Need some help again Junts.

[Kalmah36]

It was recently brought to my attention that OTWF is really not worth it. Especially considering a paladin is going to have a good base attack. So for my reincarnation I think I'm going to go with dwarf over human.

Will be a 36 point build.

Rules for this build:
The last divine might
Dual wield
Dwarf

Base Stats:

Str - 15 (+2 tome) (+2 Stats from lvls) (+1 Excep from dt armor) (+6 Item)
Dex - 15 (+2 tome)
Con - 15 (+2 tome) (+1 enhancement from dwarf) (+6 Item)
Intel - 10 (+2 tome)
Wis - 8 (+2 tome) (+6 item)
Cha - 15 (+2 tome) (+3 from lvls) (+1 excep from ring) (+6 item) (+1 enhancement)

Bringing Stats to:

Str - 26
Dex - 17
Con - 24
Intel - 12
Wis - 16
Cha - 28

Skills:

Max - UMD/JUMP/BALANCE
Spread rest where ever.

Feats:
TWF
PA
Kopesh Proff
Imp Crit
Toughness
Imp TWF
Grt TWF


Thanks again for any advice.

[Quikster]

OTWF is not a huge boost at higher levels. At lower levels it helps a lot if dualing two DA or Khops or whatever. Extend is nice on a paly though.

FYI: Palys get 2 skill points per level. You will get 1 more per level at level 7 when you take your int tome.


You are going dwarf for armor mastery? Why not take armor class feats? Otherwise not sure why you are going dwarf with the penalty to cha other than for flavor.

[Sirea]

The Strength is a bit low for a melee class, IMO.

[Quikster]

The Strength is a bit low for a melee class, IMO.

Thats because he had to pump all those points into cha. If you stay human you can avoid this.

[rage9]

I would imagine he's taking dwarf for the con and toughness enhancements.
Lately I've been seeing alot of poeple telling pally's to take extend. Why? on a feat starved class to begin with I just don't see it. 20 min buffs not long enough? Really that lazy to hit divine and zeal every what 3 mins, need to extend that to 6? Just don't see the point.

[Sirea]

Thats because he had to pump all those points into cha. If you stay human you can avoid this.

I guess my next question would be if the damage boost provided by Divine Might IV would be enough to offset the decreased STR.

[Kalmah36]

The reason I want 20 base charisma is all the bonuses honestly. Yea, I could shoot for about 4 more str. That's 4 attack and 4 damage. 2 of the dmg is offset by the last divine might. With having such a high base charisma I also receive more to my saves, better lay on hands, and more uses of divine might. All very useful. The attack doesn't seem to be a big deal. All I've heard is how high paladins attack is later on in the game.

[Quikster]

I would imagine he's taking dwarf for the con and toughness enhancements.
Lately I've been seeing alot of poeple telling pally's to take extend. Why? on a feat starved class to begin with I just don't see it. 20 min buffs not long enough? Really that lazy to hit divine and zeal every what 3 mins, need to extend that to 6? Just don't see the point.

Yes, dwarf get one more tougness enhnacement, and one more point of con. Not worth it imo to take that huge loss to Cha. Esp. when you consider all the ap it costs to get a paly set up, i wouldnt spend 4 points on that last dwarven toughness. So at that point, for me, going dwarf is a total waste.

Dwarf buys you DA enhancements, which hes not using
Extra toughness (1) enhancement, which is difficult to fit
Extra starting con, of which hes really only using one point of not going 16 con.
Bonus saves to spells, on a paly lol
Con enhancements
Ac vs Giants

I dont see any of this really complementing his build enough to take the hit to cha.


I said extend was nice, I never said he needed to take it. And not so feat starved if he goes human. Its not about lazy, its about keeping Zeal, Divine Might, and Divine favor up, while spamming smites and divine sacrifice. Toss in self raging or madstone, titan gloves, and your mashing a lot of buttons and not swinging. Extend on a paly is nice.

I guess my next question would be if the damage boost provided by Divine Might IV would be enough to offset the decreased STR.

Should be ok in most content.

The reason I want 20 base charisma is all the bonuses honestly. Yea, I could shoot for about 4 more str. That's 4 attack and 4 damage. 2 of the dmg is offset by the last divine might. With having such a high base charisma I also receive more to my saves, better lay on hands, and more uses of divine might. All very useful. The attack doesn't seem to be a big deal. All I've heard is how high paladins attack is later on in the game.

Im not concerned about 20 base cha. Thats a good move. Im concerned about the 20 base cha on a dwarf. What does dwarf really get you other than suck up all those build points, making you pump more than half your level ups int cha. Go human, spend less points getting cha to 20, get more healing amp, and an extra feat.

[SimVerg]

First, going dwarf on a dps paladin is always a bad idea. That being said, splitting your points like that is a worse idea. You can end up with more points by dropping one point from cha(netting you 3 build points), putting 1 point into strength(leaving you with one build point) and putting 1 point into something else. Then, you put 4 level ups into cha instead of 3.

[Ralmeth]

I would imagine he's taking dwarf for the con and toughness enhancements.
Lately I've been seeing alot of poeple telling pally's to take extend. Why? on a feat starved class to begin with I just don't see it. 20 min buffs not long enough? Really that lazy to hit divine and zeal every what 3 mins, need to extend that to 6? Just don't see the point.

Have you played a high level Paladin? In order to play one well, you need to use lots of clickies on a regular basis. You will be spamming divine sacrifice, using smites and LOH as needed, intimidate if your DoS, divine might every minute, etc. Extend is helpful for all of the short term buffs you will use, divine favor and zeal for example. These normally would have a duration around 2 minutes at higher level, so extend makes this 4 minutes. Though not required, extend makes your life a lot easier amongst every other clicky you will use and I would never go without it.

[Kalmah36]

This is all great advice. No one has really showed me how to make a better human. Show me stats. I have human stats written down on paper and they end up being the exact same....

Show me how to make a better human build please.

[AylinIsAwesome]

36 point, for Human:

Stats:

STR: 16
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 16


Put one level up into CHA, rest into STR. Use a +1 DEX tome for ITWF.


Though if this is a double reincarnate (which it would have to be for you to have 36 stat points), I think you should go Drow.

You could have stats starting like this:

STR: 17
DEX: 15
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 17

This way you could put all your level-up points into STR, giving you +1 to hit and damage over the Human, and with racial bonuses to Rapiers you can get either +2 to hit and +1 damage or +1 to hit and +2 damage over a Human who uses a Khopesh, and your Exalted Smites and Divine Sacrifices will deal extra damage more often, from the +10% chance to crit you'll have.


Either would work though.

[Talamare2k4]

Human
Str - 16 (+2 tome) (+3 Stats from lvls) (+1 Excep from dt armor) (+6 Item) = 28
Dex - 15 (+2 tome) = 17
Con - 14 (+2 tome) (+6 Item) = 22
Intel - 10 (+2 tome) = 12
Wis - 8 (+2 tome) (+6 item) = 16
Cha - 16 (+2 tome) (+2 from lvls) (+1 excep from ring) (+6 item) (+1 enhancement) = 28

Basically its what your dwarf had but with +2 STR

note this is without human adaptability anywhere so you could probably even out your dex to 18~ (yay +1 reflex?)



or even
Str - 15 (+2 tome) (+3 Stats from lvls) (+1 Excep from dt armor) (+6 Item)(+1 human adapt) = 28
Dex - 15 (+2 tome) = 17
Con - 14 (+2 tome) (+6 Item) = 22
Intel - 10 (+2 tome) = 12
Wis - 10 (+2 tome) (+6 item) = 18
Cha - 16 (+2 tome) (+2 from lvls) (+1 excep from ring) (+6 item) (+1 enhancement) = 28

yay wisdom?

edit - a drow would be 32 pt right?
so a base of
16
14
14
8
8
16

ends up
Str - 16 (+2 tome) (+5 Stats from lvls) (+1 Excep from dt armor) (+6 Item) = 30
Dex - 16 (+2 tome) = 18
Con - 12 (+2 tome) (+6 Item) = 20
Intel - 10 (+2 tome) = 12
Wis - 8 (+2 tome) (+6 item) = 16
Cha - 18 (+2 tome) (+1 excep from ring) (+6 item) (+1 enhancement) = 28


edit -
Human
Str - 17 (+2 tome) (+3 Stats from lvls) (+1 Excep from dt armor) (+6 Item) (1 human adapt) = 30
Dex - 15 (+2 tome) = 17
Con - 11 (+2 tome) (+6 Item) (1 human adapt = 20)
Intel - 10 (+2 tome) = 12
Wis - 8 (+2 tome) (+6 item) = 16
Cha - 16 (+2 tome) (+2 from lvls) (+1 excep from ring) (+6 item) (+1 enhancement) = 28

[Demoyn]

Show me how to make a better human build please.

str - 18
dex - 15
con - 14
int - 8
wis - 8
cha - 14

Yes, the 18 strength is worth more than the 16 charisma.

[Talamare2k4]

str - 18
dex - 15
con - 14
int - 8
wis - 8
cha - 14

Yes, the 18 strength is worth more than the 16 charisma.

Divine Might gives you 2 damage per 2 charisma
Strength gives you 1 damage per 2 strength

[AylinIsAwesome]

Divine Might gives you 2 damage per 2 charisma
Strength gives you 1 damage per 2 strength

STR also gives you +1 to hit for every 2 points, which CHA does not. From what I'd guess, Demoyn may have said that referring to Epic quests, where mobs are notoriously hard to hit.

Though personally, I wouldn't like to start with less than 16 CHA on a Paladin.

[rage9]

Have you played a high level Paladin? In order to play one well, you need to use lots of clickies on a regular basis. You will be spamming divine sacrifice, using smites and LOH as needed, intimidate if your DoS, divine might every minute, etc. Extend is helpful for all of the short term buffs you will use, divine favor and zeal for example. These normally would have a duration around 2 minutes at higher level, so extend makes this 4 minutes. Though not required, extend makes your life a lot easier amongst every other clicky you will use and I would never go without it.

LOL yes I do have a high lvl Pally 18/2 DoS, without extend div and zeal are 2.12 mins. Your in a fight that lasts longer then that?

[Demoyn]

Divine Might gives you 2 damage per 2 charisma
Strength gives you 1 damage per 2 strength

On paper you'd think that would make divine might better (Unless you factor in the +1 to hit also, like a real mathemetician should). In game this doesn't hold true regardless.

[Talamare2k4]

On paper you'd think that would make divine might better (Unless you factor in the +1 to hit also, like a real mathemetician should). In game this doesn't hold true regardless.

+1 attack is harder to math out then +1 damage

Its true that I personally preferred +1 attack in PnP because the AC curve on monsters was 'smoother'

Also you have to factor in that Divine Might might not have 100% uptime



However 18 str would probably just leave him odds, and if I were to add his gear with your 18 str, then it would leave him with 31, while 17 str leaves with 30 and keeps his charisma high enough

[Gercho]

Extra cha gives +1 to umd, bigger LoH, +1 on all saves, and bigger exalted smites.