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  1. #41
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    The graphs are all normalized (i.e. divided by) the khopesh damage at that enhancement damage, so it's all given in terms of % of khopesh. Without doing that normalization, yes all the lines would be straight, and for 100% fort, it's just the base damage plus the enhancement, such as this graph:

    http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a...ar/dvsk100.gif

    It's the dividing by the khopesh damage that produces the curved lines, because everything is expressed in terms of % of khopesh damage rather than a straight number. But I chose to express it this way because I figure that the relative strength of the weapons are easier to compare visually in this format (i.e. in terms of % of khopesh for that given amount of damage enhancement). Otherwise, the graph looks like this:

    http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a...ilar/wvsk0.gif

    which I felt wasn't very revealing because the lines are squished together. Dividing by khopesh damage is just a quick way to spread out the lines, and also give a more intuitive feel to the numbers; you can see what % damage you'll be doing relative to using a khopesh. If you're powergamer you'd probably look at the right part of the graph, due to the extra amount of buffing available to you; if you're a regular joe schmo you'd probably look at the middle to left part to see what you can expect without all the raid equipment.

    For the graphs, I assume that dwarven axe, scimitar/rapier, and longsword all have +2 racial damage enhancements, while the khopesh and heavy pick don't. This is why, against 100% fort, the longsword still beats the khopesh; otherwise yes the two would be identical (the longsword line would just stay at the 100% line).

    You're right that though the graphs assume the +1 crit range from kensai, but not the +4 to critical damage (before critical multipliers) that you'd get as a prereq. I didn't really want to complicate the graphs with too many variables (since, as you pointed out, this +4 will also stack with seeker items, which introduce another variable to account for, namely item selection). I'll update it with seeker values (I suppose I'll assume +10 total to critical damage before multiplier unless anyone recommends a better value) in a bit.

  2. #42
    Community Member Ulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengenance View Post
    I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but WF just like Dwarves have enhancements for racial tactics, constitution, and toughness enhancements. If that is what you meant to say then you are correct, if you're saying WF do not have these then you are wrong.

    The Dwarven SR enhancements suck so I wouldn't call that an advantage.

    Divine healing is not a problem on WF at end game, especially if you get the bracers from the hound and take the first level of healer's friend. I wouldn't call it inefficient in the least, and this is coming from someone who has capped a couple of clerics. The ability for them to be healed using both divine and arcane spells is incredibly valuable IMO and offsets any small inefficiencies with divine spells.
    As to the tactis enhancments, you initally listed it only for WF, I was just pointing out both dwarves and WF have it.
    As to divine healing, yes with items and enhancements, WF are not problematic to divine heal. But that requires item slots and AP. The divine and arcane healing can definetly be nice.
    Again, I'm not saying one is better than the other. Just clearifying the differences.

  3. #43
    Community Member Ulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    i stand with madmatt on this one. on the epic stuff i did, i have no problems hitting. first 2 swings i can grant you some slack but on subsequent swings on you sequence you get progressively larger to hit bonus due to the attack progression. even on the 1st swing, i'm not missing much

    but madmatt's question is still valid, have you done epic yourself?
    You had no problem, yet you had misses (with your max buffs and items). Just a few misses is all it takes. But misses and fort, clearly DA will be ahead. You apparently think "not missing much" is the same as never missing. As I have repeatedly said, if never miss and no fort kopesh wins. But you have yourself admitted to misses and that there is some fort on high end content.

    And to wether I have run high end content is irrelevant, it doesn't change the facts if I had or hadn't. But to answer your question, yes I have run epic quite a bit. That still canges nothing.

    Another thing about elite/epic, do you or your groups ever use stunning blow? If so how does that help kopesh uber superiorty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    DA 26

    16 hits, 3x3 crits = 16+9 = 25

    Scimitar 27 26
    Hvy Pick 29 28
    Kopesh 30
    And yes I made a mistake in numbers by one for each weapon you listed, AND THE KOPESH (14 hits, 5x3 crits = 29), but I guess its just coincidence that you left that off. So all weapons but rapier would be less in the comparison. The effect on dmg mod diff between DA and kopesh with the lowered numbers is ~0.1 dmg, which changes nothing.
    Last edited by Ulf; 01-16-2010 at 12:07 AM.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    The graphs are all normalized (i.e. divided by) the khopesh damage at that enhancement damage, so it's all given in terms of % of khopesh. Without doing that normalization, yes all the lines would be straight, and for 100% fort, it's just the base damage plus the enhancement, such as this graph:

    http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a...ar/dvsk100.gif

    It's the dividing by the khopesh damage that produces the curved lines, because everything is expressed in terms of % of khopesh damage rather than a straight number. But I chose to express it this way because I figure that the relative strength of the weapons are easier to compare visually in this format (i.e. in terms of % of khopesh for that given amount of damage enhancement). Otherwise, the graph looks like this:

    http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a...ilar/wvsk0.gif

    which I felt wasn't very revealing because the lines are squished together. Dividing by khopesh damage is just a quick way to spread out the lines, and also give a more intuitive feel to the numbers; you can see what % damage you'll be doing relative to using a khopesh. If you're powergamer you'd probably look at the right part of the graph, due to the extra amount of buffing available to you; if you're a regular joe schmo you'd probably look at the middle to left part to see what you can expect without all the raid equipment.

    For the graphs, I assume that dwarven axe, scimitar/rapier, and longsword all have +2 racial damage enhancements, while the khopesh and heavy pick don't. This is why, against 100% fort, the longsword still beats the khopesh; otherwise yes the two would be identical (the longsword line would just stay at the 100% line).

    You're right that though the graphs assume the +1 crit range from kensai, but not the +4 to critical damage (before critical multipliers) that you'd get as a prereq. I didn't really want to complicate the graphs with too many variables (since, as you pointed out, this +4 will also stack with seeker items, which introduce another variable to account for, namely item selection). I'll update it with seeker values (I suppose I'll assume +10 total to critical damage before multiplier unless anyone recommends a better value) in a bit.
    ah yes, i apologise for that. now i see what you are doing here

    as to the variables, you can safely put in bloodstone or +6 seeker. if people are running epic stuff regularly, they should have epic bloodstone at some point of time (+8 seeker). as for weapon, we can set that to a min II variant with holy, acid burst, acid blast and another for acid, good burst, acid blast. mob type will need 2. 1 vs regular and another acid resistant. in all we should have like 6-10 graphs

    the key point that i would want to bring up is it is unfair to make a comparison between a khopesh and any other weapon if we want to bring in racial bonuses and leave out crit bonses. racial bonuses favor d-axe, scimitar, rapiers and longswords while crit bonses favor the khopesh
    If you want to know why...

  5. #45
    Founder xberto's Avatar
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    Real Dwarves have beards and swing Dwarven Axes.

  6. #46
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    Regarding changing the equations to add seeker damage (damage that's added to your critical hits before the cril multiplier).

    The equation was modified to:

    0.05 * 0 + noncrit chance * damage + crit chance * (0.05 + 0.95*monster fort) * damage + crit chance * (0.95 - 0.95*monster fort) * (damage + seeker) * critical multiplier

    0.05 * 0 = 0, but just to say that the formula accounts for a miss on a roll of 0
    noncrit chance = chance of noncritical roll, for example 0.7 (roll of 2 to 15) on khopesh
    damage = all the damage that's affected by crit, i.e. weapon dice, racial, weapon enhancement, str modifier, power attack, kensai, etc.
    crit chance = chance of critical roll, for example 0.25 (roll of 16 to 20) on khopesh
    monster fort = amount of fort monster has, from 0 to 1 (i.e. 0% to 100%)
    seeker = damage added on critical hits
    critical multiplier = critical multiplier of weapon, for example 3 on khopesh

    The (0.05 + 0.95*monster fort) term is the chance of failing the confirm as well as how fort affects the chance of crit, and the (0.95 - 0.95*monster fort) is the chance of confirming a crit roll, based on monster fort.

    Anyway, for seeker 10 (kensai for +4 and bloodstone for +6) and 0% fort, the graph looks like:

    http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/wvsk0s10.gif

    Khopesh is better than dwarven axe at +11 or higher, and heavy pick is better than dwarven axe at +37 or higher.

    If we now assume 50% fort, the graph becomes:

    http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a.../wvsk50s10.gif

    Khopesh is better than dwarven axe at +38 or higher.

    So with the +4 seeker damage from kensai and +6 seeker damage from bloodstone, dwarven axe, heavy pick, and scimitar all hang around the 92-94% of khopesh damage when you have around +30 to 40 damage enhancements. As usual though the dwarven axe is better suited for monsters with fort due to its higher base damage (and the racial enhancements), at least until the upper ranges.

    By the way, if you want to verify my numbers, the first ten rows for seeker 10 and monster fort 50% are:

    Dam Khopesh Daxe Scimitar Longsword Heavy Pick
    0 16.031 19.618 16.162 15.734 13.906
    1 17.219 20.710 17.278 16.803 15.069
    2 18.406 21.803 18.394 17.872 16.233
    3 19.594 22.895 19.511 18.941 17.397
    4 20.781 23.988 20.627 20.009 18.561
    5 21.969 25.080 21.743 21.078 19.724
    6 23.156 26.173 22.859 22.147 20.888
    7 24.344 27.265 23.976 23.216 22.052
    8 25.531 28.358 25.092 24.284 23.216
    9 26.719 29.450 26.208 25.353 24.379

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    Regarding changing the equations to add seeker damage (damage that's added to your critical hits before the cril multiplier).

    The equation was modified to:

    0.05 * 0 + noncrit chance * damage + crit chance * (0.05 + 0.95*monster fort) * damage + crit chance * (0.95 - 0.95*monster fort) * (damage + seeker) * critical multiplier

    0.05 * 0 = 0, but just to say that the formula accounts for a miss on a roll of 0
    noncrit chance = chance of noncritical roll, for example 0.7 (roll of 2 to 15) on khopesh
    damage = all the damage that's affected by crit, i.e. weapon dice, racial, weapon enhancement, str modifier, power attack, kensai, etc.
    crit chance = chance of critical roll, for example 0.25 (roll of 16 to 20) on khopesh
    monster fort = amount of fort monster has, from 0 to 1 (i.e. 0% to 100%)
    seeker = damage added on critical hits
    critical multiplier = critical multiplier of weapon, for example 3 on khopesh

    The (0.05 + 0.95*monster fort) term is the chance of failing the confirm as well as how fort affects the chance of crit, and the (0.95 - 0.95*monster fort) is the chance of confirming a crit roll, based on monster fort.

    Anyway, for seeker 10 (kensai for +4 and bloodstone for +6) and 0% fort, the graph looks like:

    http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/wvsk0s10.gif

    Khopesh is better than dwarven axe at +11 or higher, and heavy pick is better than dwarven axe at +37 or higher.

    If we now assume 50% fort, the graph becomes:

    http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a.../wvsk50s10.gif

    Khopesh is better than dwarven axe at +38 or higher.

    So with the +4 seeker damage from kensai and +6 seeker damage from bloodstone, dwarven axe, heavy pick, and scimitar all hang around the 92-94% of khopesh damage when you have around +30 to 40 damage enhancements. As usual though the dwarven axe is better suited for monsters with fort due to its higher base damage (and the racial enhancements), at least until the upper ranges.

    By the way, if you want to verify my numbers, the first ten rows for seeker 10 and monster fort 50% are:

    Dam Khopesh Daxe Scimitar Longsword Heavy Pick
    0 16.031 19.618 16.162 15.734 13.906
    1 17.219 20.710 17.278 16.803 15.069
    2 18.406 21.803 18.394 17.872 16.233
    3 19.594 22.895 19.511 18.941 17.397
    4 20.781 23.988 20.627 20.009 18.561
    5 21.969 25.080 21.743 21.078 19.724
    6 23.156 26.173 22.859 22.147 20.888
    7 24.344 27.265 23.976 23.216 22.052
    8 25.531 28.358 25.092 24.284 23.216
    9 26.719 29.450 26.208 25.353 24.379
    and as you shown, seeker increase the dps/decreases the break even point by quite a large factor. this is also what i'm trying to explain that if you just rely on base damage then the calculations are going to be skewed and biases. something that ulf just doesnt understand. well, i'm just going to wait to see what trash hes going to come up with
    If you want to know why...

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    and as you shown, seeker increase the dps/decreases the break even point by quite a large factor. this is also what i'm trying to explain that if you just rely on base damage then the calculations are going to be skewed and biases.
    Yeah including the seeker calculations changes the break-even points quite a bit; the original break-even point for khopesh vs dwarven axe for 0% fort and seeker 0 was around +25 damage enhancements, but once 0% fort and seeker 10 was included, it becomes +11. Dwarven axe damage in the "typical" range of +30 to 40 drops from 97.2% of khopesh to 93.5% of khopesh, or, equivalently, khopesh goes from a 3% advantage to a 7% advantage over the dwarven axe. Given this, I don't want to make predictions on how burst might affect the relative percentages (although intuitively they will favor the khopesh and heavy pick somewhat due to higher overall effective crit damage multipliers on those weapons), but that may take some time to do depending on my RL stuff =P

    On the other hand, a lot of the sensitivity of the break-even points is because we're all talking about weapon DPSes with a difference of within 10%. It's natural that small differences in the assumptions will cause significant changes in the relative rankings when the amounts are so close. For that matter, if you are concerned about this small difference in DPS, I would recommend turning down your graphic settings, since even an FPS of 20 instead of 30 has a measurable difference in your DPS due to attack speed differences. Every time I go into a quest and see my FPS go down to 5-10 especially with firewalls, I know that all the analysis and calculations didn't make much difference in how much damage I actually did.

    Regarding racial damage enhancements, yes it is somewhat unfair to the khopesh and heavy pick to include them for the dwarven axe, scimitar/rapier, and longsword. However, I included them because I assume that people use those weapons because they are of the appropriate race, i.e. the one that gets bonuses in those weapons. Although you would be spending 6 AP in them to get the damage enhancements (the other 6 AP is in increasing your attack, which you may choose whether or not to spend, so to compare properly you should only consider the 6 AP spent in damage as the khopesh has no equivalent for the attack), you'd also have to spend a feat to get the khopesh; as A-O mentioned in the dwarf forum thread about this topic, they are about the same worth depending on your build / class, i.e. more general considerations start coming into play such as whether you're feat starved or AP starved, etc. Put another way, it is as unfair to consider the racial damage enhancements (which take up 6 AP) as much as it is unfair to consider that you can use the khopesh without the -4 attack penalty (which you use up a feat to negate). Those are simply tradeoffs that occur when you are making the build and decide on the feats and enhancements.

    Quote Originally Posted by xberto View Post
    Real Dwarves have beards and swing Dwarven Axes.
    Including the female ones.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    Regarding racial damage enhancements, yes it is somewhat unfair to the khopesh and heavy pick to include them for the dwarven axe, scimitar/rapier, and longsword. However, I included them because I assume that people use those weapons because they are of the appropriate race, i.e. the one that gets bonuses in those weapons. Although you would be spending 6 AP in them to get the damage enhancements (the other 6 AP is in increasing your attack, which you may choose whether or not to spend, so to compare properly you should only consider the 6 AP spent in damage as the khopesh has no equivalent for the attack), you'd also have to spend a feat to get the khopesh; as A-O mentioned in the dwarf forum thread about this topic, they are about the same worth depending on your build / class, i.e. more general considerations start coming into play such as whether you're feat starved or AP starved, etc. Put another way, it is as unfair to consider the racial damage enhancements (which take up 6 AP) as much as it is unfair to consider that you can use the khopesh without the -4 attack penalty (which you use up a feat to negate). Those are simply tradeoffs that occur when you are making the build and decide on the feats and enhancements.
    which is why i do not recommend khopeshes if there are racial preferences. the feat can be important
    If you want to know why...

  10. #50
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    RAWR~!
    Light Hammers ftw!
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  11. #51
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    My question to Ulf is still simple your clearly state that you are using 12 ap for the DA as i read, and list all the wonderfull enhancement a dwarf get on top of that, tactical ones etc. But do you have more ap than the rest of us? because last time i checked my kensai i couldnt get all i wanted

    So please list what enhancements you see a dwarf taking inkluding the 12 ap to dwarven axe, else you are not making a fair comparison. If this was a feat starved class i would agree that the feat saved could be spend well else where, but on a fighter with a dps build i dont think using one feat to increase your dps is that bad.

    Also you keep saying that including buffs, raid gear etc is unfair, but yet you still use greensteel dwarven axes for your calculations, is only the raid gear you select ok for the calculation? should the discussion about dps comparionson not be done based on expected end game dps, but how your dps is while you get there?

    The link i posted you are correct is not a 100% fair comparison sorry for not making that clear. But everything you take as Kensei. Power surge, weapon spec, greater weapon spec, the weapon spec enhancements etc etc helps rapier, scimater, heavy pick and khopesh more than it does dwarven axe.

    An easy way to compare weapon as someone else pointed out is their crit power, the more +dam you have the more this gets important. Khopesh has 19-20*3= power 4, rapier, scimi and heavy pick are power 3, and dwarven axe is power 2. So assuming roll 20 times and get the number from 1-20 then this is how many times you get that +dam extra. (double the power to include imp crit but thats irrelevant).

    So as some of the posted graphs show its only a question about how +dam you have if it can offset the less base damage. As for hitting the mobs in epic, i find it funny that we are not to talk about raid gear fully buffed comparions, how do you run your epics?, with **** gear and only half buffed? :P I personaly do not expect my pure dps build to be the one with agro all the time, so often i would have that flanking boost to hit aswell

    If this was me though i would go heavy pick, higher crit numbers = more fun hehe, and they look way cooler than pesh and DA

  12. #52
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    I should be fair in my comparison of crit power as its different for an kensai 3. Here weapons would rank like this

    Khopesh: power 10
    Heavy pick: power 9
    Rapier/scimi: power 7
    Dwarven axe: power 6

    If we like you actaully consider non raid gear and then i would say also no greensteel weapons this means that as a dwarven fighter with +5 weapons, +6str items, etc you should do more damage with a heavy pick than a dwarven axe

    This as mentioned posted and shown in graphs ofcourse depends on your +dam. But this should be pretty high as a pure fighter. Str (non raid gear) would be something like 18 +5levels +2tome +3ench +6item +8surge +2rage = 44
    So you have +17dam +4feats +4ench +4more to critdam +seeker +song +gh or what ever buffs means you never run with less than +30dam and most of the time its 40 and more.

    So if we make a simple calculation on 20 hits with these asumings +2 from enhancements and no wf pa enhancements. we get this:
    Scimi/rapier 3,5base 2.ench +40dam = 45,5 20 attacks (7crits*2)= 864.5 + 318,5 = 1183
    DA 6.5base 2.ench +40dam = 48.5 20 attacks (3crits*3)= 921,5 + 291 = 1212,5
    Heavy pick 3,5base 0.ench +40dam = 43,5 20 attacks (3crits*4)= 826,5 + 391,5 = 1218
    Pesh 4,5base 0.ench +40dam = 44.5 20 attacks (5crits*3)= 845.5 + 445 = 1290,5

    This means that vs non heavy fort and with non raid weapons a dwarv could do more dps buffed with a heavy pick and a pesh

    It also means that on non fighter, elf with scimitar and drow with rapiers are potentialy better dps than a dwarf with da, on a kensai you need a really high bonus to damage to offset the low base damage.

    If you do the math with greensteel its obvious that you need even higher bonus to damage to catch up on the higher base damage the dwarven axe has on the other hand vs trash mobs weapons like epic death have even higher crit power.

    Also base damage doesnt look to change, but now you can get 6str from psionic, yogo pots etc etc, and the constant addition of things that increase the damage bonus per hit before crit multiplier will help rapier, scimitar, heavy pick and especially khopesh more than the dwarven axe.

    Ofcourse this is all vs non heavey fort, but then again vs heavy fort its handwraps that rules :P

    Oh and one last thing you dont like the barb comparison because its *6 crit or what ever. Do remember that barb crit only works on 19 and 20, so khopesh and warven axe gets the exact same increase in damage, as do anyother weapon in the game for that matter. Feel free to show me math that i am wrong. Its gives 3 crit multi on 19 and 20 no matter the weapon and privious multi, how can that be better on some than others? :P
    So while a kensai gets 4feats, 4ench and 4on crits from enhancements all in favor of khopesh, picks etc please show what a barb gets that favors khopesh so much?
    Last edited by Erdams; 01-16-2010 at 07:33 AM. Reason: Forgot note about barb

  13. #53
    Community Member Ulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erdams View Post
    My question to Ulf is still simple your clearly state that you are using 12 ap for the DA as i read, and list all the wonderfull enhancement a dwarf get on top of that, tactical ones etc. But do you have more ap than the rest of us? because last time i checked my kensai i couldnt get all i wanted.
    No one gets to take all the enhancements they want, if turbine gave more points, everyone would have enhancements they would love to add.

    So please list what enhancements you see a dwarf taking inkluding the 12 ap to dwarven axe, else you are not making a fair comparison. If this was a feat starved class i would agree that the feat saved could be spend well else where, but on a fighter with a dps build i dont think using one feat to increase your dps is that bad.
    You can easily take all kensai str enhancements and ftr str and dwf con and all dwf axe enhancements with points left over. It is simple fact. How I or anyone else individually spends them is their choice and will fit their build. You are trying to make it appear that it is not possible to take the enhancements, which is not true. While in the same breath you try and say feat means nothing. WF can spend AP on power attac enhancements, but by your logic thats a waste.

    Also you keep saying that including buffs, raid gear etc is unfair, but yet you still use greensteel dwarven axes for your calculations, is only the raid gear you select ok for the calculation? should the discussion about dps comparionson not be done based on expected end game dps, but how your dps is while you get there?
    I use same buffs presented by others, so I also use greensteel as others. I guess you would prefer if used max buffs but nongreensteel so as to artificually shift numbers to kopesh. I mean you want to have all the extra damage mods added in except leave out the increase in base damage of the actual weapon. Thats sounds fair.

    The link i posted you are correct is not a 100% fair comparison sorry for not making that clear. But everything you take as Kensei. Power surge, weapon spec, greater weapon spec, the weapon spec enhancements etc etc helps rapier, scimater, heavy pick and khopesh more than it does dwarven axe.
    Tha link you posted is x6 crit multiplier and 10%v20% crit range, both of those factors hugely favor kopesh and are not the numbers for a kensai. Not to mention the extra damage mods. Also everything you take as kensai does not favor other weapons. Take crit range, its a 50% increase in DA and Hvy pick crits, but its a 25% increase in kopesh crits. Again, you only mention things that favor kopesh and try to make it appear that s the whole story.

    An easy way to compare weapon as someone else pointed out is their crit power, the more +dam you have the more this gets important. Khopesh has 19-20*3= power 4, rapier, scimi and heavy pick are power 3, and dwarven axe is power 2. So assuming roll 20 times and get the number from 1-20 then this is how many times you get that +dam extra. (double the power to include imp crit but thats irrelevant).

    So as some of the posted graphs show its only a question about how +dam you have if it can offset the less base damage. As for hitting the mobs in epic, i find it funny that we are not to talk about raid gear fully buffed comparions, how do you run your epics?, with **** gear and only half buffed? :P I personaly do not expect my pure dps build to be the one with agro all the time, so often i would have that flanking boost to hit aswell

    If this was me though i would go heavy pick, higher crit numbers = more fun hehe, and they look way cooler than pesh and DA

    I should be fair in my comparison of crit power as its different for an kensai 3. Here weapons would rank like this

    Khopesh: power 10
    Heavy pick: power 9
    Rapier/scimi: power 7
    Dwarven axe: power 6
    No to be fair you shold also add the base damage. 10 kopesh hits give 10d10 weap damage but 6 DA hits give 12d8+12. Again, you leave out those inconvient details. Guess what, they matter.

    If we like you actaully consider non raid gear and then i would say also no greensteel weapons this means that as a dwarven fighter with +5 weapons, +6str items, etc you should do more damage with a heavy pick than a dwarven axe

    This as mentioned posted and shown in graphs ofcourse depends on your +dam. But this should be pretty high as a pure fighter. Str (non raid gear) would be something like 18 +5levels +2tome +3ench +6item +8surge +2rage = 44
    So you have +17dam +4feats +4ench +4more to critdam +seeker +song +gh or what ever buffs means you never run with less than +30dam and most of the time its 40 and more.
    Once again you are falsely presenting the numbers, like crit dam and seeker only apply on crit, gh does not and a dam mod, what +4 from feats (3 spec feats +?). Your 40 and more is a lie. You numbers should be +17dam +3feats +4ench+9 song(max bard buff)=33(assuming you always have a bard)

    So if we make a simple calculation on 20 hits with these asumings +2 from enhancements and no wf pa enhancements. we get this:
    Scimi/rapier 3,5base 2.ench +40dam = 45,5 20 attacks (7crits*2)= 864.5 + 318,5 = 1183
    DA 6.5base 2.ench +40dam = 48.5 20 attacks (3crits*3)= 921,5 + 291 = 1212,5
    Heavy pick 3,5base 0.ench +40dam = 43,5 20 attacks (3crits*4)= 826,5 + 391,5 = 1218
    Pesh 4,5base 0.ench +40dam = 44.5 20 attacks (5crits*3)= 845.5 + 445 = 1290,5

    This means that vs non heavy fort and with non raid weapons a dwarv could do more dps buffed with a heavy pick and a pesh
    No that means you used wrong dam mods and used no greensteel, which means totally unrealistic numbers. I used same mods for everyone, no preference given, thats a fair comparison.

    It also means that on non fighter, elf with scimitar and drow with rapiers are potentialy better dps than a dwarf with da, on a kensai you need a really high bonus to damage to offset the low base damage.
    No it doesn't. Even assuming no greensteel, your numbers are still giving +8 power surge and +4 enh, how does a non kensai get those bonuses? Again, you want to mix and match numbers that don't even apply, you are going out of your way to present false data.

    If you do the math with greensteel its obvious that you need even higher bonus to damage to catch up on the higher base damage the dwarven axe has on the other hand vs trash mobs weapons like epic death have even higher crit power.

    Also base damage doesnt look to change, but now you can get 6str from psionic, yogo pots etc etc, and the constant addition of things that increase the damage bonus per hit before crit multiplier will help rapier, scimitar, heavy pick and especially khopesh more than the dwarven axe.

    Ofcourse this is all vs non heavey fort, but then again vs heavy fort its handwraps that rules :P

    Oh and one last thing you dont like the barb comparison because its *6 crit or what ever. Do remember that barb crit only works on 19 and 20, so khopesh and warven axe gets the exact same increase in damage, as do anyother weapon in the game for that matter. Feel free to show me math that i am wrong. Its gives 3 crit multi on 19 and 20 no matter the weapon and privious multi, how can that be better on some than others? :P
    So while a kensai gets 4feats, 4ench and 4on crits from enhancements all in favor of khopesh, picks etc please show what a barb gets that favors khopesh so much?
    At least attempt to appear impartial next time

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    and as you shown, seeker increase the dps/decreases the break even point by quite a large factor. this is also what i'm trying to explain that if you just rely on base damage then the calculations are going to be skewed and biases. something that ulf just doesnt understand. well, i'm just going to wait to see what trash hes going to come up with
    Yes the fact that you admitted you have misses on high end content even when max buffed with best gear or that mobs actually have fort is me coming up with trash. I guess thats why you choose to ignore it. Kinda like you ignoring that you changed every other weapon number but kopesh. And me saying, ignoring to hit and fort gives kopesh edge, repeatedly, is ignoring dam mods.

    What is so hard about an impartial, civil discussion of facts to answer the OPs question? Is it that important to you that kopesh has to be uberz leet weapon that you will ignore facts?

    DA and kopesh are about the same at end game, it will depend on group, gear, and situation. The low fort low to hit with high dmg mods favors kopesh, add mob fort or mob AC or less than perfect gear/buffs and it favors DA.

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    Ulf are you misunderstanding what i write to avoid being proved wrong?

    If you dont list enhancements you are not showing him what he is missing to get close to khopesh damage with a dwarven axe. If you are not taking full haste boosts etc, you have will have even less damage and that should be calculated in as well. If you take all the feats affecting dps to the max, i am pretty sure you will have no bonus to any tactical feat, no extra hp or anything, so is that what you are suggesting?

    You keep talking % with the barb but its simple math, barb get 3 higher crit multiplier on 19 and 20 no matter the weapon, that means 6 times more dam assuming you roll all the numbers from 1 to 20 and confirm crit. That is the same amount of damage no matter if its a kama or a khopesh, so there is no way you can claim that it is better for one weapon than another. It is the same extra damage you get. Please show math and calculation that where this gives can make a DA cause more damange than khopesh, or a kama for that matter.

    The reason i said no greensteel (as i explained allready) is you refuse to count bard song, seeker items, fully madstone rage and raid gear setup. Claiming that you cant be sure to have all this, all i ask why can we only be sure to have the raid items that favor the dwarven axe and not the other ones?

    I will be happy to show math that proves a khopesh is way ahead assuming that you have the best gear setup and fully buffed, but you keep saying we cant base it on this.

    As for tohit, why are you not facturing in, sunder, improved sunder, destruction, improved destruction, enfeebling and rogue drain etc etc etc.

    I am not forgetting to mention that DA has higher base damage i clear states as the graphs posted shown, it depends on your bonus to damage when the base damage becomes less relevant. The higher the bonus to damage the more important is the weapons crit power. I also stated its hard to get a high enough bonus to damage for the rapiers and scimitars to be better on a kensai, but for heavy pick and khopesh its clearly not the case.

    As for bonus to damage, the normal bonus is 2 higher for the dwarven axe, and apart from that what it is doesnt matter comparing the weapons, its the damage bonus that is counted for criticals thats is interesting and that is what i listed.

    If we do assume raid gear, as i believe we should and you didnt like when i didnt here is the calculations as i see them

    base damage 4.5+20str+8song+4weapon spec+ greater weapon spec 2 kensai weap spec +4more on crits from kensai weapon spec +2 form fighter weapon ench +6seeker might be forgetting something but this i 46 not counting base damage and its over 50 with. So dont believe i am lying to prove a point, atleast not on purpose

    So please show me where my math is wrong, and stop evading listing your enhancements because the ones you say i can get is far from the only ones all my fighters have

    And yes i loose a feat on khopesh but please explain what i cant get, because on a pure figther i have enough to take the important ones, and i would be interested in knowing what i loose that 12 ap cant easily make up for

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    A extra note to the barb dps comparison you seem ok with the fact that khopesh is better dps on a barb, but claim they have an unfair advantage. Feel free to show math that shows this

    As i see it

    Barb frenzy 3 adds 3 to crit multiplier on a 19 and 20. This gives any weapon 6 higher crit power. So the dwarv has a base damage (considering greensteel) 2d8 and +2 from ench, this is 11 average, the khopesh has a average og 5.5. So the dwarven axe gains 66dam on 20 swing from this, while the khopesh gains 33. So clearly the dwarven axe gains more from this.

    They get greater viscious damage, but this is the same no matter the weapon and does nothing. They get a bonus for thf splash effects and thats about it as i see it.

    They do get more str from raging, but with power surge you get 8str as a ftr too so at its at best +6 from str as a barb. While on a ftr from feats alont you get +4, add enhancements +4non crit and +4crit it is even more.

    So maybe i am slow, not that smart or what ever, but please explain it in greater detail why you see a barb having so much greater benefit of a khopesh than a ftr does, that i am totally wrong to use that comparison

    So i still dont understand you math tbh.
    Last edited by Erdams; 01-16-2010 at 01:51 PM. Reason: fixed barb str bonus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erdams View Post
    Also you keep saying that including buffs, raid gear etc is unfair, but yet you still use greensteel dwarven axes for your calculations, is only the raid gear you select ok for the calculation? should the discussion about dps comparionson not be done based on expected end game dps, but how your dps is while you get there?
    As a side note my calculations assume green steel because presumably it's one of the first high-level equipment that you'll get on your way to level 20 and being decked out. You may not have a full one but at least a blank; if from nothing else, they can be bought from the auction house. On Orien, a green steel blank costs several million; while this is no doubt a substantial investment for an up-and-coming, it's a drop in the bucket compared with other high-level equipment like the bloodstone, which as of this writing goes for 20 million. (Or, at least, someone is hoping that a sucker will pay 20 million for it, whichever is your take on auction house prices.) Part of the reason why I gave data in terms of a graph based on your +damage enhancements (as the x-axis) is that I reduce the other high-level equipment you get to moving where you are toward the right, so you can see how the different weapons trend as you character becomes more and more decked out (i.e. as you move further toward the right). So (hopefully) it's a valid comparison for different amounts of available equipment as you move into the higher levels. Also consider that the graphs assume you have the kensai +1 to your crit range, which means that you're already level 18 or higher. Hopefully by this time you'll have done a few raids to get the green steel blanks, or saved up enough plat to buy them.

    If you consider non-green steel, then dwarven axes suffer since their base damage is similar to that of the other weapons, and so the base damage advantage is largely negated. But in converting to green steel, most weapons receive (essentially) a +1 to their base damage, whereas dwarven axe receives +3.5 in going from 1d10 (avg 5.5) to 2d8 (avg 9). The extra +2.5 damage that other weapons have to overcome is a reason why dwarven axes will fare better when your character is relatively underequipped or when monsters have fort. Similarly, as you assume better equipment and buffs, and less monster fort, other weapons become better as they overcome this base damage advantage through getting more out of crit.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erdams View Post
    Ulf are you misunderstanding what i write to avoid being proved wrong?
    No, you are posting things that are wrong. I do not know if you are doing it intentionally or not. I assume its honest mistakes, they happen.

    If you dont list enhancements you are not showing him what he is missing to get close to khopesh damage with a dwarven axe. If you are not taking full haste boosts etc, you have will have even less damage and that should be calculated in as well. If you take all the feats effecting dps to the max, i am pretty sure you will have no bonus to any tactical feat, no extra hp or anything, so is that what you are suggesting?
    Again, you CAN take all the dps enhancements, will you lose some tactics enhancements, sure. Haste boost doesn't metter in the comparison, because both the WF kopesh and the dwarf DA will either have them or not, in a fair comparison. Both can take them, both can take thier racoal enhancements PA or DA axe attack & damage. And as to feats, how would that effect the dwarf DA more than the WF kopesh, the dwarf DA has one more feat than the WF kopesh.

    You keep talking % with the barb but its simple math, barb get 3 higher crit multiplier on 19 and 20 no matter the weapon, that means 6 times more dam assuming you roll all the numbers from 1 to 20 and confirm crit. That is the same amount of damage no matter if its a kama or a khopesh, so there is no way you can claim that it is better for one weapon than another. It is the same extra damage you get. Please show math and calculation that where this gives can make a DA cause more damange than khopesh, or a kama for that matter.
    The barb will crit less often than ftr with a higher multiplier. If you do not understand that I can't help you there. Reguardless if you understand or not. The topic is specifically about TWF kensai, why compare something else? I can't make it anu clearer than that.

    The reason i said no greensteel (as i explained allready) is you refuse to count bard song, seeker items, fully madstone rage and raid gear setup. Claiming that you cant be sure to have all this, all i ask why can we only be sure to have the raid items that favor the dwarven axe and not the other ones?
    I have included bard buffs and rage and others. I clearly said that, while pointing out that having every single possible buff all the time is not likely. The point being, even with max buffs the kopesh doesn't always win, its that simple.

    I will be happy to show math that proves a khopesh is way ahead assuming that you have the best gear setup and fully buffed, but you keep saying we cant base it on this.
    I never said any such thing and you have been putting those buffs/gear in all along. Your only numbers posted for barb have madstone, bard and cleric buffs, seeker, FB enhancements, etc... included but ignore AC.

    As for tohit, why are you not facturing in, sunder, improved sunder, destruction, improved destruction, enfeebling and rogue drain etc etc etc.
    Because if you want to put in destruction or enfeebling or things of the like you are changing the weapon, which means changing the mods or including other players that would be using weapons less than optimal dps. Not to mention those effects change to hit for both kopesh and DA user, the DA will still be hitting +5 higher AC mobs. Also, I don't include stunning blows or stat damagers (which massively favor DA, auto crits means kopesh is way behind DA and Hvy pick). You appear to want to include only the things that favor kopesh and pretend that the things that favor DA don't exist.

    I am not forgetting to mention that DA has higher base damage i clear states as the graphs posted shown, it depends on your bonus to damage when the base damage becomes less relevant. The higher the bonus to damage the more important is the weapons crit power. I also stated its hard to get a high enough bonus to damage for the rapiers and scimitars to be better on a kensai, but for heavy pick and khopesh its clearly not the case.
    No you listed "weapon crit power" and ignored weapon damage. You insinuated that DA was worse than Hvy pick and barley even with scimitar, which is complete BS.

    As for bonus to damage, the normal bonus is 2 higher for the dwarven axe, and apart from that what it is doesnt matter comparing the weapons, its the damage bonus that is counted for criticals thats is interesting and that is what i listed.
    No kopesh 1d10, DA 2d8+2 or 5.5 point difference per non-crit more on a crit.

    If we do assume raid gear, as i believe we should and you didnt like when i didnt here is the calculations as i see them

    base damage 4.5+20str+8song+4weapon spec+ greater weapon spec 2 kensai weap spec +4more on crits from kensai weapon spec +2 form fighter weapon ench +6seeker might be forgetting something but this i 46 not counting base damage and its over 50 with. So dont believe i am lying to prove a point, atleast not on purpose
    Again, 3 spec from feats not 4, seeker doesn't count for non-crit
    20(str50)+8(bard)+3(spec feats)+4(ken enh)+2(ftr enh)=37
    on crit only
    +4(ken enh)+0to10(seeker)


    So please show me where my math is wrong, and stop evading listing your enhancements because the ones you say i can get is far from the only ones all my fighters have
    I have again shown where your math is wrong. I have told you that you can take all the dps enhancements (all kensai, all ftr spec, capstone, haste, DA). What does it metter what enhancement my chars take, I may not take any dps enhancements and go all tactics or toughness or AC enhancements or giant enhancements, etc... All that matters is that a dwarf can, just like a WF can take all dps enhancements. When you compare, you assume that if one goes dps, so does the other.

    And yes i loose a feat on khopesh but please explain what i cant get, because on a pure figther i have enough to take the important ones, and i would be interested in knowing what i loose that 12 ap cant easily make up for
    You can't get another feat, what you choose I don't know, depends on what your other feat choices are. You bring up 12ap for dwarf but I guess the WF PA enhancements are free, must be nice. Every WF I've made it cost me 6AP
    You say I dont include raid and party buffs, but I gave +40 mod, where you list buffs that only give 37 (hint your missing a couple). I show even with those mods kopesh is not the uber leet super weap of all time you seem to think it is. I give a fair comparison, same buffs for both sides, I compare ftr kensai TWF. I acknoweledge that kopesh wins when no mob AC or mob fort and max gear/buffs. That DA can actually perform better at high end content or when not having max gear/buffs is not the end of the world for kopesh users. As I have repeatedly said, they are both viable weapons that are comparable. DA wins in some situations, kopesh wins in some situations. Why must you continually try to insist that kopesh wins all the time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    snip
    me in tower of despair

    If you want to know why...

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    I have not ones said that khopesh wins all the time. On heavy fort mobs dwarven axe wins all the time. I am not saying khopesh is the end all be all weapon, i said pick what you think is cool.

    But on average with the mobs in game the khopesh is better damage, i am not the only one saying that, i think you are the only claiming there this is a myth and that dwarven axe is just as good.

    You keep saying you get a feat, but as a pure fighter you have 18 feats, 17 if you pick khopesh i cant see what feat i would rather have than 12 ap, what critical feat am i missing? you couldnt think of one so why is it so important?. If it was a paladin, or another class sure 1 feat hurts on a pure fighter i dont see the issue.

    If you are assuming 12ap for dwarven axes but dont have it your self or expect anyone else to take it, because they will loose hp, dc etc from the 12 enhancement points from it why should we use this as a reasaon to pick da? In my arguments or damage bonus lists i havent added wf pa ench so if you dont take them, they are very free. but you might have a different ddo client but i have to pick ench to pay for them. My point is that even without wf pa the khopesh is still better dps, if you add that it is even more.

    If i am not understading the barb thing please explain it to me, please do explain how it helps a khopesh more than a dwarven axe, if i am stating something that is false correct me - i am not here to lie. But you are aware that the extra crit multiplier only works on 19 and 20, so a khopesh is not 17-20*6 but 17-18*4 and 19-20*6 and because of this it helps the dwarven axe with higher base damage more than the khopesh. If i am wrong please show me where i would like to know tbh

    As for changing weapons i never change weapon for destruction it comes for free from a bp, or someone else has it. the dex drain rogue gives, and i dont swap weapons to do sunder, trip and stunning. So no there is no weapon swapping

    You dont find it likely to have every single buff, but still want to consider the bonus from enhancements you wouldnt take? now that is help full advice. You could actually have all those buffs, when the enhancements you list i dont know any fighters spending 12 ap on. most spend 6 on +2 dam as most wf spend 6 on +3dam and -3to hit. But to make the things more general i didnt include the wf ench. Also if you are just using greensteel and not dual shard, what about DR i would rather use a +5 metalline of pure good,, because all your nice base damage would get eaten by the DR in a sec, so if you assume no dual shards you should consider that too

    I clearly state that for my calculations i only consider the bonus for crits as the base damage will have the same effect on both weapons. You choose to correct me about base damage being 5.5 higher on dwarven axe i have posted the exact same in my post how am i wrong when i have posted the same numbers?. I posted one is 11 and the other 5.5, but i do know how to subtract if you think thats the case.

    I have even further reason to think its your ddo client thats bugged as you get +3 damage from the weapon spec, when all fighters i know get +4 from these feats. Also i am very aware that the +4 from kensei ench and seeker is only for criticals, but i also stated this - so i dont see your point. But thanks for showing my calculation again that shows that you can easily get high enough damage bonus for the khopesh to be better.

    To do the simple math a dwarven axe does 5.5 more base dam, on 20 rolls that is 19*5.5 + crit power 6 * 5.5 = 137.5 So a khopesh has to have enough damage to regain that from the extra crits, if you use khopesh then its 137.5/4 = 35 because its crit power is 4 higher. As shown achieving this damage before multiplier is rather easy on a pure kensai, even more so on a wf with the pa enhancements.

    All i am saying if you ask what is the best dps, then overall its the khopesh because vs most mobs its best, there are a few cases where its not the cases but in total you will do more damage with it. Are their alternatives sure, dwarven axe is a fine one, so is heavy pick for that matter or rapier or scimitar as drow or elf.

    But you are stating things that i dont believe to be true, so please explain them like i asked. You based your argument of picking dwarven axe on the +2 to hit and damage, but dont care to explain what enhancements he will be missing if he takes that. On the other hand you hold it against the khopesh that it cost a feat and you get lower to hit, but this a pure fighter and you fail to list the feat you take and what feat you cant take that is so important. We (not just me) have listed alot of nice enhancemenst you cant take if you spend 12points on the axe, but you havent done the same with the feat. So i am trying to say that your comparison is biased, as you dont list the negatives from burning 12 ap. Also it is only in epic content he cant hit with wf pa on a 2 and higher, but dont expect him have raid gear or dual shards, this dont make sense why would he grind epic quests then? Again you a turning it to fit your case.

    So please dont put words into my mouth saying the khopesh always wins, i simply try to explain that if he wants max dps then its the khopesh, sure dwarven axe is better vs heavy fort. But i could argue that handwraps are the best weapon ingame vs heavy fort, but does it make it better allround dps, ofcourse not.

    I do like to learn new things, get smarter and be corrected if i am spreading lies, so please explain the simple questions i asked, so i can understand where i am wrong about these things. This also goes for the barb question, regardless of this is the relevant thread would like to understand if i am wrong, so please explain. Thanks
    Last edited by Erdams; 01-16-2010 at 07:31 PM.

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