Mandatory Shroud PUG rant.

[SolarDawning]

I haven't done one of these before, so I feel I'm entitled to at least -one- little rant. =)

So, today, with shroud pugs constantly forming up, I try and fail to get into -four- of them. The two who actually responded to my requests simply told me "sry already have a monk".
Why the heck does having one member of a specific melee DPS class preclude you from taking another?
Because more melee dps is BAD in shroud, am I right?

[Samadhi]

Many monks suck; and many players still don't know much about them; bringing the end result of unrealistic prejudice against them. It still is nowhere as bad as it used to be against rangers.

Don't feel bad. Although I have been lazy about it recently, I used to just post my own shroud, on a cleric, with a somewhat abrasive LFM to the fools in the other one That and squelch the main fool of course.

[Anneliese]

He probably saw Monks as a party buffer/debuffer and not as DPS.

[Lithic]

The average monk brings about 60% of the DPS of the average barbarian (Especially considering most average monks wont be able to bypass the boss's DR, and they won't have the upgraded holyburst/shockingburst rings from TOD).

If a pug, which often has shaky DPS, already is gambling on one monk, they probably wouldn't want to gamble on a second monk.

Personally I form shrouds with 6-8 guild and channel mates, assume we can do the shroud without anyone else, and fill up the rest with the LFM. I figure, best case they make things faster, worst case the pugs get carried while dead, from chest to chest.

[atxken]

Hit points need to be over 250 cause they hit hard. Need metaline for the boss , something for the devils and decent ac
which alot of monks have hard time qualifing
so lower dps ,lower hp ,one light monk can cover there somewhat helpful buffs since most people can care less if a monk buffs them

[melkor1702]

It still is nowhere as bad as it used to be against rangers.

What do you mean "used to", I saw an LFM up over the weekend for HIPS, had the comment "need 1 DPS and we'll start". Classes wanted were Ftr, Barb, Pali, Monk. I sent a tell on my Ranger got told no, so I soloed it anyway, the other party was still waiting to start.

The bias is still there, probably not helped by the misconception that rangers must use bows

[Samadhi]

Hit points need to be over 250 cause they hit hard. Need metaline for the boss , something for the devils and decent ac
which alot of monks have hard time qualifing
so lower dps ,lower hp ,one light monk can cover there somewhat helpful buffs since most people can care less if a monk buffs them

Wait. Over 250? Let's try over 450 should be attainable for any decent build. If you are under 400 on a melee at 20 that is an issue that needs immediate attention.

[RhapsodieInBlue]

I still fail to see how monk DPS is bad.

Shock makes devils cry.

So if you have Holy Burst of Pure Good Handwraps, or Shocking Burst of Pure Good, it's not like you're doing paltry damage.

Of course you're not going to outdo a barbarian, but you're not going to be slacking either, especially if the boss is staying still.

No Crits here, but assuming you do not have threat on a Halfling Finesse Monk in GM Wind Stance using +4 Shocking Burst Handwraps of Pure Good. Also assuming your hooks will absorb your elemental attacks, which they do 90% of the time. Also assuming you have no Bard buffs for extra damage, no tharne's goggles, and you have invested in at least Earth 3, Wind 4, and Halfling Guile 4.

Assuming One attack and one hook (using my monk's handwraps that I currently own and his strength modifier)

Physical (4d10 +18 - 30(dr from 2 hits) + 2d6 shock + 2d6 good + 4d20 Shock is a minimum of 0 physical, 8 sneak attack damage, 4 holy, 2 good, and 4 shock on the initial hook, but a maximum of 28 physical, 16 sneak attack, 12 shock, 12 good, and 80 shock ... if you just take the simple mean that's 14 physical, 12 sneak attack, 6 shock, 6 good, 40 shock or a total of 94 damage per attack and hook

then on the second attack and hook, assuming Earth 3 is used as your off attack from Storm Strike 4

Physical (4d10 + 52 - 30(dr from 2 hits) + 2d6 shock + 2d6 good is a minimum of 16 physical, 16 sneak attack, 2 shock, 2 good and a maximum of 62 physical, 16 sneak attack, 12 shock, 12 good. Taking a simple mean that means it is an average of 44 physical, 16 sneak attack, 7 shock, 7 good. That comes to 74 damage.

So over four attacks you're doing an average of 168 damage. Those 4 attacks might happen over what, a little over a second?

I fail to see how my DPS isn't enough for a level 17 raid. Just wait until I pull devout or some +3+ metalline of pure good handwraps. If you do not cycle your attacks you're simply not playing your character to its design.

If there is some algorithm people use for average damage instead, please plug it in, but as a "test" I always see what kind of damage I can pull on the Pit Fiend at the end of Weapons Shipment. I seriously do not have a problem doing damage against the red named devils without ToD rings or Devout Handwraps.

Meh.. I'm done ranting about this. It just makes me mad when someone assumes a monk is not an active boon to the party.

[RhapsodieInBlue]

Wait. Over 250? Let's try over 450 should be attainable for any decent build. If you are under 400 on a melee at 20 that is an issue that needs immediate attention.

Tell me how to get over 400 HP in GM wind Stance on my 28 pt monk build, please.

Pluspetite Level 20 Halfling Lawful Outsider Monk

160 base
100 constitution bonus
72 feat bonus
50 enchanted bonus
-----
382 total

Self buffed stats
STR 20
Dex 30
Con 20
Int 10
Wis 32
Cha 10

Equipment
Minos Legens
Knost's Belt

Feats
Toughness

Enhancements
Racial Toughness I
Racial Toughness II

[Impatiens]

Tell me how to get over 400 HP in GM wind Stance on my 28 pt monk build, please.

A greensteel accessory could get you 45 more HP. Also what animal path do you have? Patient Tortoise would also give you extra hit points if that is not the one you are using. Have you used a plus 2 Con tome yet? That could also give you a little extra hp.

You are very close to 400 hp now. It's not a huge stretch to get there.

[Samadhi]

Rhapsodie - multiple ways

1) What are your feats? Monks are not exactly a feat starved class and I know I took more than 1 toughness on mine.
2) Shroud HP item
3) Monk enhancements can get you another 20 right there
4) You did not include the 20 base HP all characters get in your breakdown
5) Another 10 for AA favor
6) Yugo pots
7) What con tome (if any) have you eaten? Do you have exceptional con +1 on DT armor or TOD ring to balance an odd that way?

So there are seven ways to push you over 400; all but one of those will push you over 400 all by itself. Add all of those up and it seems fairly likely you can break 500 as best as I can tell with the feats listed.

Edit: Make that 8 ways - I forgot madstone rage. While I am not a fan of assuming "double rage" having a single rage going is pretty feasible for most raid combat situations.

[Impatiens]

Rhapsodie -
5) Another 10 for AA favor

Ah yeah, that's another good one for permanent extra HP. I totally forgot about that when I was listing some options.

[RhapsodieInBlue]

I forgot about DV. I have Draconic Vitality, so it was included in the breakdown under the feats I am sure.

Please tell me how I am to craft a greensteel item without being allowed in the shroud because I have under 400hp? Want me to buy all those ingredients? lol. I have one large bone from a ToD flagging run.

The final number there is just what displays on my character.

I am trying to decide whether to give up dodge/mobility/spring attack for dragonmarks or whether I should do something else with Mobility/Spring Attack, but I suppose another toughness wouldn't hurt.

I went Monkey because I like the trap saves and the ability to have 38 elemental resists.

I have eaten a +2 Supreme Ability Tome, original 28 point stats were



12
16
14
8
16
8

Yugoloth Potions....not enough LFMs for higher difficulty ToD dungeons to get that 75 favor. At least not when I play, and I do not know the dungeons well enough to start one on my own and be expected to lead it.


*edit*

No madstone boots...do those drop?

I didn't count the spell rage into my calculations..Was assuming unbuffed.

[Inspire]

A greensteel accessory could get you 45 more HP. Also what animal path do you have? Patient Tortoise would also give you extra hit points if that is not the one you are using. Have you used a plus 2 Con tome yet? That could also give you a little extra hp.

350-375+ with improved evasion is fine. And don't take patient tortoise, it is one of the worst animal paths.

[sirgog]

There's no reason that a toon with Improved Evasion needs 400hp for normal Shroud.

360 is a good baseline for other toons (so they can survive copping a Fireball failed save and melee hit in rapid succession), but Improved Evasion toons can get by just fine with 300hp. Try to stand behind Harry whenever possible.

[Impatiens]

Please tell me how I am to craft a greensteel item without being allowed in the shroud because I have under 400hp? Want me to buy all those ingredients? lol. I have one large bone from a ToD flagging run.

Honestly I highly doubt anyone would refuse you for a Shroud run because you were 20 hp shy of 400. Just hit up some LFMs. I did plenty of Shroud runs with my very gimpy first monk before I TRed her into a FVS and her hit points were less than yours. My current monk only has 20 hp more than you and she has the Patient Tortoise path. No GS item yet, though I'm working on it.

I would recommend dropping Mobility and Spring Attack for something else though I personally never take more than one rank of Toughness for feats. The Dragonmarks for a halfling can be very useful.

Clever Monkey is a nice animal path, but if you are super concerned about hp, Patient Tortoise would be an option. You can always switch back to Monkey if you liked it better once you have a GS hit point item crafted.

Honestly, though more hit points are always nice, it's not as if you are at some painfully low hp, like the 250 that was mentioned. You should be more than fine for Shroud with what you have.

[Impatiens]

350-375+ with improved evasion is fine. And don't take patient tortoise, it is one of the worst animal paths.

I never said it wasn't fine, I was just giving suggestions for how the poster could obtain more hp since that is what was asked.

I don't really agree about Patient Tortoise being one of the worst animal paths, but even if it is, there is no question that it does increase hp and that is what the topic being addressed was.

[Greydeath]

I still fail to see how monk DPS is bad.

Physical (4d10 +18 - 30(dr from 2 hits) + 2d6 shock + 2d6 good + 4d20 Shock is a minimum of 0 physical, 8 sneak attack damage, 4 holy, 2 good, and 4 shock on the initial hook, but a maximum of 28 physical, 16 sneak attack, 12 shock, 12 good, and 80 shock ... if you just take the simple mean that's 14 physical, 12 sneak attack, 6 shock, 6 good, 40 shock or a total of 94 damage per attack and hook

then on the second attack and hook, assuming Earth 3 is used as your off attack from Storm Strike 4

Physical (4d10 + 52 - 30(dr from 2 hits) + 2d6 shock + 2d6 good is a minimum of 16 physical, 16 sneak attack, 2 shock, 2 good and a maximum of 62 physical, 16 sneak attack, 12 shock, 12 good. Taking a simple mean that means it is an average of 44 physical, 16 sneak attack, 7 shock, 7 good. That comes to 74 damage.

I fail to see how my DPS isn't enough for a level 17 raid.

All well and good on Normal - Hard (let alone Elite) would DR all your physical damage...

[Stormanne]

And thus the reason I have the metalline of PG staff on my monk. Not top of the line DPS by any stretch, but at least its red numbers...

And don't let it get you down, after the next update, monks will actually be a desired member of the party (as long as the paths are worth a ****)

[Greydeath]

Please tell me how I am to craft a greensteel item without being allowed in the shroud because I have under 400hp? Want me to buy all those ingredients? lol. I have one large bone from a ToD flagging run.

I have eaten a +2 Supreme Ability Tome, original 28 point stats were

Yugoloth Potions....not enough LFMs for higher difficulty ToD dungeons to get that 75 favor. At least not when I play, and I do not know the dungeons well enough to start one on my own and be expected to lead it.

No madstone boots...do those drop?

I get the feeling from your post that you are just not prepared to put in the effort to grind the requirements/quests...

Purchasing ingredients is a quick way to get your item.

+2 SAT - boy did you get suckered...

Especially your comment on the pots and not being able to get the favor - how do you think WE got the favor? No one knew the quests when we started... take advantage of scale and try soloing them, or put together a party and go learn them.

Madstone Boots - virtual guarrentee at Reaver20 (~10 weeks)


All told, it strikes me that THIS is why your Monk is getting declined - and more generally why Monks get a bad rep