Is the bard community aware of the comming(?) change to fascinate?

[Samadhi]

So if fascinate is nerfed, how exactly is that going to make your CC bard any better? If you honestly think they are going to lower mobs will saves because of fascinate then you are delusional, mobs saves are so high because of the outstanding DCs a caster can get, not because you can get a 60+ DC on fascinate. If turbine balanced will saves off of fascinate DCs then NO ONE would be able to land a will save spell.

Your CC bard isn't gonna magically start landing spells because turbine nerfed fascinate, instead both melee and CC control bards get hurt by this change.

More QFT - I like this thread minimal effort required.

[RigorAdar]

For those that think overpowered effects and spells do not have a consequence you are deluding yourselves. I am an advocate of not nerfing firewall, but actually removing firewall from this game. It would make this game so much better and it would be much more easier to balance with no firewall in it. Fascinate although not as egregious a culprit as firewall is similiarly overpowered.

You don't need to remove or nerf Firewall (or Blade Barrier), you just need to improve mob AI so they don't stand in it or keep running through it. Although i read in another post that this was a fix on Lamma.

[Aashrym]

So if fascinate is nerfed, how exactly is that going to make your CC bard any better? If you honestly think they are going to lower mobs will saves because of fascinate then you are delusional, mobs saves are so high because of the outstanding DCs a caster can get, not because you can get a 60+ DC on fascinate. If turbine balanced will saves off of fascinate DCs then NO ONE would be able to land a will save spell.

Your CC bard isn't gonna magically start landing spells because turbine nerfed fascinate, instead both melee and CC control bards get hurt by this change.

More quoting in agreement.

[maddmatt70]

So if fascinate is nerfed, how exactly is that going to make your CC bard any better? If you honestly think they are going to lower mobs will saves because of fascinate then you are delusional, mobs saves are so high because of the outstanding DCs a caster can get, not because you can get a 60+ DC on fascinate. If turbine balanced will saves off of fascinate DCs then NO ONE would be able to land a will save spell.

Your CC bard isn't gonna magically start landing spells because turbine nerfed fascinate, instead both melee and CC control bards get hurt by this change.

The theory is mob will saves will also be lowered and that things like fascinate has led to the raising of mob's will saves like firewall has led to the raising of mob's hit points.

[maddmatt70]

You don't need to remove or nerf Firewall (or Blade Barrier), you just need to improve mob AI so they don't stand in it or keep running through it. Although i read in another post that this was a fix on Lamma.

I doubt it has been fixed as evidence by the groups that have run epic on lammania (mostly caster groups). In pnp the ways firewall is balanced is it also damages friendlys and is not nearly so beefed up like it is in DDO and the dungeonmaster of course is better able to adapt then computer AI. When I read about the way some groups do epic and I realize just how dependent those groups are on that one spell that is a sure indicator that the spell is broken. It has certainly led to the crazy hit points that mobs have in DDO and other nerfs such as stat damage nerf which in turn hurts dex based characters.

[Thriand]

The theory is mob will saves will also be lowered and that things like fascinate has led to the raising of mob's will saves like firewall has led to the raising of mob's hit points.

First of all that line of thought is ridiculous, mobs are getting increasingly high will saves because of casters spell DCs not because of fasinate. Second this nerf has absolutely NOTHING to do with the DC of fascinate, so why would mob saves be lowered because of it?

[RobbinB]

How is it balanced when cc oriented bards can not land their cc spells, but melee bards land their overpowered fasincates everytime and with none of the liability of no combat in the area when you fascinate that you have in pnp.

For those that think overpowered effects and spells do not have a consequence you are deluding yourselves. I am an advocate of not nerfing firewall, but actually removing firewall from this game. It would make this game so much better and it would be much more easier to balance with no firewall in it. Fascinate although not as egregious a culprit as firewall is similiarly overpowered.

Actually that's a very good idea. Nobody loot ran quest X a million times to obtain the firewall spell. No feat is tied to improving just the firewall spell. No one traded 1 million plat or boots of the innocent for the firewall spell. The firewall spell isn't a bonus casters get for achieving Z amount of favour.

So I think the devs have free reign to give firewall the axe if it might actually make the game better.

[Gorbadoc]

In pnp the ways firewall is balanced is it also damages friendlys... and the dungeonmaster of course is better able to adapt then computer AI.

So true. I like the idea of wall spells, but Wall of Fire and Blade Barrier are just DPS unless the victim is making an intelligent decision about whether to eat the damage, stay put, or go around.

[Cyr]

The theory is mob will saves will also be lowered and that things like fascinate has led to the raising of mob's will saves like firewall has led to the raising of mob's hit points.

I know that's why all those fire immune devil raid bosses have low hit point totals Oh and speculation based upon a single ability not heavily used in game (fascinate) outside of EPIC about the raising of save DC's is funny to say the least. Particularly since the fascinate ability was intentionally increased in the past to it's current state to make it more widely used. I mean jeez if fascinate was the whole problem from the devs viewpoint they could easily tweak the DC formula and be done with it.

[Hafeal]

... unless the victim is making an intelligent decision about whether to eat the damage, stay put, or go around.

This is the problem with AI - not all creatures are in intelligent. I think programming "in" stupidity into creatures is as hard as programming "in" intelligence. Some mindless creatures would wander in and out of firewalls, blade barriers and the like. Heck, I have seen players do it in enemy AoEs ...

[RigorAdar]

They do have unintelligent AI, look at zombie, clay golem, and devil aggro. They will bounce around between players even if one player isn't hitting them. If intelligent mobs would get out of FW then it could be used to separate large groups of mobs into smaller more manageable parties. Then it would still have a function in the game.

Sorry about derailing the thread