20 Kensai: TWF Dwarf (DA) or TWF WF (Khopesh)

[Ulf]

I have not ones said that khopesh wins all the time. On heavy fort mobs dwarven axe wins all the time. I am not saying khopesh is the end all be all weapon, i said pick what you think is cool.

But on average with the mobs in game the khopesh is better damage, i am not the only one saying that, i think you are the only claiming there this is a myth and that dwarven axe is just as good.

That is a complete lie. Look again. I have said in every post that if there is no mob AC and no mob fort kopesh is ahead. Ther is absolutely no point in responding further. You obviously do no want to have a real discussion of facts. You ignore things when it is convinent for you to do so. You evaggerate with claims like rapier/scimitar being better dps than DA. You ignore the OPs question compare wrong classes, want to include every possible piece of gear and every buff but ignore mob AC and/or fort.

me in tower of despair

Good for you. Now lets see that +54 means about 325 extra damage on 16 and 17 rolls (thats with 10 seeker and the extra kensai dmg and extra bursts added). The DA with the same buffs and gear, less PA enh will get about 135 extra damage on rolls 2-15 + 19-20. Thus a difference of 190 per 20 swings.

So, again kopesh wins if no consideration for mob fort or AC.
with 3 misses from kopesh and no mob fort, ther the same. (or say 1 miss and 50% fort)
with 1 or 2 misses and 75-100 fort, DA wins.

Meaning, even with max buffs/gear you keep wanting to use,
kopesh wins against norm/hard content.
kopesh/DA even against hard/elite content
DA wins against elite/epic

Which is what I said from the begining. Not to mention you still are ignoring the OPs question which clearly states "consider both are lvl 20 with average gear for that level, except both have mineral 2 weapons."

[Erdams]

Why do you insist on attack me as a person claiming i lie all i asked was a few questions to understand what was wrong.
Why do you see the example i posted being so wrong when as i see barb frenzi crit helps dwarven axe more than khopesh, instead of attacking me please help me understand what i am calculating wrong because you clearly stated it favors the khopesh must more if this is true the example is indeed bad so please assist me
Please explain why i am wrong in using 4damage from the 2 weapon spec feats, why it should be +3.

As for helping the OP's let me try to do so again, but based on Ulf's conclusion.

If he has average gear, i would not expect him to run epic and elite.

And according to Ulf:
kopesh wins against norm/hard content.
kopesh/DA even against hard/elite content
So for the purpose the OP asked Khopesh is better allround dps, based on Ulf's and everyone else reply

As for epic/elite, and we can stop talking about this if you want because it is proberly not relevant to the OP, you are the one insisting on it. You say only vs epic/elite is the dwarven better and that is when you assume he spends 6ap on +2to hit that i you , and almost no kensai's are taking, and if wf he takes wf pa, which he doesnt have to. So if he was to continually grind these and never do norm, which is not what he asked about, you expect him to take points that most kensais dont, and do it in average gear, and not max buffed, because then DA is better dps? I am sorry but i find these quests more tricky on toons not well equiped and buffed, but you might not.

Also dont kid yourself into thinking that most mobs will have heavy fort, this will never happen, and it is not the case now no matter if you do epic, elite or super duper ultra hard in mod 231. If everything was perma heavy fort, do you expect everyone playing rogues to keep paying for ddo?. So most mobs will always be no fort to mod fort. And there ways to make many heavy fort mobs loose their fort or some of it.

So if you only want to make general attacks against me, and cant be bothered to explain what i am calculating wrong then we have a different understanding of how to help people get a better understanding of the game. Also i am very sorry for mentioning other options to the OP, i was just trying to be helpfull and state that elf, drow and users of heavy picks could also be perfectly allright. If this is trivial knowledge to the OP i sincerly appologize., or if i offended him by giving him a bit of bonus information apart from what he asked i am sorry. But to be honest i only see you taking offense of this though i am not sure why

So perhaps in a less hostile tone Ulf, you could correct my math, and answer the question i asked? I dont like to write lies, or give bad advice, and i have no idea how to change it if you dont explain what is wrong in greater detail than that its a complete lie

[Ulf]

Why do you insist on attack me as a person claiming i lie all i asked was a few questions to understand what was wrong.

I have from the very first post in the thread said kopesh is better against low AC no fort mobs (aka norm mobs). You said I was claiming otherwise. I take offense to you saying the exact oppsite of what I posted. Hence I called you out on that lie. I'm not hostlie about it, but if you try to misrepresent my words I will point it out.

I will not get into personal attacks because it serves no perpose and is the mark of poor character.

[maddmatt70]

There is just a complete stubborness by a few people in this thread to acknowledge that a Kensai with most of the quality gear do not miss on elite/epic. The dwarven war axe and other to-hit enhancements for other weapon types are a non factor for a kensai. A level 20 kensai fighter with most of the quality end game gear should not take those enhancements.

I like the dwarven war axe over the khopesh for admittedly non power gamer reasons for my dwarven fighter because I think a dwarven war axe looks cool on a dwarf. It is a good weapon for a dwarf, but even for a dwarf it is not as good as a khopesh.

[Erdams]

/salute Maddmatt

OP read what he says

Ulf i have asked now in a serious of post to explain why you say i am wrong on some specific points, i cant see it myself so enlighten me.

And i know that you have said quote "khopesh is better against low AC no fort mobs (aka norm mobs)" but what the rest of us i arguing that its only vs the heavy fort mobs its not the case and those are very different things. No one is arguing that if mob has 0AC and fort the khopesh is best, no one is arguing that the kopesh is better vs heavy fort. It that the khopesh is best for 95% of what is in between we are arguing. And there you claim them to be even, and I and some other claim khopesh to be best.

But if dont have the decency to explain to me what is wrong in my numbers and calculation then i dont know what to do. All i ask is that you explain the questions so i know what i did wrong, is that a terrible thing or why are you refusing to do it? ... hey i might learn something thats a good thing

[Aranticus]

/salute Maddmatt

OP read what he says

Ulf i have asked now in a serious of post to explain why you say i am wrong on some specific points, i cant see it myself so enlighten me.

And i know that you have said quote "khopesh is better against low AC no fort mobs (aka norm mobs)" but what the rest of us i arguing that its only vs the heavy fort mobs its not the case and those are very different things. No one is arguing that if mob has 0AC and fort the khopesh is best, no one is arguing that the kopesh is better vs heavy fort. It that the khopesh is best for 95% of what is in between we are arguing. And there you claim them to be even, and I and some other claim khopesh to be best.

But if dont have the decency to explain to me what is wrong in my numbers and calculation then i dont know what to do. All i ask is that you explain the questions so i know what i did wrong, is that a terrible thing or why are you refusing to do it? ... hey i might learn something thats a good thing

erdams, there is really no point arguing with ulf as hes is set all out to disprove the khopesh. he discussed on the merits of the +2 attack for racial which i quoted my +56 attack number. first he tried to discount it as being uber buffed, star aligned and then trying to inform me that i'm missing on rolls of 2 and 3 on epic while refusing to acknowledge the attack progression bonuses and suggesting that all elite and epic mobs have humongous AC

i next quoted the +50 to damage and again, the same uber gear applies but in the latest posts he talks about how elite/epic has 100% fortified mobs without clearing indicating the %

in my screenshot, he again talks about me missing. i mean anyone with limited intelligence will be able to see that if i miss on a 3 with a +56 attack, with a +65, i wont! and he is still harping on the max buffed senario which goes to prove how limited his knowledge of the game is since he said earlier the +56 is max buffed! more importantly, the screenshot wasnt even maxed buffed. here is what i was missing

1. herzou cookie +4 str
2. +4 tome +2 str
3. double madstone +4 str
4. house d +2/3 alchemical pot +2/3 str

in all total max achieveable str will be another +12 which means, in full buffed stars aligned, it will be +71 attack, +60 damage. should i change my kensai set to a shintao set, it'll be +68 attack, +62 damage

as far as it goes, unless we have an actual breakdown of the available mobs and the fortification, it is impossible for us to know which weapon is best in which content. the only thing we can be 100% for is this

in 100% fort situation: d-axe > khopesh
in 50% fort situation, no seeker, damage bonus <52: d-axe > khopesh
in 50% fort situation, +10 seeker, damage bonus <38: d-axe > khopesh
in 0% fort situation, no seeker, damage bonus <25: d-axe > khopesh
in 0% fort situation, +10 seeker, damage bonus <11: d-axe > khopesh

in conclusion

100% fort: d-axe is better
50% fort: khopesh is better
0% fort: khopesh is better

do note that after we include in crit effects on weapons, the damage bonus required will be even lower for 50% and 0% fort situations

[Vanshilar]

in 100% fort situation: d-axe > khopesh
in 50% fort situation, no seeker, damage bonus <52: d-axe > khopesh
in 50% fort situation, +10 seeker, damage bonus <38: d-axe > khopesh
in 0% fort situation, no seeker, damage bonus <25: d-axe > khopesh
in 0% fort situation, +10 seeker, damage bonus <11: d-axe > khopesh

in conclusion

100% fort: d-axe is better
50% fort: khopesh is better
0% fort: khopesh is better

do note that after we include in crit effects on weapons, the damage bonus required will be even lower for 50% and 0% fort situations

A minor thing I want to point out, that in my graphs, the weapon enhancement bonus (and racial damage enhancement) aren't included in the x-axis values (they were assumed to be +5 for the khopesh and +7 for the dwarven axe due to racial damage), whereas when you look at your inventory screen, they are included. The reason why I did this is so I can compare unique weapons which may not be +5 (for example, comparing the Carnifex with a GS falchion and GS greataxe) in my spreadsheets. So you would need to add 5 to the damage break-even points (7 if using dwarven axe) when you look at the inventory screen, for example, for 50% fort, +10 seeker, damage bonus < 43 (if using khopesh) then dwarven axe would've been better. This might make a difference depending on how decked out you are, as to which will be better for you for 50% fort. It should be pretty clear though that for 0% fort, the khopesh is better, while for 100% fort, the dwarven axe is better. The general consensus for the khopesh is due to that there are more 0% fort monsters than there are high-fort ones. And of course, when we say "better", we're talking about a difference within 10% usually, which may be important for powergamers but hardly the thing to lose sleep over or make or break a build.

[Aranticus]

A minor thing I want to point out, that in my graphs, the weapon enhancement bonus (and racial damage enhancement) aren't included in the x-axis values (they were assumed to be +5 for the khopesh and +7 for the dwarven axe due to racial damage), whereas when you look at your inventory screen, they are included. The reason why I did this is so I can compare unique weapons which may not be +5 (for example, comparing the Carnifex with a GS falchion and GS greataxe) in my spreadsheets. So you would need to add 5 to the damage break-even points (7 if using dwarven axe) when you look at the inventory screen, for example, for 50% fort, +10 seeker, damage bonus < 43 (if using khopesh) then dwarven axe would've been better. This might make a difference depending on how decked out you are, as to which will be better for you for 50% fort. It should be pretty clear though that for 0% fort, the khopesh is better, while for 100% fort, the dwarven axe is better. The general consensus for the khopesh is due to that there are more 0% fort monsters than there are high-fort ones. And of course, when we say "better", we're talking about a difference within 10% usually, which may be important for powergamers but hardly the thing to lose sleep over or make or break a build.

yeap, benchmarking rocks!

[Ulf]

erdams, there is really no point arguing with ulf as hes is set all out to disprove the khopesh. he discussed on the merits of the +2 attack for racial which i quoted my +56 attack number. first he tried to discount it as being uber buffed, star aligned and then trying to inform me that i'm missing on rolls of 2 and 3 on epic while refusing to acknowledge the attack progression bonuses and suggesting that all elite and epic mobs have humongous AC
No, i said all you have to do is miss on a 2/3 to make them even, which is why I din't even go into attack progressions. With a +56 attack you will miss a whole lot more than that. I used 2/3 to point out that it takes just a few misses to even out. Also, you and others want to claim to hit means nothing so WF kopesh can take the extra PA enhancements to get 3 more dmg. You take the extra 3 dmg to improve dps numbers and ignore the - to Hit, which compared to a dwarf when both take racials is 5, not 2.

i next quoted the +50 to damage and again, the same uber gear applies but in the latest posts he talks about how elite/epic has 100% fortified mobs without clearing indicating the %
I have from the start pointed out how you keep wanting to use the best gear and buffs. Despite the OP clearly pointing out that was not what he was inquiring about. And I never said 100% fort mobs.

in my screenshot, he again talks about me missing. i mean anyone with limited intelligence will be able to see that if i miss on a 3 with a +56 attack, with a +65, i wont! and he is still harping on the max buffed senario which goes to prove how limited his knowledge of the game is since he said earlier the +56 is max buffed! more importantly, the screenshot wasnt even maxed buffed. here is what i was missing

1. herzou cookie +4 str
2. +4 tome +2 str
3. double madstone +4 str
4. house d +2/3 alchemical pot +2/3 str

in all total max achieveable str will be another +12 which means, in full buffed stars aligned, it will be +71 attack, +60 damage. should i change my kensai set to a shintao set, it'll be +68 attack, +62 damage

as far as it goes, unless we have an actual breakdown of the available mobs and the fortification, it is impossible for us to know which weapon is best in which content. the only thing we can be 100% for is this
Actually, people do have breakdowns of AC, which on epic can go up to 78, so even with "full buffed stars aligned", you miss. Not to mention when stars aren't aligned. But hey, you'll just keep ignoring that. Just like you ignored me pointing out you corrected the numbers for all weapons but the kopesh. (which I let slide, giving you the benefit of the doubt that it was an honest mistake. oops)


in 100% fort situation: d-axe > khopesh
in 50% fort situation, no seeker, damage bonus <52: d-axe > khopesh
in 50% fort situation, +10 seeker, damage bonus <38: d-axe > khopesh
in 0% fort situation, no seeker, damage bonus <25: d-axe > khopesh
in 0% fort situation, +10 seeker, damage bonus <11: d-axe > khopesh

in conclusion

100% fort: d-axe is better
50% fort: khopesh is better
0% fort: khopesh is better

do note that after we include in crit effects on weapons, the damage bonus required will be even lower for 50% and 0% fort situations

Again you ignore mob AC and use max gear and buffs to slant toward kopesh. But fact is you will still have misses and the difference to dwarf would be 5 to Hit not 2 since you seem to want to keep PA going for the extra damage.
And since you apparently think I making that up, here are a few threads that discuss mob AC in epics, 1, 2, 3.

I'm sure you'll find some way to explain it away anyways and show how kopesh is the super uber leet weapon in all circumstances. And I sure most viewers of this thread will be glad to see you have decided to stoop to personal attacks. Obviously you and others are not intrested in having a civil conversation on the issue and discussing the facts. But at least some people have been able to learn from this thread and see that kopesh is not the only way to go. Therefore, barring an unforseen change there doen't appear to be any reason to continue this thread in the direction its now going.

Finally, to Vanshilar, thanks for the graphs. But as you have seen people will want to tweek detailed numbers to favor their view. You tried to offer an impartial view, thanks. I will not ask you to change mods to favor one view or another, even though I believe you are still missing some details in the calculations. Beyond the fact that even your latest graphs showing the difference between weaps is small, you will never have certain people agree to the exact numbers.

[maddmatt70]

Again you ignore mob AC and use max gear and buffs to slant toward kopesh. But fact is you will still have misses and the difference to dwarf would be 5 to Hit not 2 since you seem to want to keep PA going for the extra damage.
And since you apparently think I making that up, here are a few threads that discuss mob AC in epics, 1, 2, 3.

I'm sure you'll find some way to explain it away anyways and show how kopesh is the super uber leet weapon in all circumstances. And I sure most viewers of this thread will be glad to see you have decided to stoop to personal attacks. Obviously you and others are not intrested in having a civil conversation on the issue and discussing the facts. But at least some people have been able to learn from this thread and see that kopesh is not the only way to go. Therefore, barring an unforseen change there doen't appear to be any reason to continue this thread in the direction its now going.

Finally, to Vanshilar, thanks for the graphs. But as you have seen people will want to tweek detailed numbers to favor their view. You tried to offer an impartial view, thanks. I will not ask you to change mods to favor one view or another, even though I believe you are still missing some details in the calculations. Beyond the fact that even your latest graphs showing the difference between weaps is small, you will never have certain people agree to the exact numbers.

By threads you are referring to one poster who plays a max strength barbarian who makes miss claims. That is the problem right there your data sucks. For some reason without any experience of your own or playing a fighter in the epic content you think you are an authority on it or some such drivel.

[Ulf]

By threads you are referring to one poster who plays a max strength barbarian who makes miss claims. That is the problem right there your data sucks. For some reason without any experience of your own or playing a fighter in the epic content you think you are an authority on it or some such drivel.

I could care less if one poster says he misses or not. But fact remains and is supported in those threads and others that epic mobs most definetly have AC that for some exceed 70.
I know it to be true from running quite a few epics myself, but I also know people such as yourself would just claim I never have run a single epic. Therefore, I posted threads from others, but you just ignore those as well. Just goes to show that there is no need to respond to you any further as far as this topic is considered. You will only believe what you want to believe, anyone differing is a liar in your opinion.

[Aranticus]

Ulf, I'm not sure about you but if I'm doing epic, I'm definately going to have the best gear available. To run epic without anything short on stellar gear
means the healer got a whole lot of slack to pick up. On 65 attack, it really means 65/65/70/70/75/75. The attack progression is important and should not be ignored. On a melée player there is tharnes goggles (+5 backstab) improved destruction (-8 ac). These are going to ensure that the mobs will be hit. Last but not least, by your posters, you actually mean shade, who is let's just say, even more special

[Erdams]

I asked you a few questions where you claim i was wrong, now when I ask you to back up those claims you refuse to? Kinda makes it hard to have a real discussion with you

Even if there where a few mobs in the epic quests where you miss, that does not make the dwarven axe better overall dps or just as good as the khopesh. Also your assumption is the dwarf has spend 6ap on the tohit, that the ac is not so high that PA has to be turned off for both to be able to hit, none of these things have to be the case.

Sure in the case that the mob has an excatly high enough ac for the da to be able to hit with pa on a 2, and the khopesh to miss on 2-3 or perhaps 2-5, because the dwarf has spend the 6 ap and perhaps wf ench, the mobs dies faster than it gets debuffed, you start your attack chain on +0 and it dies, and you dont have enough damage on khopesh to catch up on the later attack chains etc etc then the dwarven axe is better dps. Are you really using this as an reason to why the dwarven axe is just as good dps? There are so many assumptions there that most likely will never be the case in an epic quest, that this will only be true for a small amount of the time.

The fact is if you look at what people are doing at level 20 (this is the question from op) they dont spend their time grinding quests on elite. They grind them on normal same goes for quests. So for 90% of things he is doing khopesh is better even by your own word. Sure if he decides to go epic there might be some cases where he could have the same or slightly better dps with a dwarven axe. Assuming he burns 6ap on +2 tohit that almost no people do on a pure kensai, and even you dont seem to be taking on your dwarf. If you are taking these posts your enhancements we at least can see what you are leaving out to get these.

Funny thing is that if you had end game gear shown in the post with a seeker item you calculate 325 damage, this means the he could just turn off pa and still do more damage than the khopesh. Assuming that the ac might be so high the da also misses on low rolls then it would be even higher difference hehe. This is ofcourse requirering full buffs and raid loot, but vs those mobs i think its fair to assume that else you wouldnt hit them at all

Being the best dps weapon is not about being the best vs every single mob in the game, no one is claiming this! Its about being the best total dps against everything you face. Since khopesh is higher dps against the majority of things you will be killing at level 20, then over all it is higher dps. If you look at what the OP is expected to do, even more so. And when he does get all the raid gear etc and do epics, it will still be
Are there cases where DA is better sure but no one is arguing this.

[Ulf]

Ulf, I'm not sure about you but if I'm doing epic, I'm definately going to have the best gear available. To run epic without anything short on stellar gear
means the healer got a whole lot of slack to pick up. On 65 attack, it really means 65/65/70/70/75/75. The attack progression is important and should not be ignored. On a melée player there is tharnes goggles (+5 backstab) improved destruction (-8 ac). These are going to ensure that the mobs will be hit. Last but not least, by your posters, you actually mean shade, who is let's just say, even more special

I run epic with whos online in the guild. I run my ftr, my barb, ny cleric, my caster, whatever. I run with guys that have varying level of gear. I know what differences it can make and its nowhere near the impact of using smart team play. You by no means need to have max gear to run epic. Groups that have guys with avg 2-3 pieces of raid gear and no +3 or +4 tomes can get through just fine and from playing cleric in those groups as well as groups with pimped out chars, there is not a big difference. In both cases, no mana pots are used, at most 20 heal scrolls and the time to completion is not drastically changed.
As to attack I like how you first said 56 to Hit, then raised to 60s, then raised to 70s. And believe it or not I know about attack progression. You simply will not admit that there will be misses. The to Hit in the mid high 50s is an accurate representation of what the OP asked, but even with 60s or even 70 to hit there will be misses.
As to Shade, he does make some "colorful" claims about his chars. I don't really care, but where did anyone post that mob AC is not high on epic? What about the others in those posts that says epic mob AC is high? You want to move to focus away from the facts, so you give indirect insults to a poster not even involved in this thread.

I asked you a few questions where you claim i was wrong, now when I ask you to back up those claims you refuse to? Kinda makes it hard to have a real discussion with you
barb FB not equal to Ftr kensai, why you don't understand that is beyond me. I can not say it more plainly.

Even if there where a few mobs in the epic quests where you miss, that does not make the dwarven axe better overall dps or just as good as the khopesh. Also your assumption is the dwarf has spend 6ap on the tohit, that the ac is not so high that PA has to be turned off for both to be able to hit, none of these things have to be the case.
Again, I never tried to claim DA is better overall. And last time I looked it was the player that chose what enhancements to employ on their chars, not you. So because you said it doesn't happen means jack.

Sure in the case that the mob has an excatly high enough ac for the da to be able to hit with pa on a 2, and the khopesh to miss on 2-3 or perhaps 2-5, because the dwarf has spend the 6 ap and perhaps wf ench, the mobs dies faster than it gets debuffed, you start your attack chain on +0 and it dies, and you dont have enough damage on khopesh to catch up on the later attack chains etc etc then the dwarven axe is better dps. Are you really using this as an reason to why the dwarven axe is just as good dps? There are so many assumptions there that most likely will never be the case in an epic quest, that this will only be true for a small amount of the time.
Its not when mob has exactly enough AC to have kopesh miss on 2/3. If mob AC has kopesh miss on 2-10, DA will only miss on 2-5 (2-8 if niether using PA). I stated misses on 2/3 to point out the MINIMUM that would swing the balance, more misses, means more favor to DA. As to assumptions, I am not the one that keeps demanding that you must assume max gear and max buffs, exactly oppsite of what the OP asked. You are the one wanting to make the assumptions and slant everything in favor of the kopesh, reguardless of what was asked.

The fact is if you look at what people are doing at level 20 (this is the question from op) they dont spend their time grinding quests on elite. They grind them on normal same goes for quests. So for 90% of things he is doing khopesh is better even by your own word. Sure if he decides to go epic there might be some cases where he could have the same or slightly better dps with a dwarven axe. Assuming he burns 6ap on +2 tohit that almost no people do on a pure kensai, and even you dont seem to be taking on your dwarf. If you are taking these posts your enhancements we at least can see what you are leaving out to get these.
Again, my personal decesions for enhancements on a ftr are irrelavant. Fact is you can take all dps related enhancements and DA enhancements with AP left over. How someone spends those AP is choice (hp, saves, tactics, etc...). What people do at 20 is there choice. I have clearly stated more than a dozen times, if that is running on normal kopeah will win. You keep implying that I have said something contrary to that, again I point out that is an out and out lie. Please stop misrepresenting what I say.

Funny thing is that if you had end game gear shown in the post with a seeker item you calculate 325 damage, this means the he could just turn off pa and still do more damage than the khopesh. Assuming that the ac might be so high the da also misses on low rolls then it would be even higher difference hehe. This is ofcourse requirering full buffs and raid loot, but vs those mobs i think its fair to assume that else you wouldnt hit them at all
Turn off PA and DA looses 5 dmg and gains 5 to Hit, while WF kopesh looses 5-8 dng and gains 5-8 to Hit. PA off might make both hit on all but 1s, but guess what, lowering the dmg mod causes the kopesh to fall back to DA dmg even when no misses. So, med-high AC still favors DA.

Being the best dps weapon is not about being the best vs every single mob in the game, no one is claiming this! Its about being the best total dps against everything you face. Since khopesh is higher dps against the majority of things you will be killing at level 20, then over all it is higher dps. If you look at what the OP is expected to do, even more so. And when he does get all the raid gear etc and do epics, it will still be
Are there cases where DA is better sure but no one is arguing this.
Again, I have repeatedly said, if no misses and no fort, kopesh will definetly win. You ARE trying to argue kopesh is best dps v every mob. You want to claim its best for any level of content. You ignore the OP request and keep trying to throw in anything that would help your claims.

Not suprised in the least, you simply ignore facts again. Wave your hands and claim its all an illusion. Is it so hard to accept that the weapon or build you happen to use is not the best all the time?

[maddmatt70]

I run epic with whos online in the guild. I run my ftr, my barb, ny cleric, my caster, whatever. I run with guys that have varying level of gear. I know what differences it can make and its nowhere near the impact of using smart team play. You by no means need to have max gear to run epic. Groups that have guys with avg 2-3 pieces of raid gear and no +3 or +4 tomes can get through just fine and from playing cleric in those groups as well as groups with pimped out chars, there is not a big difference. In both cases, no mana pots are used, at most 20 heal scrolls and the time to completion is not drastically changed.

It sounds to me like you and your friends do not have enough gear yet. That is what I am referring to when a fighter has most/to all of the gear they stop missing. The tower ring kensai set is very helpful for a fighter for instance. Your comments about time are off the mark. I have seen in chain of flames and DQ1 Epics if you have some substandard players and that includes lacking gear the completion time takes significantly longer. Even in wiz king and offering blood it can take longer although those quests can be far more about the spellcasters.

[Ulf]

It sounds to me like you and your friends do not have enough gear yet. That is what I am referring to when a fighter has most/to all of the gear they stop missing. The tower ring kensai set is very helpful for a fighter for instance. Your comments about time are off the mark. I have seen in chain of flames and DQ1 Epics if you have some substandard players and that includes lacking gear the completion time takes significantly longer. Even in wiz king and offering blood it can take longer although those quests can be far more about the spellcasters.

Exactly the attitude I would expect.
First off to your speculation to level of gear I and guildies have, I guess a double reincarnate, with 12 T3 shroud (8 double supremes) items, 3 fully upgraded ToD sets, mad boots, gyro boots, jerky, spec gloves, DT plate, litany, sandstrom goggles, bloodstone, one +4 tome, four +3 tomes, one +2 tome, etc... is poorly geared, cuz that's jsu one melee character but by what you said, that must suck. Or that we each don't have every alt fully pimped out is maybe your point, and they're just not uber enough to do epic yet.

Second, while "substandard players" can definetly cause major headaches and delays in epic dungeons. It is not that dependant on gear, but then again I don't play with button mashers, we actually use tactics and dont rely on "mongo kill bad man" style of play. We can adapt to what is present in the party, we do not have to run "perfect" group. Believe it or not you can do epics without a bard (I know this is a shock to you, but its true). See I would define a substandard player as one that is limited to be useful only if their gear is the best. A good player knows how to adapt their characters play in less than perfect conditions so that they still contribute to the sucess of the party.

Third, its nice to see you as others still will not acknoweledge simple facts. Epic content, people (even full gear/buffed) will have some misses. Strapping on a pair of kopeshes does not turn a WF kensai into a diety. There are other weapons and builds and strats that are effective in this game.

Oh, and finally, another great response to the OP question relating to comparing WF kopesh TWF kensai to dwarf DA TWF kensai "if you consider both are lvl 20 with average gear for that level, except both have mineral 2 weapons".

[Erdams]

Ulf i am sorry but i am convinced you dont know how to read or dont want to read what we write

I write: Being the best dps weapon is not about being the best vs every single mob in the game, no one is claiming this!

Two lines below you correct me:
You ARE trying to argue kopesh is best dps v every mob.

That is the direct opposite of what i wrote how can you keep arguing like this?

I ask if you dont understand the concept of crit power based on your barb vs ftr calc, you answer that i said FB and kensai are the same. I never said they are the same, i tried to show you dont know how to calculate with crit power, but you refuse to listen or atleast admit you where wrong. Or if you are right explain it. You said i was wrong in my calculations, this is NOT about FB and Kensai being the same!!!

I show numbers you posted that proves that on elite content that if the khopesh misses on 2-5 he can turn off pa and still be HIGHER dps than the DA with PA.

You answer: Turn off PA and DA looses 5 dmg and gains 5 to Hit, while WF kopesh looses 5-8 dng and gains 5-8 to Hit. PA off might make both hit on all but 1s, but guess what, lowering the dmg mod causes the kopesh to fall back to DA dmg even when no misses. So, med-high AC still favors DA.

Even with your calculation of high ac, there are so many factors you dont count like attack chains, potential debuffs etc, the likely hood that a fighter will only use first to attack chains, all mobs die before being debuffed is slim to none, i tried to explain this. Because that means that sure the da could be more on the first two rounds but if the khopesh is that more dps on the last for it can still be better, and even more so if the mob is debuffed for the rest of the fight.

If you are arguing that if you only grind epic quest with medium gear and not solid raid gear and strong buffs the da can be better vs the high ac mobs in the quest, then sure you are right ... but is that really relevant to anything? who grind epics all day with medium gear?

You correct me and say weapon spec feats gives a +3 to dam not the +4 i list but dont back it up what ddo client are you running?

You say that i ignore the OP question, well he asked for advice.

My advice was if you are only looking at dps khopseh is the best OVERALL dps, but take what your think is cool.

Your advice sounds to me like, Dwarven axe is just as good dps in epic/elite quests if you use 12 ap, where the 6 of them most never spend because they would then gimp their tactical dc, hp or something else. But you refuse to help him what he should not take, you simply claim its even dps with the khopesh.

I argue that if you every week do completions of the raids to get loot/completions and grind ings from shround a few quests and some epic etc (this is what people do at endgame mostly). The total dps you deal in a weak is higher from the khopesh because it is better vs the majority of mobs you meet. You keep arguing dwarven axe is just as good because its better vs 10% of things you fight in a given week.

So let me say this again no one is arguing the khopesh is best vs anything in the game!!! But if you look at the total mobs you fight at end game, and sum the dps you deal vs those, then khopesh is the best allround dps weapon in DDO. You keep trying to post scenarios where the DA is better to disprove this, we are saying that even in some of those ie epic quests we believe the khopesh to be better overall dps.

On a final note lets assume a mobs has ac 70+ or what ever so the khopesh miss on 2 more than the DA. This means that the khopesh will loose 2*base dam per round and 10% crit dam from 10% less confirm rolls sticking. With a base dam of 65 that is 130 . Add that to the 137.5 the khopesh needed to catch up with the da from weapon base damage you get 267.5 then you subtract 10% from the crit dam of 325 you get = 292.5 This is even assuming they miss in all attack chain parts.

So even on uber ac mobs and if you do spend the 6 ap, then the khopesh is still better dps at the end game sure with medium gear the DA will be better if you miss alot, but are you arguing that the OP asked what was best dps with medium gear for griding epic quests? but thats not how i read his question.

So we are down to heavy fort and mobs with medium fort and very very high ac where the DA wins at end game. And tbh i dont think at one point anyone has claimed other wise. So are you sayind that these cases make up 50% of the game and the mobs you fight in a given week? because if you fight those types 50% or more of the time you swing your weapon then i agree the DA is better, if not then the khopesh is best overall dps.

[Ulf]

Erdams,
You are claiming that kopeah is better against norm/hard/elite/epic, but you say you're not claiming its best against everything. So either you mean DA is better on solo or casual or you're full of it and actually are trying to claim kopesh is best against everything.
I clearly have said when kopesh wins, if a person plays the majority of the time at that content level, then kopesh will be best for them. I don't decide what content anyone plays so I gave what info I could, what setup is best for what level of content.

But at least you come up with more fairy tails, to those that might not notice them, I'll point a few out:

-I never said only first attack chain or mobs dying before debuff.
-Its not a claculation of mob AC, mob AC is what it is, backed up by posts from others.
-I did not "assume" gear/buffs level, the OP clearly stated what he was asking, you and others continue to ignore that. You are the one that assumes max gear/buffs.
-If kopesh misses on 2-5 and turns off PA, DA doesn't turn off power attack and both don't miss, so thats 8pt per non-crit in favor of DA (PA off kopesh -8). So thats 29*8 = 232 more dmg in favor of DA, + the previously mentioned 137 from base dmg, thats 369, which last time I checked was > 325.
-How does not taking dwf tactics III (6AP) "gimp" a chars tactics? I still get DC of 50 with stunning blow and 54 for trip, I can surely see how that is gimp. Or maybe its not taking FTR toughness III and racial toughness III for those 30 hp, that almost gets me below 500 (clearly gimped).
-On mob AC of 74 and 78 (reported for epic) what to hit is you WF kopesh TWF kensai running with what gear/buffs? If its less than 69/73 thats misses in more than first attack progression. I won't even ask that you use normal gear/buffs as requested in the OP.

[BlackSteel]

-On mob AC of 74 and 78 (reported for epic) what to hit is you WF kopesh TWF kensai running with what gear/buffs? If its less than 69/73 thats misses in more than first attack progression. I won't even ask that you use normal gear/buffs as requested in the OP.

try running the content before you spout your mouth off. a VAST majority of the mobs in epic content have AC nowhere near this range. A to hit above 50 is serviceable for everything but a handfull of monsters (of which you can destruct/improved destruct, or just roast them in a firewall)

making an agruement that a racial weapon is better because the extra +2 to hit is needed ON A FIGHTER in order to hit a monster on a 2 before debuffs is just silly.

the perk of the dwarven axe is the base damage agaisnt heavily fortified or crit immune monsters; the racial to hit bonus is a waste of APs for any full BaB class.

[Ulf]

try running the content before you spout your mouth off. a VAST majority of the mobs in epic content have AC nowhere near this range. A to hit above 50 is serviceable for everything but a handfull of monsters (of which you can destruct/improved destruct, or just roast them in a firewall)

making an agruement that a racial weapon is better because the extra +2 to hit is needed ON A FIGHTER in order to hit a monster on a 2 before debuffs is just silly.

the perk of the dwarven axe is the base damage agaisnt heavily fortified or crit immune monsters; the racial to hit bonus is a waste of APs for any full BaB class.

Nice try, do you feel superior? I have already said I run epic content quite a bit. Regardless of wether you belive it or not, I have listed other posts which verify mob AC on epic.
1. Did not say the majority were 74/78 AC. majority are high 50s to mid 60s.
2. I will agree a kensai ftr will easily have to Hit in 50s. But that will mean some misses on majority of mobs. Others in thread are claiming 70 to hit, they want to include every piece of gear and every buff/pot imaginable and that they never miss. Seems fair to compare that to known ACs in epic. Or do you claim having every piece of gear and running every possible buff at all times is reasonable.
3. A 50 to hit may be "servicable", I agree, that does not mean it won't miss. Or that you may have to turn off PA. Both favor DA.
4. The difference in to Hit is not 2 it is 5, or are you trying to say a TWF WF w/kopesh won't be taking the PA enhancements?
5. What would you say those 6AP will get instead of +2 to Hit? +1 tactic, 30 hp? Please tell us all what major benefit is being missed.
6. Firewall, last I checked, is not a kensai ability. And if you want to have caster do all your damage than what does it matter what weaps/build the melees have.