Is the bard community aware of the comming(?) change to fascinate?

[Favis]

Is the bard community aware of the comming(?) change to fascinate ?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=223571&page=4 (SimVerg post)

[Rabbi_Hordo]

Yah.

They've been playing with Fascinate off and on for a few years now.

First it was a gimme...then they made sure there was a will save involving the bard's performs skill.

This just looks like a further refinement in the same direction.

Shouldn't really impact the game much though. I am not sure how many folks sit there and just wait for a fascinate to time out or be saved upon before getting to work dispatching the mobs.

And on the other side of the coin, I'm glad they gave the players a little assistance as regards the "sit still and take it" effects that have allowed a few unhappy fighters with no will save to be unscrupulously used by their friends in sneak mode and a quick tippity-tap of the space bar!

[Zenako]

Yah.

They've been playing with Fascinate off and on for a few years now.

First it was a gimme...then they made sure there was a will save involving the bard's performs skill.

This just looks like a further refinement in the same direction.

Shouldn't really impact the game much though. I am not sure how many folks sit there and just wait for a fascinate to time out or be saved upon before getting to work dispatching the mobs.

And on the other side of the coin, I'm glad they gave the players a little assistance as regards the "sit still and take it" effects that have allowed a few unhappy fighters with no will save to be unscrupulously used by their friends in sneak mode and a quick tippity-tap of the space bar!

While the "humor" is laudable, it is also should never be the cause or driver to such a significant change to CC in the game. It will render it almost pointless with the current implementation. Mobs will be breaking free before you even get a chance to land another affect, and once they break free, are IMMUNE to other CC type effects for a period of time. You will not be able to Hold/Charm/Fascinate/Dominate etc on that mob until their surge wears off. Same with each one that breaks. Now what? Not only do you have a pile of angry mobs, but they are now IMMUNE to the effects that made them angry at you in the first place. Your ONLY solution at that point is to kill them, which is what you probably are going to have to start just doing in the first place instead. Tossing pretty much all CC into the dumpster. Disco Balls, Hypnotism, perhaps even Fogs now, all nerfed.

Don't believe it, check it out on the test server. Read up on those who have....

This is a very ill thought out attempt to give the players an out from getting tripped by dogs or tossed by air elementals. You eventually break free and are immune for 4-10 seconds, but you can often be dead well before then anyway.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Bards should get the feat 'switch out after buffing'.

What this will do is allow you to buff, switch to another character without penalty to you or the party. Then when buffs wear out you could switch back to your bard, buff up then switch again!

I'd suggest this be available as a free feat because of all the **** bard have to put up with.

Discuss.

[BoBoDaClown]

Bards should get the feat 'switch out after buffing'.

What this will do is allow you to buff, switch to another character without penalty to you or the party. Then when buffs wear out you could switch back to your bard, buff up then switch again!

I'd suggest this be available as a free feat because of all the **** bard have to put up with.

Discuss.

Awesome !

[maddmatt70]

To the Op shrug - this is one of those strays from pnp that overly benefits players. In pnp any nearby combat basically breaks the fascinate which is not the case in DDO. If they nerfed fascinate I would not be too upset after all fascinate probably has led to the super high mob will saves we currently. I would not mind casting hold monsters and seeing them land more regularly then they do. Firewall is a worse culprit to breaking game mechanics and is first in line to being changed in my opinion, but that is another story.

[Rabbi_Hordo]

While the "humor" is laudable, it is also should never be the cause or driver to such a significant change to CC in the game. It will render it almost pointless with the current implementation. Mobs will be breaking free before you even get a chance to land another affect, and once they break free, are IMMUNE to other CC type effects for a period of time. You will not be able to Hold/Charm/Fascinate/Dominate etc on that mob until their surge wears off. Same with each one that breaks. Now what? Not only do you have a pile of angry mobs, but they are now IMMUNE to the effects that made them angry at you in the first place. Your ONLY solution at that point is to kill them, which is what you probably are going to have to start just doing in the first place instead. Tossing pretty much all CC into the dumpster. Disco Balls, Hypnotism, perhaps even Fogs now, all nerfed.

Don't believe it, check it out on the test server. Read up on those who have....

This is a very ill thought out attempt to give the players an out from getting tripped by dogs or tossed by air elementals. You eventually break free and are immune for 4-10 seconds, but you can often be dead well before then anyway.

From what I've seen on the test server, nothing has lasted long enough to break a fascinate yet. From what I can tell all the CC that is going on in your groups must be a stand by with a stopwatch and wait kind of thing rather than killing the mobs. Granted, I never do 'new' quests on the beta server simply because I like the freshness on the main server, but I don't see how it would be categorically different in those quests than in the ones I'm used to. And 4-10 seconds is a LONG time to be immune IMO and permits a swift dispatch of the offending baddie.

[Zenako]

From what I've seen on the test server, nothing has lasted long enough to break a fascinate yet. From what I can tell all the CC that is going on in your groups must be a stand by with a stopwatch and wait kind of thing rather than killing the mobs. Granted, I never do 'new' quests on the beta server simply because I like the freshness on the main server, but I don't see how it would be categorically different in those quests than in the ones I'm used to. And 4-10 seconds is a LONG time to be immune IMO and permits a swift dispatch of the offending baddie.

The timing was just that. Tests to fascinate and then stand around and watch how long the effects stay in place. In many quests, it will be a moot point as has been pointed out, but in quite a few other quests, nerfing fascinate, especially where all mobs break at the same time, is going to render CC pointless, since it makes as much Spell Point sense to just kill them with those same points instead.

As for some allegations that the WILL saves have been pumped up to counter Fascinate, I find that kind of laughable at best. A bard casting fascinate can easily be hitting DC50+ on his songs, often over 70. That would require WILL save levels on mobs that would render them 95% immune to ALL OTHER WILL save spells, and that is clearly not the case. Casters with mid 30's DCs land spells with regularity on top level mobs, inferring that the mobs are perhaps in the mid to high 20's on their saves, which would be absolutely irrelevant to saving vs a DC50 Song. 5% is 5%.

I will grant that most groups fail to use things like Fascinate effectively so the impact on them will be none. Just like all the nuking based casters often ignore CC effects, again, they will not miss something they were not using. But for those players who were using those spells and abilities this will be a major nerf.

The ability of a character to use CC has just gotten between 3 and 5 times more costly to maintain. Details in the Heroic Surge thread.

[Kalari]

Not sure how I feel about this I am going to try to wait and see how this will affect my bards and my other crowd control specialists. Having both my bards using fascinate when I solo to pick off mobs at my own pace or help make thralls to fight other tougher mobs if whats being said about the nerf is true this will greatly effect my game play.

I am hoping that it will not be as bad as many fear but it if its thanks a lot for this just another blow to those who want to enjoy the class and are being forced pigeonholed to play songs buff and back up heal instead of being the versatile jack of all trades bards can be.

[Gorbadoc]

I am not sure how many folks sit there and just wait for a fascinate to time out or be saved upon before getting to work dispatching the mobs.

I take full advantage of the durations of the Fascinate songs.

When I solo, I sneak/run past a lot of mobs; Fascinate makes this much easier.

In a party, I regularly run ahead prepping mobs.

Solo or in a party, Fascinate lets me fight monsters one at a time.

This is a little cheesy. I wouldn't mind if there were a bit more risk involved when I fascinate a small army and try to pick them off one at a time-- like if each monster were allowed an additional saving throw after he had been CCed too long; then there would always be that possibility that three monsters would break free at once and gank me.

At the same time, Fascinate is a highly specialized ability, and it takes a while to cast. It SHOULD be incredibly useful. It should do a little more than slow a swarm down until they get their surge.

[valorik]

there is virtually 0 point ot fascinate in epic lama atm, dance is far better and from my experience, longer. Weakening fascinate so that it cna't do what it's meant to do, disable a group of mobs so a group can take them out 1 at a time, makes it useless.

[maddmatt70]

there is virtually 0 point ot fascinate in epic lama atm, dance is far better and from my experience, longer. Weakening fascinate so that it cna't do what it's meant to do, disable a group of mobs so a group can take them out 1 at a time, makes it useless.

No that is not what fascinate does in pnp. It is not meant to take out mobs one at a time but rather you just play the song and try to avoid combat altogether becausae if you fight the mobs at all the fascinate breaks for all mobs.

[SimVerg]

No that is not what fascinate does in pnp. It is not meant to take out mobs one at a time but rather you just play the song and try to avoid combat altogether becausae if you fight the mobs at all the fascinate breaks for all mobs.

Irrelevant. What it does in pnp will necessarily be different than what it does in an mmo. The question is, "is it balanced?" not "does it adhere to the rules of a different game?"

[maddmatt70]

Irrelevant. What it does in pnp will necessarily be different than what it does in an mmo. The question is, "is it balanced?" not "does it adhere to the rules of a different game?"

How is it balanced when cc oriented bards can not land their cc spells, but melee bards land their overpowered fasincates everytime and with none of the liability of no combat in the area when you fascinate that you have in pnp.

For those that think overpowered effects and spells do not have a consequence you are deluding yourselves. I am an advocate of not nerfing firewall, but actually removing firewall from this game. It would make this game so much better and it would be much more easier to balance with no firewall in it. Fascinate although not as egregious a culprit as firewall is similiarly overpowered.

[valorik]

How is it balanced when cc oriented bards can not land their cc spells, but melee bards land their overpowered fasincates everytime and with none of the liability of no combat in the area when you fascinate that you have in pnp.

This doesn't change this fact at all... in fact it makes cc bards even less powerful as compared to melee bards.

[RigorAdar]

For those that think overpowered effects and spells do not have a consequence you are deluding yourselves. I am an advocate of not nerfing firewall, but actually removing firewall from this game. It would make this game so much better and it would be much more easier to balance with no firewall in it. Fascinate although not as egregious a culprit as firewall is similiarly overpowered.

You don't need to remove or nerf Firewall (or Blade Barrier), you just need to improve mob AI so they don't stand in it or keep running through it. Although i read in another post that this was a fix on Lamma.

[RobbinB]

How is it balanced when cc oriented bards can not land their cc spells, but melee bards land their overpowered fasincates everytime and with none of the liability of no combat in the area when you fascinate that you have in pnp.

For those that think overpowered effects and spells do not have a consequence you are deluding yourselves. I am an advocate of not nerfing firewall, but actually removing firewall from this game. It would make this game so much better and it would be much more easier to balance with no firewall in it. Fascinate although not as egregious a culprit as firewall is similiarly overpowered.

Actually that's a very good idea. Nobody loot ran quest X a million times to obtain the firewall spell. No feat is tied to improving just the firewall spell. No one traded 1 million plat or boots of the innocent for the firewall spell. The firewall spell isn't a bonus casters get for achieving Z amount of favour.

So I think the devs have free reign to give firewall the axe if it might actually make the game better.