument based on these silly extremes, it helps not to list other, more reasonable, options yourself.

Also, where is this magical place where the majority of healing comes from consumables? I haven't run into it yet. Maybe it exists somewhere post level 20 where the majority of players aren't currently playing at and where the majority of these complaints don't come from.

If people are going to complain about being put upon in a tiny fraction of the game that is accessible to an even tinier fraction of the player community, then it might help to put that disclaimer in the title somewhere so we know you're not talking about the other 99.9% of the game.

By NOT taking care of these yourself as you get them, you are pulling valuble time and resources away from the REST of your party, while the cleric tries and deals with your issues. In a hairy fight, this could result in a death of another party member, because you refuse to carry pots.

And in a hairy fight, chugging potions instead of swinging that vorpal can also cost the fight.

All this comes down to a prisoner's dilemma. Are people going to make decisions about how to maximize personal gain in the small scale or are they going to make decisions based on the best usage of resources to maximize gains overall.

[Kalari]

Maybe people need to learn how to play if your in such a thick of things that you cant back out to get a stat ailment then of course a cleric should be on you it happens raids especially.

But I dare someone to name me a normal quests where your so thick into things that if you got cursed, poisoned or blinded (all which come in potion form all which can be traded with colectibles for free versions of said items)

give me one good reason besides "i dont want to stop fighting" for not doing so? Honestly I dont come from just the cleric end my melees know when to back out in most situations to get myself so that the healer isnt over burdened and I think anyone making excuses to why they cant are probably folks I hope I never have to group with period. Find another crutch.

[Enochroot]

give me one good reason besides "i dont want to stop fighting" for not doing so? Honestly I dont come from just the cleric end my melees know when to back out in most situations to get myself so that the healer isnt over burdened and I think anyone making excuses to why they cant are probably folks I hope I never have to group with period. Find another crutch.

Because it's less efficient than a less efficient member of the party doing it for you?


(I'm not going to define in any way who the person is that's efficient or who is less, for the record)

[ChaelaAnne]

Absolutely. And in my experience in this game, that is exactly what does happen during normal play of the game. As i have said before, I heal everything and have purchased exactly 2 wands in 18 levels of playing a cleric. I also bought 10 heal scrolls, but I haven't had to use any of them yet. And I have never purchased a single mana potion from the DDO store or from the auction.

False dichotomy. Not only are "cleric heals everything for free" and "everyone is absolutely self sufficient" not the only options, but you actually stated one of the other options right at the beginning of this post. If you want to make an argument based on these silly extremes, it helps not to list other, more reasonable, options yourself.

Also, where is this magical place where the majority of healing comes from consumables? I haven't run into it yet. Maybe it exists somewhere post level 20 where the majority of players aren't currently playing at and where the majority of these complaints don't come from.

If people are going to complain about being put upon in a tiny fraction of the game that is accessible to an even tinier fraction of the player community, then it might help to put that disclaimer in the title somewhere so we know you're not talking about the other 99.9% of the game.


And in a hairy fight, chugging potions instead of swinging that vorpal can also cost the fight.

All this comes down to a prisoner's dilemma. Are people going to make decisions about how to maximize personal gain in the small scale or are they going to make decisions based on the best usage of resources to maximize gains overall.

I don't even know what to say about not buying consumables. In my experiance, running my cleric with pugs, not to go through any consumables at all is mind boggling. I have found at lower levels when people are taking more damage then blue bar can handle, particularly when limited with cure light and cure moderate wound spells, consumables such as wands are a life saver. I mean, I would be willing to guess that my experiance is more average then yours, but I could be wrong.

I'm not saying that everyone be self suffeciant ONLY, I'm saying that people should be prepaired. If the cleric dies, and you are between shrines, in a nasty fight, it's best to have pots on you, just in case.

As far as taking care of your own stat damage or curses or whatnot: I'm not going to stop healing a party so that I can take care of that. Does that make me a bad cleric? Perhaps, but I'm willing to take that. My guild can put up with my terrible clericing skills, and I'll avoid pulling her out for pugs.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Maybe people need to learn how to play if your in such a thick of things that you cant back out to get a stat ailment then of course a cleric should be on you it happens raids especially.

But I dare someone to name me a normal quests where your so thick into things that if you got cursed, poisoned or blinded (all which come in potion form all which can be traded with colectibles for free versions of said items)

give me one good reason besides "i dont want to stop fighting" for not doing so? Honestly I dont come from just the cleric end my melees know when to back out in most situations to get myself so that the healer isnt over burdened and I think anyone making excuses to why they cant are probably folks I hope I never have to group with period. Find another crutch.

Raging Brb is the only one.

And even he can stop for a moment and drink some healing pots.

(Madstone Rage too)