PD Halls of Valhalla - recent growth

[Chai]

*puts his constructive hat on*

In Permadeath, should a Wizard/Sorcerer be thought of as an exploiting paraiah for the simple reason that that character can reach his full potential(or 80% of it) without having the best gear?

A Splashed ranger/rogue/monk is one of the most powerful blends in the game if built right, and wait for it......Geared properly.

Sorc and Wizards come with their good stuff built in. While a wizard at level 11 has his sixth level spells handed to him on a platter, a 9ranger/1rogue/1monk only has the AC that his gear and abilities can provide them.

So my question becomes this. Should Wizards/Sorcerers be looked down upon in permadeath? Are they making things too easy?

No.

So many permadeath guilds (and many non PD static group guilds) claim they are trying to move closer to the paper and pencil standard by implementing their rules. The fact here is this: In PnP DnD, Wizards are_more_powerful_than_any_other_class. They dont worry about class power balance in PnP. Its just a well known fact that a mid level Wizard can kill a high level party of tanks. By the time a wizard hits level 7 they can be flying around with improved invis on, throwing spells from whichever location they choose, and remain unseen. Wizards in DDO are actually LESS powerful than their PnP counterparts, due to spell lists being cut short, yet still having to mitigate damage with those prom dresses they call robes they run around in.

Now that THAT has been said, I would LOVE to hear how far a group makes it without using enhancements, while fighting mobs that ARE enhanced, cast enhanced spells etc. This will get more and more miserable in the higher end game as your 20 str 30 ac unenhanced tanks will be fighting 40 str 45 ac mobs soon enough. DDO is a different game with different tools in place, which the mobs also use.

Example: That orange named kobold shaman in butchers path (if you are in a PD guild, you KNOW which shaman I am talking about lol) is a CR 9 boss mob. I have been fireballed by him for 112 points of damage. Even maxed out using D6s, it would take 19 levels to reach that damage number. Fireball only allows for 10 HD of damage, sooo...the mobs youll be fighting on elite will DEFINATELY be enhanced.

Example: Those ogres in level 3 quests that hit for 75 are not critting with greatclubs and 19 or 20 str. They are enhanced ogres with feats and larger damage numbers. Those crits are due to the ogres swinging Dodge pick up trucks by their front bumpers.

Bringing a butterknife to a gun fight is not emulating true PnP. Forced co-operation is the premise on which the PnP games were founded. The key word here is "forced". If you dont co-operate, you probably will not make it out of the quest alive. It has nothing to do with being butt naked riding a zebra in order to make the game more difficult.

Now, I do applaud your wanting to see how far you can go at super hyper omni global mega difficulty, and do let us sane individuals know how far you make it. I am curious to see how this all works out.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Bringing a butterknife to a gun fight is not emulating true PnP. Forced co-operation is the premise on which the PnP games were founded. The key word here is "forced". If you dont co-operate, you probably will not make it out of the quest alive. It has nothing to do with being butt naked riding a zebra in order to make the game more difficult.

Exactly .. the point is to find something to do that is an appropriate difficulty relative to your power. A guild that allows auction house, vendor and broker purchase .. should at the very least do nothing below level .. and should probably be Raiding on a regular basis.

[kafrielveddicus]

No.

So many permadeath guilds (and many non PD static group guilds) claim they are trying to move closer to the paper and pencil standard by implementing their rules. The fact here is this: In PnP DnD, Wizards are_more_powerful_than_any_other_class. They dont worry about class power balance in PnP. Its just a well known fact that a mid level Wizard can kill a high level party of tanks. By the time a wizard hits level 7 they can be flying around with improved invis on, throwing spells from whichever location they choose, and remain unseen. Wizards in DDO are actually LESS powerful than their PnP counterparts, due to spell lists being cut short, yet still having to mitigate damage with those prom dresses they call robes they run around in.

Now that THAT has been said, I would LOVE to hear how far a group makes it without using enhancements, while fighting mobs that ARE enhanced, cast enhanced spells etc. This will get more and more miserable in the higher end game as your 20 str 30 ac unenhanced tanks will be fighting 40 str 45 ac mobs soon enough. DDO is a different game with different tools in place, which the mobs also use.

Example: That orange named kobold shaman in butchers path (if you are in a PD guild, you KNOW which shaman I am talking about lol) is a CR 9 boss mob. I have been fireballed by him for 112 points of damage. Even maxed out using D6s, it would take 19 levels to reach that damage number. Fireball only allows for 10 HD of damage, sooo...the mobs youll be fighting on elite will DEFINATELY be enhanced.

Example: Those ogres in level 3 quests that hit for 75 are not critting with greatclubs and 19 or 20 str. They are enhanced ogres with feats and larger damage numbers. Those crits are due to the ogres swinging Dodge pick up trucks by their front bumpers.

Bringing a butterknife to a gun fight is not emulating true PnP. Forced co-operation is the premise on which the PnP games were founded. The key word here is "forced". If you dont co-operate, you probably will not make it out of the quest alive. It has nothing to do with being butt naked riding a zebra in order to make the game more difficult.

Now, I do applaud your wanting to see how far you can go at super hyper omni global mega difficulty, and do let us sane individuals know how far you make it. I am curious to see how this all works out.

Assuming we are talking 3.5 PnP, Forced cooperation applies to pure class wizards and fighters and many other pure class builds, but a good multiclassed prestige build assuming your DM opens the books much like some permadeath guilds while Pwny any pure class (especially every childs favourite the one trick pony wizard), to make that comparison lets look at an 18th to 20th level toon, because yes a wizard can take out a non-caster who is grounded, so can a ranger with fly boots, but by far Clerics(especially multiclass prestige) dominate the PnP world!!!!

P.S. Dimensional Anchor For The Win

[kafrielveddicus]

Exactly .. the point is to find something to do that is an appropriate difficulty relative to your power. A guild that allows auction house, vendor and broker purchase .. should at the very least do nothing below level .. and should probably be Raiding on a regular basis.

Or maybe they could play Blind-folded with someone over there shoulder telling them what keys to hit!!!

Roflmao!!!

[Chai]

Assuming we are talking 3.5 PnP, Forced cooperation applies to pure class wizards and fighters and many other pure class builds, but a good multiclassed prestige build assuming your DM opens the books much like some permadeath guilds while Pwny any pure class (especially every childs favourite the one trick pony wizard), to make that comparison lets look at an 18th to 20th level toon, because yes a wizard can take out a non-caster who is grounded, so can a ranger with fly boots, but by far Clerics(especially multiclass prestige) dominate the PnP world!!!!

P.S. Dimensional Anchor For The Win

Actually PnP DnD is by design a forced co-operation game. They even give an example quest in the DM Guide complete with DM narration and players arguing with eachother, then all having to work together in order to survive the encounter. (or not and dying) ***The game is DESIGNED for this, and if you alter the game to make it not so, then that is unique to your campaign, and also against the design of the game itself.

The way PnP encounters are designed, is to make it so 4 characters of similar level can fight 4 encounters and MAYBE a 5th before having to replenish ye ald equipment list. This is also clearly stated, and can be modified to accomodate the campaign. ***In DDO however, you kill 200 mobs in a quest sometimes, rampaging from room to room in the quest to fight even more mobs.

I would love to see someone build a PnP character they feel can survive 4 encounters at their own level (which are designed to keep 4 players of that very same level busy). It would have to be a wizard or another caster. That toon, no matter how rediculously powerful, is one saving throw failure away from death. No friends to help them out??? Sure, you can tailor encounters to your number of players in PnP, but casters, especially wizards are extremely more powerful than their sowrd and board counterparts in ***most case scenarios. Again my point is -> there is no balance, so someone trying to emulate PnP play in DDO should not be concerned with Wizards being overpowered. Usually when a wizard dies they either were not prepared or ready to face what they did, and got caught with their robes hiked up and their pants down. Tanks on the other hand can wade into battle fully knowing what lies ahead and still die by getting screwed by the dice.

Mid level prestige cleric vs prestige wizard in a one on one comparison - the wizard wins hands down in amount of actual power they have. We are talking destroying armies of tanks their level. At level 10 or so, clerics become casters anyhow, as they rely less and less on their armor and weapons as they advance (unless you burned all your feats on weapon abilities and went battle cleric). They will be outclassed by fighter types in open combat unless they rely more and more on spells. This is actually done pretty well in DDO, where you can choose to be a battle cleric, or a caster type, but usually not both to any high degree of effectiveness. My point, again, is there is no balance like you see in a video game. Wizards are just nasty, especially if they are prepared and know they will be fighting you. High level clerics are the same and equally as nasty.

In other MMOS, people cry and cry and cry about character balance - usually due to being owned over and over again in PVP. As DDO does not really focus on PVP, there is no reason to carry on about class balance issues or overpowered abilities. This is one of the reasons I <<REALLY>> enjoy playing this game. It doesnt bother me that a wizard can solo the entire orchard more effectively than 6 melee can run it.

[Chai]

Exactly .. the point is to find something to do that is an appropriate difficulty relative to your power. A guild that allows auction house, vendor and broker purchase .. should at the very least do nothing below level .. and should probably be Raiding on a regular basis.

Raiding is more about who is logged in and flagged than level of power of toons due to purchasing ability.

If we had 12 people of similar level flagged for the same raids it is likely that we would raid more often. There are non PD guilds that dont raid often for this very reason, and their members have to join PUG raids if they want to get in on that action, a luxury not afforded to PD players.

[toughguyjoe]

I guess what my point was to be was that if a person wants to make a Warforged Sorcerer, take the spells he knows work well, and use them to the peak of their ability and everything is working as intended, should I have to listen to someone complain that its practically an exploit?

It takes skills to be able to survive pulling medium to large stacks of mobs. In permadeath it takes even more skill, as one screw up means a re-roll in many cases.

Just because some people have large permadeath guilds does not mean rezing becomes a crutch. Player skill is what i think is being dragged down through the dirt, and I cannot help but feel like the recent leveling of a character in the permadeath guild I play in was the underlying commentary of this thread to begin with.

a WF wiz was rolled in recent weeks by a player new to VPG, and he is now level 15 close to 16. Hes a great player with an awesome build and very adequate skills to use his toon to its potential.
He deserves priase, not passive agressive rundowns of such playstyles.

Of course, I bet that this thread had nothing to do with any of my last two paragraphs

[KGWiking]

The Tower shield helps - but 100% fortification is really what you need.

Unless you are AC 50 you will be hit hard in GH and other areas that are 12+

KG

I do not squelch anyone, keeping an open mind is important.

The six seconds was just a number it could be adjusted, the point is as long as a single resource can be used by a party to do radical amounts of damage, even if mobs have ridiculous hit points and defenses, it is overpowered, it would be nice to see them tweek it in some way without affecting other aspects of fire attacks, the only way i can see to do that is a damage over time adjustment, this means that you need to have a chance for the monsters to get a chance to deliver minimal to equal amounts of damage to the caster if he/she is going to stand in the firewall or be bouncing around the firewall. Casters have other ways to mitigate this damage via buffs, but atleast they are facing some possiblity of danger, as it stands mobs take damage from the firewall and take time to readjust then take more damage it is a vicious circle!!!

Spoiler: if you want another way to mitigate your wizards damage, be ready to equip a tower shield after casting the firewall, it will give yiu great blocking DR!!!!

[kafrielveddicus]

The Tower shield helps - but 100% fortification is really what you need.

Unless you are AC 50 you will be hit hard in GH and other areas that are 12+

KG

Yes Fortification would be a huge help, and for a warforge you would only need a moderate fort item!!!

So list of things to help a firewall caster;

Fortification to mitigate criticals
Stoneskin for DR 10 (This would Stack with a Tower Shield)
Tower Shield for extra DR while things burn
Blur/Displacement for Miss Chance
Shield for AC
False Life for Hit Points
Aid Clickies for Hit Points
*add in some things that would certainly become available
House P buffs
Cat's Grace for AC
Bear's Endurance for Hit Points
Fox's Cunning (For Wizard Spell Points)
Eagle's Splendor (For Sorceror Spell Points)
Resist Energy's to mitigate damage
House J buffs
Shield of Faith for AC

Then add some other things like
possible crowd control (ie. Dance spells in the fire)
self Healing in the case of Warforge

**** The Above list can be provided without any party help ****

Now add in all the things a party can add to that and it really is an unstoppable force, it still leads tothe question can cap be achieved without a single death!!!!

This makes this one of the best classes to play, and it will make many quests much easier.

Still would love to see changes to firewall!!!

[kafrielveddicus]

Actually PnP DnD is by design a forced co-operation game. They even give an example quest in the DM Guide complete with DM narration and players arguing with eachother, then all having to work together in order to survive the encounter. (or not and dying) ***The game is DESIGNED for this, and if you alter the game to make it not so, then that is unique to your campaign, and also against the design of the game itself.

The way PnP encounters are designed, is to make it so 4 characters of similar level can fight 4 encounters and MAYBE a 5th before having to replenish ye ald equipment list. This is also clearly stated, and can be modified to accomodate the campaign. ***In DDO however, you kill 200 mobs in a quest sometimes, rampaging from room to room in the quest to fight even more mobs.

I would love to see someone build a PnP character they feel can survive 4 encounters at their own level (which are designed to keep 4 players of that very same level busy). It would have to be a wizard or another caster. That toon, no matter how rediculously powerful, is one saving throw failure away from death. No friends to help them out??? Sure, you can tailor encounters to your number of players in PnP, but casters, especially wizards are extremely more powerful than their sowrd and board counterparts in ***most case scenarios. Again my point is -> there is no balance, so someone trying to emulate PnP play in DDO should not be concerned with Wizards being overpowered. Usually when a wizard dies they either were not prepared or ready to face what they did, and got caught with their robes hiked up and their pants down. Tanks on the other hand can wade into battle fully knowing what lies ahead and still die by getting screwed by the dice.

Mid level prestige cleric vs prestige wizard in a one on one comparison - the wizard wins hands down in amount of actual power they have. We are talking destroying armies of tanks their level. At level 10 or so, clerics become casters anyhow, as they rely less and less on their armor and weapons as they advance (unless you burned all your feats on weapon abilities and went battle cleric). They will be outclassed by fighter types in open combat unless they rely more and more on spells. This is actually done pretty well in DDO, where you can choose to be a battle cleric, or a caster type, but usually not both to any high degree of effectiveness. My point, again, is there is no balance like you see in a video game. Wizards are just nasty, especially if they are prepared and know they will be fighting you. High level clerics are the same and equally as nasty.

In other MMOS, people cry and cry and cry about character balance - usually due to being owned over and over again in PVP. As DDO does not really focus on PVP, there is no reason to carry on about class balance issues or overpowered abilities. This is one of the reasons I <<REALLY>> enjoy playing this game. It doesnt bother me that a wizard can solo the entire orchard more effectively than 6 melee can run it.

Certian Multiclass combinations can and will stand alone, making the rest of the party only additional perks, as far as a wizard being top of the heap it is a typical error in judgement, wizards are weak casters, some Clerical builds have outrageous saving throws and spells at their fingertips as well as great combat skills, and the single most greatest thing about clerics is their domains, which allows a cleric to have a second saving throw on a roll of a "1", it also allows them immunities, and access to many wizard spells that they normally wouldnt be able to cast!!! I could certainly provide a clerical build that could own encounters designed for the appropriate challenge rating, over and over again, and all within the sameday, without rest. When a DM designs encounters to slay a character like that and the rest of the party is wiped in under five rounds, but the cleric still goes on to defeat the encounter(sometimes taking over 100 rounds of combat), it says alot. There is a big reason why DDO did not include Cleric Domains in the Game!!!!! The fact is the included firewall in the game to give wizards/sorc something of use, you have to satisfy the masses that believe Arcane Casters Rule the Fantasy Genre.

[Chai]

Certian Multiclass combinations can and will stand alone, making the rest of the party only additional perks, as far as a wizard being top of the heap it is a typical error in judgement, wizards are weak casters, some Clerical builds have outrageous saving throws and spells at their fingertips as well as great combat skills, and the single most greatest thing about clerics is their domains, which allows a cleric to have a second saving throw on a roll of a "1", it also allows them immunities, and access to many wizard spells that they normally wouldnt be able to cast!!! I could certainly provide a clerical build that could own encounters designed for the appropriate challenge rating, over and over again, and all within the sameday, without rest. When a DM designs encounters to slay a character like that and the rest of the party is wiped in under five rounds, but the cleric still goes on to defeat the encounter(sometimes taking over 100 rounds of combat), it says alot. There is a big reason why DDO did not include Cleric Domains in the Game!!!!! The fact is the included firewall in the game to give wizards/sorc something of use, you have to satisfy the masses that believe Arcane Casters Rule the Fantasy Genre.

A couple of counterpoints to be made here.

There is a big reason why DDO did not include Cleric Domains in the Game!!!!! The fact is the included firewall in the game to give wizards/sorc something of use, you have to satisfy the masses that believe Arcane Casters Rule the Fantasy Genre.

Ahem, actually, In DDO Arcane casters enjoy roughly 1/6th the spell selection they get in PnP, and not even half the feats. The 15 spells they can memorize per spell level are paltry at best compared to a PnP caster. They were not "given" firewall to make them useful. They already had it and most of their other spells got "taken away" in translation from PnP to video game mechanics. Wizards are the_most_nerfed class in the game if you compare their PnP version to their DDO version. Like your clerical example, high level wizards dont even need the rest of the group in many cases.

PnP wizards are the dynamic caster class, and if you play a Wizard unpredictably enough, saving throws are not even necessary. Your assessment assumes a direct confrontation is in order. A wizard who directly confronts their oponent without defenses in places deserves the dirt nap they receive. A well played wizard wouldnt allow their opponent to get the jump on them. This is like putting a rogue next to a fighter on the map and saying "alright, slug it out".

DDO didnt include cleric domains and alot of clerical abilities for the same reason they didnt include most wizard spells / focus schools / familiars / the entirety of divinations and illusions / real dimension doors / bigbys hands / passwalls / real teleport spells / improved invis / perminent spells / useful mass death spells / you get where I am going with this.....

Both classes are extremely nerfed from PnP for player -vs- environment class balance. Conversely, most of the melee classes are ramped up for the same reason.

[Chai]

And....

What change would you like to see happen to firewall?

[Duncani_Daho]

[QUOTE=Chai;2696463]No.

So many permadeath guilds (and many non PD static group guilds) claim they are trying to move closer to the paper and pencil standard by implementing their rules. The fact here is this: In PnP DnD, Wizards are_more_powerful_than_any_other_class.


Two thoughts: you might not have heard about The Core. We are a hardcore guild that doesn't use shrines in quests. That forces the wizards and sorcerers and all spellcasters to live within their means while questing. Our highest level characters in the guild are level 13 spellcasters: a 28-point build elf wizard and a 32-point build dorf cleric. It can be done. And I provides balance to the classes that gamers truly appreciate. Every class has to bring out their tools to complete long quests. It's not just the sorcerers and wizards leading the parade.

Firewall. If we COULD shrine, I'd go out into Gianthold and have some melee types shield block every doorway or bottleneck, and cast firewall, firewall, firewall from a safe distance. You don't even need stoneskin, blur, and all the other stuff. Ok, now and then I might toss in a cone of cold. Shrine, rinse, repeat. Boss fight? No problem, you have plenty of mana to seal the deal.

Without a doorway or bottleneck, things get dicier, but when you're in Western Threnal and your level 11 sorc can shrine up 4 times (?), heck just spam cast any old spell at EVERY mob you see, you'll probably still have mana to spare. The other party members will be bored to tears.

Do without shrines. Join The Core.

Movan, thecorehc.home.comcast.net

[Chai]

[QUOTE=Duncani_Daho;2698355]

No.

So many permadeath guilds (and many non PD static group guilds) claim they are trying to move closer to the paper and pencil standard by implementing their rules. The fact here is this: In PnP DnD, Wizards are_more_powerful_than_any_other_class.


Two thoughts: you might not have heard about The Core. We are a hardcore guild that doesn't use shrines in quests. That forces the wizards and sorcerers and all spellcasters to live within their means while questing. Our highest level characters in the guild are level 13 spellcasters: a 28-point build elf wizard and a 32-point build dorf cleric. It can be done. And I provides balance to the classes that gamers truly appreciate. Every class has to bring out their tools to complete long quests. It's not just the sorcerers and wizards leading the parade.

Firewall. If we COULD shrine, I'd go out into Gianthold and have some melee types shield block every doorway or bottleneck, and cast firewall, firewall, firewall from a safe distance. You don't even need stoneskin, blur, and all the other stuff. Ok, now and then I might toss in a cone of cold. Shrine, rinse, repeat. Boss fight? No problem, you have plenty of mana to seal the deal.

Without a doorway or bottleneck, things get dicier, but when you're in Western Threnal and your level 11 sorc can shrine up 4 times (?), heck just spam cast any old spell at EVERY mob you see, you'll probably still have mana to spare. The other party members will be bored to tears.

Do without shrines. Join The Core.

Movan, thecorehc.home.comcast.net

Thats awesome that you guys are doing that from a difficulty standpoint, however, it does not emulate PnP, which is the point I was making.

In PnP, encounters are designed to allow the party to fight 4 even up encounters and MAYBE a 5th before having to replenish resources, rest to gain back spells, etc...

In DDO, alot of quests require you to kill 200 + mobs, not to mention buff the party 3 or 4 times during the quest, which is so far away from the PnP model that they had to re-design casters differently to fit into the game.

Using your Threnal example, hustle up a party of 6 players and walk into Threnal, and fight the first 5 encounters. You walk in and kill a bunch of mephits, then a few spiders, then a few more mephits, then you smash 2 encounters of flensers and flesh renders. At this point in a PnP campaign, the party would need to rest and might even possibly need to go back to town and buy more expendable goods. In DDO, people can "overbuy" expendables, but the "rest factor" is emulated with rest shrines.

I am not one to say "it cant be done" because people like yourself will always prove it can, and it is awesome that you guys are able to complete mid high level quests in "hard core" mode. Restricting shrine usage is not really emulating tabletop play however.

Do you also restrict purchases from the AH or brokers? Can people buy 200 heal potions / haste potions / stat potions etc...?

[kafrielveddicus]

A couple of counterpoints to be made here.



Ahem, actually, In DDO Arcane casters enjoy roughly 1/6th the spell selection they get in PnP, and not even half the feats. The 15 spells they can memorize per spell level are paltry at best compared to a PnP caster. They were not "given" firewall to make them useful. They already had it and most of their other spells got "taken away" in translation from PnP to video game mechanics. Wizards are the_most_nerfed class in the game if you compare their PnP version to their DDO version. Like your clerical example, high level wizards dont even need the rest of the group in many cases.

PnP wizards are the dynamic caster class, and if you play a Wizard unpredictably enough, saving throws are not even necessary. Your assessment assumes a direct confrontation is in order. A wizard who directly confronts their oponent without defenses in places deserves the dirt nap they receive. A well played wizard wouldnt allow their opponent to get the jump on them. This is like putting a rogue next to a fighter on the map and saying "alright, slug it out".

DDO didnt include cleric domains and alot of clerical abilities for the same reason they didnt include most wizard spells / focus schools / familiars / the entirety of divinations and illusions / real dimension doors / bigbys hands / passwalls / real teleport spells / improved invis / perminent spells / useful mass death spells / you get where I am going with this.....

Both classes are extremely nerfed from PnP for player -vs- environment class balance. Conversely, most of the melee classes are ramped up for the same reason.

Yes and both wizards and Clerics can take down the others defenses and buffs with a single spell, funny thing is when that happens who has more innate abilities then the other will win, wizards are useless without there buffs(they become cannons, easily destroyed because they have weak saves), ie no flying, no invis, no illusions, of course those can be countered anyways, I love true seeing and clerics can fly and best of all Clerics can heal themselves. Special Note: still going to go with Dimensional Anchor for the win!!!

[kafrielveddicus]

[QUOTE=Chai;2698461]

Thats awesome that you guys are doing that from a difficulty standpoint, however, it does not emulate PnP, which is the point I was making.

In PnP, encounters are designed to allow the party to fight 4 even up encounters and MAYBE a 5th before having to replenish resources, rest to gain back spells, etc...

In DDO, alot of quests require you to kill 200 + mobs, not to mention buff the party 3 or 4 times during the quest, which is so far away from the PnP model that they had to re-design casters differently to fit into the game.

Using your Threnal example, hustle up a party of 6 players and walk into Threnal, and fight the first 5 encounters. You walk in and kill a bunch of mephits, then a few spiders, then a few more mephits, then you smash 2 encounters of flensers and flesh renders. At this point in a PnP campaign, the party would need to rest and might even possibly need to go back to town and buy more expendable goods. In DDO, people can "overbuy" expendables, but the "rest factor" is emulated with rest shrines.

I am not one to say "it cant be done" because people like yourself will always prove it can, and it is awesome that you guys are able to complete mid high level quests in "hard core" mode. Restricting shrine usage is not really emulating tabletop play however.

Do you also restrict purchases from the AH or brokers? Can people buy 200 heal potions / haste potions / stat potions etc...?

The core restircts everything Chai, You are arguing from a standpoint and a guild from which most of all the other guilds in permadeath have spawned from as the people that left to form the new guilds didnt want the easy button.

I mean for me I originally looked to permadeath because I was tired of watching people die and rez in quests dozens of times to complete quests, I also knew the game was to easy if you went out and purchased the best gear so I never did even in Sublime, And now that I play without AH, Brokers and Vendors, I am actually feeling somewhat challenged, albeit not as much as Hardcore.

What Duncani and I are saying is that we both realize how easy Firewall is, would I use it - Yes, could I play a game where every quest was step and repeat tactics - Yes but I dont want to. Would I like to see it revised so it does not tick damage as rapidly - Yes


Many of the permadeathers are trying to emulate Pen and Paper, but even pen and paper would have different styles of campaigns, ie. Explorers/Sublime would be more Monty Haulish, most others would be consider Mid Range, and Hardcore would be Tournament Play!!!


Chai of all the people in the permadeath Community, go ahead and ask if I have ever been rezzed, that's right not a single time, not once!!!!

[Chai]

Yes and both wizards and Clerics can take down the others defenses and buffs with a single spell, funny thing is when that happens who has more innate abilities then the other will win, wizards are useless without there buffs(they become cannons, easily destroyed because they have weak saves), ie no flying, no invis, no illusions, of course those can be countered anyways, I love true seeing and clerics can fly and best of all Clerics can heal themselves. Special Note: still going to go with Dimensional Anchor for the win!!!

Wizards get dimensional anchor too. As well as PERMINENT arcane sight.

You wont be taking every single defensive spell down from a well buffed caster unless you are rolling a loaded dice for dispell checks. This also assumes you have the wizard targeted. DnD is as much a game of probability as it is a game of strategy.

It becomes a game of chess at higher levels.

As far as being useless: hardly.

[kafrielveddicus]

Wizards get dimensional anchor too. As well as PERMINENT arcane sight.

You wont be taking every single defensive spell down from a well buffed caster unless you are rolling a loaded dice for dispell checks. This also assumes you have the wizard targeted. DnD is as much a game of probability as it is a game of strategy.

It becomes a game of chess at higher levels.

As far as being useless: hardly.

Wont be planning on running away with my cleric build, just want to make sure the wizard has to stay, and will slowly wait until all of his spells are cast, and yes Wizards are useless once their spells are cast, and unlike ddo they have to memorize their spells and get a very limited amount of them, as do clerics, but clerics dont need to use their spells for offense!!!

I would be more than happy to dual with you with 3.5 builds, your wizard versus my multiclass prestige Cleric build!!!!

We could set an xp amount and an amount of gp spent on gear!!!

Then after writing them both up in a personal document including all gear and all memorized spells(including currently active casted spells), we could copy and paste both of them within seconds of each other and then Fight it out!!!

The Cleric Build will win!!!

And to rub it in I will take down your character in the end with subdual fist damage!!!! Just so I can deliver a Coup de grace with a feather, proving once again the pen is mightier that the sword!!!

[Chai]

[QUOTE=TheNarc;2698498]

The core restircts everything Chai, You are arguing from a standpoint and a guild from which most of all the other guilds in permadeath have spawned from as the people that left to form the new guilds didnt want the easy button.

I mean for me I originally looked to permadeath because I was tired of watching people die and rez in quests dozens of times to complete quests, I also knew the game was to easy if you went out and purchased the best gear so I never did even in Sublime, And now that I play without AH, Brokers and Vendors, I am actually feeling somewhat challenged, albeit not as much as Hardcore.

What Duncani and I are saying is that we both realize how easy Firewall is, would I use it - Yes, could I play a game where every quest was step and repeat tactics - Yes but I dont want to. Would I like to see it revised so it does not tick damage as rapidly - Yes


Many of the permadeathers are trying to emulate Pen and Paper, but even pen and paper would have different styles of campaigns, ie. Explorers/Sublime would be more Monty Haulish, most others would be consider Mid Range, and Hardcore would be Tournament Play!!!


Chai of all the people in the permadeath Community, go ahead and ask if I have ever been rezzed, that's right not a single time, not once!!!!

I am not arguing at all actually. My point is that prohibiting yourself from being able to buy / use items is not emulating PnP play, because in PnP play, you are not prohibited from doing so.

Sublime is not the easy button. Their ruleset allows players to play the entire content of the game, while other guilds restrict in game features, they too restrict playing in higher level content, or at least make it very unlikely. Ironically, Sublime actually is emulating PnP play MORE due to allowing purchases and use of in game features.

Not allowing yourself a res is also not emulating PnP. This is not an arguement of any kind, just a statement. You choose to do so to make it more difficult on your self and I can respect and even salute that. It doesnt bring you closer to PnP emulation however.

I wont insult people for playing their chosen play style, however, saying it emulates PnP play more due to restricting in game features is incorrect. I actually salute people who make it harder on themselves and are able to accomplish running higher level quests and such. They have solved their own problem with a system they feel is too easy. Rather than coming to the boards and ranting about the game is going to suck whe nthis or that new feature is implemented, they just choose not to use it and move on.

Also, I ran a permadeath server in NWN for 4 years that was alot more true to PnP play than anythign seen in DDO. There was no res out option. If you died, you had 20 minutes for a cleric to res you, or else you were dead, and your toon decayed into a pile of loot that was on the characters body. Quest zones were instanced, so if you didnt have a rezer in the group, you didnt have one of your friends logging on his or her cleric in order to roll on up and raise you, and you had to be in the same zone to invite someone into the quest.

My point here is that assuming I am talking from a stance of weakness or lack of knowledge because I choose to play in a guild with more relaxed rules in DDO is absolute rubbish. As you know, Sublime also allows players to make it harder on themselves by not doing the things they feel make the game less challenging. They are also playing all the higher end content, while the harder core guilds are still stuck in mid level ranges. Its a trade off really, nothing more. You are making the low end game more challenging while the higher end game becomes almost impossible. I know some of you skilled players will end up in the high end game though. I will be there to congratulate players who do, with no hate or arguement whatsoever.

[kafrielveddicus]

Our guild fully intends to do all high end content with the standard guild rules.

The true challenge will be can the Elite only group do the same!!!!

As far as a change to firewall I would like to see a change to the damage output of the spells per second, as in less often will creatures in the wall take damage allowing them a chance to target and attack!!!

Firewall is just plain boring really!!! I dismay the fact that I will be using it at some point!!!