Golden General Paladin

[Uhtred_Stark]

I've been wanting to make a Paladin based on Laurana in her Golden General phase. I have finally unlocked 32 pt builds and it looks like now is the time. I've read thru the excellent beginners guide to Paladin thread here for some pointers. Despite the lack of inherit benefits, the race has to be elf. My first big choice seems to be if I want to go TWF with scimitars or THF with a falchion. I don't need to have a max DPS build to be happy with a character. The choice for me seems to depend on whether or not I have to invest in the 16 starting DEX or being able to get away with a 10. I'm inclined to go with the 10 and THF because it will allow me to be a more well rounded character with higher stats in other categories, mainly I want a good UMD so I want some skill points. So I am thinking a 16 STR and 16 CHA for sure with 10 DEX. Then try to balance the other 3 with obvious preference to CON. Two major questions I have:

Should I really take an 8 wisdom over a 10 wisdom?

I really don't know what Paladin (already assuming the toughness ones) enhancements to take. Since I'll be making a veteran character, I'll need to know what I should be using my first 16 pts on. Looks like these are standard...

Knight of the Chalice
Courage of Good
Divine Sacrifice
Divine Might
Xtra lay on hands
Xtra Smith
Exalted Smiting
Valenor Falchion (if I do go THF)

I guess I will need Charisma x2 for DM (also plan on using +2 CHA tome). What about things like Undying Call, Weapons of good, the Bulwark of Good chain, Focus of Good, resistance of good, Follower of the sovereign host, energy of the templar?

Not sure if I should go L20 Paladin or 18 with two levels of Fighter. Seems like the THF chain lends itself to Fighter splashes while the TWF chain lends itself to Rogue or monk splashes. I'm still playing with choices and haven't put anything in stone yet. Basically I want a Paladin that is a generalist - good at dps, self heals, UMD/Lay on Hands for key party heals, solid defense thru armor and buffs. Can I pull this off, or do I really have to focus on one area with this class?

[Ralmeth]

As an elf, it's really easy to start your dex at 16 or even 15 as you are buying dex points on a 1-for-1 basis. Thus, if it was me I would almost certainly go for the higher starting dex and go TWF.

As for wisdom, yes, I highly recommend starting it at an 8. It's a dump stat. When you start getting SP, just use it to power your divine sacrifice. If you use divine sacrifice your SP will not go to waste.

Also, as you mentioned you wanted some versatility in your character, I would seriously consider Paladin 18 / Rogue 2, for the max UMD as well as evasion and some extra skill points. Starting stats to consider would be:

Str: 15 (8 points)
Dex: 16 (6 points)
Con: 12 (6 points)
Int: 10 (2 points - to max out UMD)
Wis: 8 (0 points)
Char: 16 (10 points)

Regarding enhancements, you can respec these so I wouldn't worry about these too much, though I highly recommend picking up divine sacrifice, exhalted smite, divine might and extra lay on hands. At 6th level you could go with either knight of the chalice or hunter of the dead, but later on would definately go knight of the chalice.

Hope that helps, and good luck!

[Gercho]

Well, you have to make a couple decisions, you want to go pure paladin? if you get a couple levels of rogue you will gain some flexibility that i see you valuate.

A couple things, cha enhancements wont help you to get Divine Might, only base + tomes + level up points count for DM. If you take 2 levels of rogue, you cant get more than DM III so cha 18 (16 start + 2 tome) should be enough and you can put the level up points on str.

if you want to go TWF (its better for the rogue splash cause you get better dex save for evasion) then you could go:

15
16
12
10
8
16

10 int if you take 2 rogue and want umd maxed, you could go 8 int and 16 str if you dont, there is no really skill that you will really want to max other than umd.
So yes, going 8 wis is the best thing to do, since at the lower levels you dont have much mana anyway.

If you go THF then you can go:

17
10
12
8
8
17

That will make you easier to get to DM IV and strength is even more important in a THF, again put all your skill points in UMD, adding points to int or wis wont be better than having extra str or cha, wis gives you nothing, and int will give you another cross class skill like balance at most.
Of course, thats thinking in max dps, but adding points do int and wis wont add survaibility or any other important tool. As i said, if what you want is more versatility, then get 18 pal 2 rogue.

About the enhancements, well that will depend on the path you want, but you have covered the basics, once you take all those + thoughness enhancements, there wont be many points to spend anyway.


Edit: just read Ralmeth post that says practically exactly the same than i, seems that we wrote it at almost the same time aswell, lol, well +1 for him

[whomhead]

Int: 10 (2 points - to max out UMD)

Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but I've got a quick noob question. How exactly does intelligence help with UMD? Also, is the investment worth it on pure Paladin builds that only get half-levels into UMD?

[Gercho]

Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but I've got a quick noob question. How exactly does intelligence help with UMD? Also, is the investment worth it on pure Paladin builds that only get half-levels into UMD?

int gives an extra skill point, so if you are elf with 10 int you have 2 each paladin level, if your first level was rogue, then you can spend both points on umd on each lvl and get it maxed.

UMD for paladins is worthy even if you get only half ranks, cause your high cha will make it usefull with appropiate gear, obviously, if you splash rogue, you will want to have max ranks in umd.

[Uhtred_Stark]

Wow, uncanny how close both your advice was! Good stuff. One thing I'm not sure of on the TWF. OK, so I use a +1 Dex tome to get to 17 for itwf. When you factor in a +5 Dex item (easily available) I'm looking at a 22 DEX. I'm going to waste a ton of that aren't I? Is that just unavoidable? I guess Mithrail will help but I won't have access to the fighter enhancements that add to the max DEX use and wouldn't be able to afford them even I did.

[Ralmeth]

int gives an extra skill point, so if you are elf with 10 int you have 2 each paladin level, if your first level was rogue, then you can spend both points on umd on each lvl and get it maxed.

UMD for paladins is worthy even if you get only half ranks, cause your high cha will make it usefull with appropiate gear, obviously, if you splash rogue, you will want to have max ranks in umd.

Thanks! That's exactly what I was going to say

[Ralmeth]

Wow, uncanny how close both your advice was! Good stuff. One thing I'm not sure of on the TWF. OK, so I use a +1 Dex tome to get to 17 for itwf. When you factor in a +5 Dex item (easily available) I'm looking at a 22 DEX. I'm going to waste a ton of that aren't I? Is that just unavoidable? I guess Mithrail will help but I won't have access to the fighter enhancements that add to the max DEX use and wouldn't be able to afford them even I did.

At higher levels you'll most likely want to pick up Dragontouched Leather, which has a max dex bonus of 7. So your target dex at high levels is a 24. This should easily be doable if you start your dex at a 16:

16 starting dex
+1 tome
+1 rogue's dex enhancement for 2APs
+6 item
-----
24

Alternatively you could use a +2 tome to save yourself the rogue enhancement or to use just a +5 item.

Here's the link to Dragontouched Leather:
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Armor..._Leather_Armor

[William_the_Bat]

It's been a while since I read dragonlance, but I don't think a rogue or monk splash fit the character concept. Fighter levels might do, but plan out your feats first, because if you can hit 20 pally you get some pretty sweet benefits.

A very small investment in wisdom will let you start casting your divine favor a lot sooner. In the end game it's only a few SP, and a lot of people only care about how it plays at level 20, but for those of us who enjoy every level of questing goodness, it can make a big difference. Starting at 10 wis will let you use a wisdom item to cast divine favor when it's available at level 4. (Zulkash the Bloodletter won't like that one bit!) If the only thing you care about at level 4 is getting to 5, then don't sweat it, start with 8. It really comes down to personal preference, and the extra wis still gets you a few SP at end game and +1 will save, which is not a bad thing.

Come to think of it, given the source material, a wis of 8 isn't such a bad idea. That's the only explanation for her choice in romantic interests. Better make the int 8 as well.

Oh yeah, Ralmeth suggested using your SP for divine sacrifice early.. but you get SP at 4, and divine sacrifice is a level 6 enhancement. Also, at level 4 or level 6 your HP are fairly limited... using 5 at a time to spam 5d6 light damage is great for bosses, but not so great against everything else. Though it's just the sort of thing that self-righteous elf might do.

[Uhtred_Stark]

Haha - self-righteous elf, I like that one. And a WIS of 8 is definately right up Laurana's alley. Monk certainly doesn't fit the character. Fighter or Rogue could be taken as fitting especially in book one and most of book two until the stand at the tower when her character starts to change. Her actual 'game' stats from the Dragonlance modules are:

STR - 13
DEX - 17
CON - 14
INT - 15
WIS - 13
CHA - 16

And she's a L5 fighter. Wisdom and intelligence are way too high, though she did lead successful military campaigns. I'm not sure she ever did anything really dexterous in the books, and is probably benefiting from the all elves are graceful school of thought. Charisma is spot on but CON seems high, I mean she was a spoiled elven princess for a couple hundred years, that doesn't seem like it would be condusive to a high CON. Alas the game doesn't allow for 18 Paladin/2 Princess. Then again being a princess is just another form of being a dilettante isn't it? In that case both rogue and bard would be appropriate.

[William_the_Bat]

Sadly, bards can't be lawful.

Rogue just doesn't seem to fit.. she is not a trapsmith, she's not a con artist, she's not an assassin, certainly not an acrobat, and if she has the sort of startling agility needed for evasion, she never demonstrates that in the books.

Fighter would work, or you could just stick with pure pally and get some nice goodies at level 20.. just map out your feats first to figure out how many fighter (if any) levels she'll need.

[Uhtred_Stark]

I've gone pure Paladin with a 10 INT. I got two ranks of UMD at L1, along with a rank of balance and tumble. So I'll be getting 1/2 point of UMD and balance each level. Starting stats ended up being:

Str 15
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16

I used a +1 Dex tome to get my 17. Looks like I'm going twf (I figure I might as well take advantage of the 32 pt build and it doesn't seem like you can do a twf paladin with 28 points as well) Something I am considering - using a +1 Wis tome at level 5. That and the +2 wisdom items that will be available at that level should allow me to cast spells, right? It seems like it will allow me to cast spells 3 levels sooner vs. when I would need the additional + wisdom item (for Wis 11 and Wis 14). Yes, it leaves me with 15 at end, but the consumption of a +1 tome seems worth it for that. One thing I did was take P of sovereign host instead of the undying court since all the sample builds in the new paladin guide use that. Undying court would have given me a +1 to hit with scims (which I am using as an elf). Is it because p of sovereign host unlocks a more optimal enhancement path?

[Gercho]

i consumed a +1 wis tome aswell for the same reason, if later you can get a +2 tome, it would have been a good investment i think.
Everyone takes sovereign host, because the enhancement that opens, unyielding sovereignity, its a heal that cures 1000 points of HP and most debuffs, like level loss, stat point loss, venom, not sure what other things cures (the only thing i got that didnt cured so far was curse). And you can use it each 10 minutes independently of shrines.