Rogue Discrimination.

[Kalari]

did you say pony?

did you say routine also?

wat are you playing at kal?

lol oh its so on Friday night I swear lol ugh gonna be back on later fighting the sniffles and a wee bit tired from work so gonna lay down if I dont see ya tonight i'll be trying to kill you fraidnight

[Talon_Moonshadow]

lol I am soo not healing you no more


And lol Talon pretty much sigh I could not believe they wanted me to hold the lever while they went and fought the admantine golems the wizard of the group did not have disintegrate and because of the arcane oozes would have been the better candidate to watch the lever. But instead they told me to since "all the traps are down now.." did they really think it was their dps making all them wf drop instantly? lol. Then to hear the monk yelling at the caster over mic to hit the golems with force missiles I knew I was in a really bad pug. Poor guy he kept telling him "its saying immune.." I was just waiting for the inevitable "why are my firewalls healing them?"

sigh after that my rogue became guild/solo only sadly I just dont feel like being trap monkey only. Yeah I build to get traps to but I dont like the whole one trick pony routine.

My Rogue is my highest DPS char by far.

I did redo Talonkage's enhancments and have improved his DPS based on what I learned playing my pure Rogue. But only by having better equipment and being better buffed up does he come anywhere close to what my Rogue does with far less equipment.

I've fallen in love with Rogues.

They are a little squishy, but when you never get agro because nothing ever sees you until it's about to die.....not a problem very often.

They lack an effective long ranged attack. Which I see as a major weakness.

They depend heavily on special weapons for Undead, Elementals, and Constructs. But with the right weapons they do ok there.

I had planned on making a trap moneky, but the SA damage is so addictive, I don't have a single enhancment for traps right now.

yeah, I'm a little weak for some traps in the game....yeah it's embarrasing.

But man this killing stuff with no effort at all is really nice!

[Gorstag]

I just wish there was decent rogue builds on the forums. Then maybe I could make one. My rogue is just as the OP describes the group leaders view of rogues.

[stazer]

same, i have yet to find a rouge (done on purpose) build which can smash boxes and is a fine trap smith which will make party leaders happy. Im assuming it would be a halfling, splashed with barbarian for speed to get to boxes super fast, maybe ranger splash for sprint boost (16/2/2?)

[Lorien_the_First_One]

If rogues would just stick to their only job of opening locks it would all be good.

[Creddi]

Personal online rogue discrimination experience includes Neverwinter Nights, Diablo, Everquest, Everquest 2. I'm will say I've also been guilty of doing so in single player games that allow multiple characters (Ranging from Champions of Krynn to Dragon Age: Origins).

Rogues aren't low dps in EQ1. They were pretty gimped originally, but have been a top dps class for years. There are also next to no traps or locks in modern EQ. They are very gear dependant but that is a separate issue.

Group issues tend to be a matter of utility/healing/tanking trumping dps or being seen as doing so. But the dps is there.

NWN maybe because of the interface, but sneak attacks are pretty nice when you can couple them with attacks of opportunity, as I recall.

Diablo I don't really count. Way too simplistic.

[Creddi]

Actually there is one other possible source of discrimination I can think of... if you have a dex based rogue, they can't start with weapon finesse (since the rules for lord knows what reason have a pre-req of 1 BAB and rogues can't get that until 2nd). Thus the rogue might have trouble hitting for the first couple levels and seem gimped.

Similarly on traps, many seem to think that every rogue can simply afford max +disarm and +5 theives tools right from level 1. It can take a bit to get the gear to get established, and the impression given in those first few levels before rogues establish themselves might give a misleading picture.

Just a couple thoughts...

[Uska]

Rogues blow! Well, they blow up there kill count with their total uberness when built right! I usually only discriminate when I see a pure rogue...

Whats wrong with pure rogues keeping mine pure in hopes of a better capstone. That being said I have seen some rather poor rogues lately pure and otherwise.

[Shyver]

Whats wrong with pure rogues keeping mine pure in hopes of a better capstone. That being said I have seen some rather poor rogues lately pure and otherwise.

Don't stay pure. Go 19 rogue/1 anything, and once a better capstone comes out just use a +1 lesser TR.

[Retsam]

heh you'd be surprised how handy the rogue capstone actually is

anyways.. if people want to think rogues cant do anything.. let them lol
makes it more fun when you make them look stupid.

^_^

Retsam

p.s. My rogue is still my main.. and i rolled him April 25th 2006. 28 point builds FTW.. and whats better.. he was literally the 1st char i rolled in this game.

[Pyromaniac]

People turn players down for any reason, heck I got turned down on a character for shipwreck shore - the group had 5 players already in it. Its soloable, but guessing the leader was incompetent, and I was was better off not in the group. And it wasn't because the party leader didn't like me or anything.

[Razcar]

I've been a crusader against rogue discrimination for almost two years now. Sadly, I'm beginning to think that some of that discrimination is warranted.

Reading some of the builds on the forums, it's easy to see that many (most?) new players have a concept of a rogue build that they're not really willing to part with, despite being told by veterans that it's a problem. Instead of learning and adapting their ineffective build to the game, they'd rather defend that build with their fantasy concept of how the game is played.

This is unfortunately true. Rogue is my favourite class in DDO. It also the hardest melee class to effectively build, equip (contended with raid intimi-tanks) and play. It is not a class anyone new to the game should pick as a first character. It is not a class anyone having played in D&D should pick before doing extensive research how they work in DDO, either.

A rogue should be taking my fighter's kill count, lift it up, take a quick look and then squash it under his boot with a sneer. For all the kill score's inadequacies as a metric rogues should dominate it - they are not only supreme killers, but also supreme kill stealers. I have very seldom seen this unfortunately since starting on the US service. Instead I see frail little drow or elf ladies with romantic names, with HP-bars I can fill up with a few quick wand-whips, and whose stones are loitering the battlefield after every second fight.

And this is what other new players see as well, and then we get silly preconceptions like Ent (the OP) encountered. I honestly think Turbine should put a Favor limit on rogues as a class. Maybe 600 Favor. That means new players would have to chose rogues as their second character, when they hopefully have some more know-how.

Just when rogues had gotten a good reputation, and we had gotten rid of many bad builds and misconceptions, we got F2P and the rogue rep got bombed back to the stone age.

[Micron]

A bunch of discriminated level 16 trap monkeys in a completed hard Shroud.

[Razcar]

A bunch of discriminated level 16 trap monkeys in a completed hard Shroud.

Tuggi is still missing his money pouch from that run. And his ingredients bag. And his boots. And his girlfriend.

[gwlech]

I've been a crusader against rogue discrimination for almost two years now. Sadly, I'm beginning to think that some of that discrimination is warranted.

Reading some of the builds on the forums, it's easy to see that many (most?) new players have a concept of a rogue build that they're not really willing to part with, despite being told by veterans that it's a problem. Instead of learning and adapting their ineffective build to the game, they'd rather defend that build with their fantasy concept of how the game is played.

Far too many rogues are getting up to raid levels with too few hit points and the notion that they'll "just get traps, work the edges of the fight, and use a bow." They refuse to listen to advice and are living some fantasy that high level raid groups are going to stand 100 yards behind them while they creep through the dungeon and ensure it's safe to pass.

To repeat an analogy I used in another thread: Too many rogue are playing chess while the rest of us are playing checkers. Being the best chess player doesn't make it any more useful.

Now, the OP is dead on that a group leader simply being stupid and excluding rogues because he has no clue what they can do is a completely different thing. But an experienced player excluding PUG rogues because so many of them are poorly built...I'm starting to agree with.

This....is exactly what I have been trying to formulate for a while, only in as few words as this. Great way to explain it! +1

[Stealthdog]

I am seeing more and more of this lately (Orien), unfortunately. New players asking for advice on the advice channel on feats being told not to bother with TWF because Rogues won't do that much damage anyways. It is causing a problem with new players because they are being told in the game that their roles are to sneak around, disarm, etc and not to worry about meleeing. There is just alot of misinformation being told by people that really don't know, and unfortunately new players don't know that the people giving this advice don't know what they are talking about.

[Ministry]

I am seeing more and more of this lately (Orien), unfortunately. New players asking for advice on the advice channel on feats being told not to bother with TWF because Rogues won't do that much damage anyways. It is causing a problem with new players because they are being told in the game that their roles are to sneak around, disarm, etc and not to worry about meleeing. There is just alot of misinformation being told by people that really don't know, and unfortunately new players don't know that the people giving this advice don't know what they are talking about.

Are these people giving the advice those that don't know, don't care, are tards, or are selfish creeps that just want to push the new players / Rogues to the side so they can hog all the glory themselves.

Ya, you Rogue go and do this and that and stay out of my way while I get 100 kills. TY and move along now with pat on head.

Now, in some people's defence... the first Rogue I made was a dex based Rogue with very good Rogue skills and didn't do a lot of damage and had very low hps. So, he was best as a support type player. There is a time and place for a build like that, but nowadays, most Rogues can do so much more.

I learned this the hard way one time. I was on my dual wielding Ranger who kills a lot and fast, when out of no where a Rogue joins the group all humble and quiet and states he can handle all the traps, etc... and will pitch in here and there with combat. Well, the kill stealing SOB doubles my kill count. haha

Make a build, play it well and you will be amazed what you can do.

There are Strength based WF Rogues out there with 500 hps that will outkill everyone, or mostly everyone and then there are skill based Rogues that won't.

When a person asks you about advice on a build... do what I do... ask them what their goal is? Do you want to kill everything or do you want to be able to intimidate everything and have an ac to protect yourself or do you want to be a skill based trap monkey, or a combination of all 3.

A well build Rogue is in my opinion the most valuable in the game and why I'm going to be TR'ing into one, in hopes that all I have learned and what more I will learn will allow me to make a decent Rogue.

[Kovalas]

A bunch of discriminated level 16 trap monkeys in a completed hard Shroud.

Ooooo theres my little Rougi Bricks )

I miss him, I cant remake him as some numbnuts has taken the name, same race, same class and is stuck on level one, think someone has done it to spite me

Was a fun run ^^

Im making an Elf Shadow Assassin instead at the moment.....

Rogues Rule Stormreach )

[JOTMON]

Ahh yes the gimp classes.... and why do they click on my lfm.....

Rouges/rogues -do traps only, guess we need one if there is a trap in the quest but just one or we will fail.
Wizards- not enough mana get a sorc
Sorc - No dps so only get one and all we need is FW,GH Haste, dont waste mana doing anything else.
Cleric - healer only, but probably not enough mana get a Favored soul or we will need 3 of them and lose dps.
Favored Soul- no dps, no DV's, are you a healer only we dont want anything else
Barbarian - dont rage will take too much damage and suck mana from healers and cant get their own curses
Paladin- no dps, must have full ac aura and just stand by main tank.
Ranger- weak dps, ranged attacks are useless and all rangers only use bows.
Fighters- bad will saves but as long as they have all str/con/intimidate with full plate armor and shield up.
Bard- use to buy scrolls for clerics, song buffs for beholders, otherwise useless
Monk- What is healing curse and aligning heavens, fists of what... doesn't matter all monks are gimped

Multi-class- all gimped and useless never take a multi-class. only pure classes.
Warforged - cleric can't heal them, no WF unless you bring pots to heal yourself.

and they wonder why they never get their quests going...????

[Astars]

So on Thelanis yesterday and an LFM for Invaders elite is up, so i applied and was declined even though a rogue was in the LFM. So i sent a tell asking why. I will not name and shame the person but the converstion went like this.

Wondering why i was declined.

"No traps in here your a rogue"

Rogues just dont do traps you know

"Yes they do thats your job"

Actually i am an assassin build and yesterday did invaders elite and had the highest kills

"Must have been bad tanks in the party, Rogues only do traps thats it, it's your job"



At that point i had to laugh, the arrogance was amazing but the sheer blind stupidity of someone who has obviously never played a rogue was amazing.

Oh well went and did it with another group and had a blast.

And to the decliner in said thread, Guess what i had the highest kill count again, and had a nice completment about assassin builds. So dont worry about this rogue ever joining a one of your LFM's or any group you happen to be in..You know who you are.


Ent

Did his name start with Draug and end with kir?
You'll always be a support class, Ao, learn to deal with it.

Cheers

Ast