Did I make a mistake here?

[AylinIsAwesome]

I made a build for a Warchanter Bard and rolled her up last week, partly because having the Haggle would be nice (stuff's expensive when you buy them in sets of 100!), and party because I haven't played a Bard yet (and I wanted to).

So I built one that's 2 Fighter/2 Rogue/16 Bard. But then I've started to hear that Warchanters should stay pure for the extra +1 to hit from getting to leve 20.

So far, I've nailed out the important stuff either way to:

Multiclass:

1. Evasion
2. 2 extra feats - Khopesh and... Something else (I haven't decided what else I would drop yet...probably Extend. :\ )
3. 1d6+3 Sneak Attack
4. 18 extra HP (10 from Fighter Toughness 1, 8 from two Fighter levels)
5. +1 STR (from Fighter STR 1)
6. +2 Fort Save, +1 Reflex Save

Pure:

1. +2 Will Save
2. +1 bonus to damage, +1 to fear (if I remember correctly) and +2 to hit (I couldn't afford the last level of Inspired Attack at 6 APs).
3. 112 SP.

EDIT: Also I lose out on Tier 3 of Warchanter...if and when it's ever finished. *Angry.*

Though I'm not really that worried about the SP. A little iffy on the will save...but that can be made up for with items and such. The main thing I'm worried about is the +2 to hit. So...people that have run epics a lot, is the +2 to hit worth losing 18 HP, Evasion, Sneak Attack, extra STR and two bonus feats, or am I fine where I'm at?

Thanks.

(Build, for reference)

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.14
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
(2 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 240
Spell Points: 520 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 9

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             16                 24                   26
Dexterity            15                 17                   17
Constitution         14                 14                   14
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma             15                 15                   16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               6                 26                   26
Bluff                 2                  3                    3
Concentration         4                  4                    4
Diplomacy             2                  3                    3
Disable Device       n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                6                 26                   26
Heal                 -1                 -1                   -1
Hide                  4                  5                    5
Intimidate            2                  3                    3
Jump                  7                 13                   13
Listen               -1                 -1                   -1
Move Silently         4                  5                    5
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               26                   26
Repair               -1                 -1                   -1
Search               -1                 -1                   -1
Spot                  3                 17                   17
Swim                  3                  8                    8
Tumble                6                  7                    7
Use Magic Device      6                 26                   26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
Spell (1): Focusing Chant


Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Perform (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence
Spell (1): Remove Fear


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (2): Blur


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (2): Rage


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (2): Invisibility


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage
Spell (3): Good Hope


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (3): Dispel Magic


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (4): Dimension Door


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Song of Freedom


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Break Enchantment
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (6): Greater Shout
Spell (5): Summon Monster V
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song III
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery III

[BoBoDaClown]

Build looks fine.

True - a level 20 Bard brings better buffs to the table, but groups will be happy with yours - and you end up with a more powerful toon to play for personal fun.

Things you could have (not necessary) done:

-dropped charisma. (for instance my WC has 8).
-picked up another rogue level - depending on how much you like the level 6 spells.

If you want Inspired Attack three, you could get rid of some of your casting enhancements,
Hope that helps.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Build looks fine.

True - a level 20 Bard brings better buffs to the table, but groups will be happy with yours - and you end up with a more powerful toon to play for personal fun.

Things you could have (not necessary) done:

-dropped charisma. (for instance my WC has 8).
-picked up another rogue level - depending on how much you like the level 6 spells.

If you want Inspired Attack three, you could get rid of some of your casting enhancements,
Hope that helps.

The high CHA is really just to let me use RR and alignment restricted items sooner (I have a pair of +1 Khopeshes in the bank, a True Chaos of Pure Good and True Law of Pure Good that I wanna bust out as soon as I get prof at level 9!) and for better Haggle (money issues). I suppose I could reroll, putting the points I put into CHA into STR, but I'm not sure if it's 100% necessary. o_O My Paladin started with 15 STR, for example. (But then, that's a Paladin, and Paladins are funky that way, hehe.)

The purpose of the two Rogue is really just for Evasion; balancing out my skills after the Fighter levels and the sneak attack is just a bonus to me. Also I figured that having MCMW would let me bring more to the table if things got really hairy and the Cleric/FvS was running out of mana/incapped/whatever. Also, I've heard rumors that Greater Shout can be good at grabbing aggro in because of the stun possibility (I don't have any illusions of actually stunning stuff with it, but pulling aggro away from the squishier casters is basically what I would use it for...if that actually works [so if confirmation on that could be given by someone, I'd be very grateful]).


If I really needed to grab Inspired Attack 3, I'd probably drop Song Magic 4 and Inspired Bravery 3... But do you think that the +1 is worth that?

Thanks!

[BoBoDaClown]

The high CHA is really just to let me use RR and alignment restricted items sooner (I have a pair of +1 Khopeshes in the bank, a True Chaos of Pure Good and True Law of Pure Good that I wanna bust out as soon as I get prof at level 9!) and for better Haggle (money issues). I suppose I could reroll, putting the points I put into CHA into STR, but I'm not sure if it's 100% necessary. o_O My Paladin started with 15 STR, for example. (But then, that's a Paladin, and Paladins are funky that way, hehe.)

The purpose of the two Rogue is really just for Evasion; balancing out my skills after the Fighter levels and the sneak attack is just a bonus to me. Also I figured that having MCMW would let me bring more to the table if things got really hairy and the Cleric/FvS was running out of mana/incapped/whatever. Also, I've heard rumors that Greater Shout can be good at grabbing aggro in because of the stun possibility (I don't have any illusions of actually stunning stuff with it, but pulling aggro away from the squishier casters is basically what I would use it for...if that actually works [so if confirmation on that could be given by someone, I'd be very grateful]).


If I really needed to grab Inspired Attack 3, I'd probably drop Song Magic 4 and Inspired Bravery 3... But do you think that the +1 is worth that?

Thanks!

Like I said; your build is fine -as is your reasoning.

You probably won't need inspired attack three until you hit the most difficult content. Then it does make a difference - imagine your group member hitting on a 2 instead of a 3 - that's ~5% damage increase.

Enjoy!

[AylinIsAwesome]

Like I said; your build is fine -as is your reasoning.

You probably won't need inspired attack three until you hit the most difficult content. Then it does make a difference - imagine your group member hitting on a 2 instead of a 3 - that's ~5% damage increase.

Enjoy!

Alright, thank you.

[Gorbadoc]

+1 attack makes a bigger percent difference at the opposite end of the spectrum. Hitting on a 19 instead of just a 20 is a 100% increase in damage. I get your point, though; no matter where you are on the percentages, squeezing a little extra out of your DPS is worth a lot in high-end content.

To the OP:
Giving up bard levels is definitely a sacrifice; just make sure that your increased combat abilities are shiny enough to justify the sacrifice :-)

[AylinIsAwesome]

+1 attack makes a bigger percent difference at the opposite end of the spectrum. Hitting on a 19 instead of just a 20 is a 100% increase in damage. I get your point, though; no matter where you are on the percentages, squeezing a little extra out of your DPS is worth a lot in high-end content.

To the OP:
Giving up bard levels is definitely a sacrifice; just make sure that your increased combat abilities are shiny enough to justify the sacrifice :-)

I guess it would depend on how often my teammates will hit in Epics. If they're only hitting on a 20, but my full song would make them hit on a 19, then I did it wrong... But if they're hitting on a 3 or 4 without the full song... Then I'm alright. If it's somewhere in the middle...then it's probably iffy, depending on what exactly we need to roll in order to hit.

Trouble is, I'm just not sure how the ACs of mobs in Epics look, so I'm not sure if my song will give everyone the bonus to DPS they need. I'm not so worried Elite quests or Raids since actually hitting the mobs there is much easier... But I would like to run Epics when I get up there.


I suppose I could always Greater Reincarnate though...if I had to... :\