How much of a dumb-ass do you have to be...

[Tin_Dragon]

It is the shroud. Yu can have 11 players that are brand new. As long as you have 1 gamer that knows what is going on, there should be no problem.

IF, and I mean a big IF, you can find 11 non morons at the same time. Even 1 moron who refuses to listen the 1 player leading it, can eff it up in a hurry in part 2-3-4 or 5.

Odds are, if your that 1 person who 'knows' you will be yelled/cried/griefed @ by at least 1 n00b calling you an elitist know it all.

Not worth the headache.

[Bunker]

IF, and I mean a big IF, you can find 11 non morons at the same time. Even 1 moron who refuses to listen the 1 player leading it, can eff it up in a hurry in part 2-3-4 or 5.

Odds are, if your that 1 person who 'knows' you will be yelled/cried/griefed @ by at least 1 n00b calling you an elitist know it all.

Not worth the headache.

I have to respectfully disagree. On the one hand, if you form a group expecting that any newer player listening to your instructions will call you a "elitist know it all", then you might be right.

But if you form a group, expecting to enjoy the quest, have a bit of fun, and get a completion, I don't see why 11 new players will a tiny bit of direction can't get it done.

The Shroud is what, a level 17 quest? So they had 1-16 level quests to prepare themselves for the Shroud. By now they understand the mechanics of the game, the ability of thier characters, and probably have grouped a few times on thier way to being flagged for the Shroud.

One thing is true. If you don't want to be a good party leader, you won't be. The lfms that say, "no noobs", "experience only" or "must know quest". There are plenty of reasons a party leader will have an lfm like that. One reason is that they simply do not enjoy being a party leader. They dont' want to have to explain the quest, they want to simply get in there, get'r'done, and then do it all over again with another character.

So why do they form groups in the first place? They don't want to sit around waiting for the lfm for that quest. Those leaders have enough initiative to form the group, but when it comes to being inside the quest, they just want to be the players that does his/her part and that is it. Part of thier enjoyment in gaming is not having to do all that extra stuff. Just simply playing thier character is fun for them. And I get that.

I will say that if you enjoy teaching, helping, explaining quests. It really isn't all that tough. The not so shocking thing is, when explaining a quest to new players, if you talk to them like adults, more times then not, they will respond like adults. Talk to them like a donkey, and you might just get turd all over the quest.

[Krag]

One thing is true. If you don't want to be a good party leader, you won't be. The lfms that say, "no noobs", "experience only" or "must know quest". There are plenty of reasons a party leader will have an lfm like that. One reason is that they simply do not enjoy being a party leader. They dont' want to have to explain the quest, they want to simply get in there, get'r'done, and then do it all over again with another character.

You have listed only one out of many possible reasons. The others could be
- Not being able to use mic.
- No burning desire to carry ill-equipped (no portal-, harrybeaters) through quest
- No joy in wasting resourses (time, pots or both)
- etc.

[Bunker]

You have listed only one out of many possible reasons. The others could be
- Not being able to use mic.
- No burning desire to carry ill-equipped (no portal-, harrybeaters) through quest
- No joy in wasting resourses (time, pots or both)
- etc.

Mic's aren't required.
Anyone with a +5 Holy weapon had a portal/harry beater
wasting time is not an issue, we are playing a computer game you know
ect

[Krag]

Mic's aren't required.
Anyone with a +5 Holy weapon had a portal/harry beater
wasting time is not an issue, we are playing a computer game you know
ect

Just as the 5-th bag is not required it's a pain not to have one.
I've heard about people beating Harry with Muckbanes and Silver Flame clubs. That does not justifies using poor weapons in a casual Shroud run.
For me more time == less fun.

[Aseph]

If you sent like three tells to the leader I think that was the raid me and my bud were running...

p.s pally is nono DPS silly man

[Bunker]

Just as the 5-th bag is not required it's a pain not to have one.
I've heard about people beating Harry with Muckbanes and Silver Flame clubs. That does not justifies using poor weapons in a casual Shroud run.
For me more time == less fun.

I didnt' say +5 holy weapons is the end all to be all. Of course that is not true. And you said it perfectly. To you, slow is un-fun. The whole idea is to have fun.

I dig faster shrouds like the next person. A run that takes 10 more minutes now and again won't kill though. It is shocking to see so many players stress over something as silly as that.

Some players/leaders would rather wait 15 minutes to fill just so they can save 10 minutes inside the quest. Any math majors out there want to tell uswhat is wrong with that statement?

[Lleren]

I would rather take a undergeared, underlevel, not able to contribute much guildy, then a random pugger. Any game, any raid.

However when going on a pick up raid, any restrictions placed to filter the folks joining are fine with me, or I would not try and join. Leaders option.

15 minutes longer to form and be more likely to suceed is fine with me. Once Update 3 goes live some of those pick up raids will have link me your X as a restriction. I'm fine with that. I'm also new, and likely won't have X for a while. I can still raid in other pugs and guildrun stuff.

[AkromaAoW]

I have to respectfully disagree. On the one hand, if you form a group expecting that any newer player listening to your instructions will call you a "elitist know it all", then you might be right.

But if you form a group, expecting to enjoy the quest, have a bit of fun, and get a completion, I don't see why 11 new players will a tiny bit of direction can't get it done.

The Shroud is what, a level 17 quest? So they had 1-16 level quests to prepare themselves for the Shroud. By now they understand the mechanics of the game, the ability of thier characters, and probably have grouped a few times on thier way to being flagged for the Shroud.

One thing is true. If you don't want to be a good party leader, you won't be. The lfms that say, "no noobs", "experience only" or "must know quest". There are plenty of reasons a party leader will have an lfm like that. One reason is that they simply do not enjoy being a party leader. They dont' want to have to explain the quest, they want to simply get in there, get'r'done, and then do it all over again with another character.

So why do they form groups in the first place? They don't want to sit around waiting for the lfm for that quest. Those leaders have enough initiative to form the group, but when it comes to being inside the quest, they just want to be the players that does his/her part and that is it. Part of thier enjoyment in gaming is not having to do all that extra stuff. Just simply playing thier character is fun for them. And I get that.

I will say that if you enjoy teaching, helping, explaining quests. It really isn't all that tough. The not so shocking thing is, when explaining a quest to new players, if you talk to them like adults, more times then not, they will respond like adults. Talk to them like a donkey, and you might just get turd all over the quest.

and

/cheer

and

/bow

[Ministry]

... The lfms that say, "no noobs", "experience only" or "must know quest". There are plenty of reasons a party leader will have an lfm like that. One reason is that they simply do not enjoy being a party leader. They dont' want to have to explain the quest, they want to simply get in there, get'r'done, and then do it all over again with another character.

...

Only one thing irks me more than those LFM's... that's the ******s that try to bully players who don't know the game well, don't have the "requisite" equipment and / or don't know the quest listed, but would like to try it.

When I see the LFM's that you have listed... I avoid them like the plague, even before I took my extended break and knew most of the quests and raids quite well.

Seriously, people can say what they want about me or other people in the game like my old mates in Legion, but I've NEVER posted an LFM like that and I've NEVER seen a Legion raid posted with those comments. I've never seen any of the other top guilds in the game post like that either and they know who they are and why they don't have to.

Why?

Because it really doesn't take much to give out a few basic instructions and because we (who don't post like that) aren't afraid of bringing on people who may not be "perfect".

A good leader, a top guild, etc... can drag anyone through to completion on pretty much anything.

I rarely see any top players post LFM's like what you have listed. It's usually players that aren't all that great and / or are unknown and / or fearful and / or lazy players.

Your logic is sound with regard to sometimes we want to do a quest and don't want to lead for various reasons, so we form a team to get er done. In those cases, I form the team and say something along the lines of this as people join... "I want to get this thing done, but don't feel like leading... do you know the quest well enough to lead or follow without instructions? If not, this might not be the run for ya, or I post, "please know quest, because I'm too lazy to lead it".



Maybe it's the choice of wording people use... "No Noobs", or any other terminology that indicates that the person forming the group is all that and anyone else who doesn't know the quest is not up to par. This is so wrong.

I remember back in my big leading whatever days... I would post for a raid and take whomever... well, mostly... there were and still are some players I won't team with. Anyways, I remember one day when someone sent me a tell to explain they don't know the raid, don't speak english too well, etc.. etc.. I accepted him onto team. Well, this guy from Brazil turned out to fit in just fine, needed very little direction, etc. In the end, he joined my raids regularly afterwards and turned out to be a **** fine player in this game.

Now, with respect to Paladins, which I have 3 of... no one who really knows this game would leave a paladin off a raid because they may not have enough DPS or can be a benefit to a party.

I think of my GTWF, Piercing Speced Drow Pally Miserye with KoTC and that Holy Sword Spell. Do the math on a 30 str pally with Zeal and all that other stuff. You should see all the pretty numbers flying by so fast the screen can barely process them, especially in a Shroud run.

Obviously this is not a shot at what you have posted Bunk, or your logic, as you are most likely taking it and representing it in the most positive of light. Me on the other hand, I'm seeing it the other way.

[Bunker]

Obviously this is not a shot at what you have posted Bunk, or your logic, as you are most likely taking it and representing it in the most positive of light. Me on the other hand, I'm seeing it the other way.

Every Clark has a Lex.

I could have went that route. I was giving those in this thread the benifit of the doubt. However, we all know that a likely reason to have those lfms I have stated is simply because the leader is trying to fill a void they cannot do themself.

Sure they dont' want any "noobs" in thier groups, because having 2 or more is too much for them to handle, and with them starting the group, there is already 1 noob in the group.

Especially on the forums, you will see discussion like this one about lfms like those. Much of the time, these discussions/rants are because gamers take those comments personally. That is the first mistake. Those lfms might appear negative towards those who can't join, but I say knowing ahead of time not to join will probably save you stress and strain in the future. Not liking a leaders lfm is a great indicator that you probably wont' care for the group. So you have to ask yourself, do you really want to be in that group?

Ahhh yes, the entertainment of this game sure does reach beyond the creative minds of Turbine. All these players bring such drama, I have no need for my Weekly late night TV shows.

[Ministry]

... Those lfms might appear negative towards those who can't join, but I say knowing ahead of time not to join will probably save you stress and strain in the future. Not liking a leaders lfm is a great indicator that you probably wont' care for the group. So you have to ask yourself, do you really want to be in that group?

BINGO!

---

Umm... Clark and Lex?

Oh I hope I'm Lex, as Clark makes me puke.

[Aspenor]

p.s pally is nono DPS silly man

I certainly hope this is a joke. If not, you don't know what you are talking about.

[Thrudh]

If you sent like three tells to the leader I think that was the raid me and my bud were running...

p.s pally is nono DPS silly man

Nah, I did send one tell pointing out that a TWF Knight of the Chalice with dual Min IIs does more DPS than any other character in the game in a 1-2 minute fight with the Pit Fiend, but it was more a FYI, and I ended the tell with "but no worries, good luck to ya!"

I didn't ask for him to change his decision, and joined another Shroud group about 45 seconds later...

Really guys, this wasn't me crying about not getting into a group... Just amazing to me that people who are trying to be selective don't know enough to be selective. I thought it was funny.

[eonfreon]

Nah, I did send one tell pointing out that a TWF Knight of the Chalice with dual Min IIs does more DPS than any other character in the game in a 1-2 minute fight with the Pit Fiend, but it was more a FYI, and I ended the tell with "but no worries, good luck to ya!"

I didn't ask for him to change his decision, and joined another Shroud group about 45 seconds later...

Really guys, this wasn't me crying about not getting into a group... Just amazing to me that people who are trying to be selective don't know enough to be selective. I thought it was funny.

Hehe Thrudth, you should know it doesn't matter what you intended it to be about, we're gonna make it about whatever we want to .

[Tin_Dragon]

I have to respectfully disagree. On the one hand, if you form a group expecting that any newer player listening to your instructions will call you a "elitist know it all", then you might be right.

But if you form a group, expecting to enjoy the quest, have a bit of fun, and get a completion, I don't see why 11 new players will a tiny bit of direction can't get it done.

.

I Don't understand it either, but it happens, has happened to me, and I have been in Raids of people I run with regularly get the same thing.

They come in, they dont bother saying its their 1st time, or they dont have in depth understanding, then go and screw something up.

I have seen part 2-5 fail because of this. I have seen hounds, Vods fail.

By the time someone owns up to not knowing, its too late, they screwed it for everyone.

So yeah, I'd rather run with people who know than not.

I have had my not n00b friendly lfm up and gotten tells like "1st timer, can i come learn it" 99% of the time, I say sure thing, and they learn it. or at least, they follow directions of we are zerging, and dont hinder anyone. I will teach, but i am not a patient person when it comes right down to it. So I expect directions to be followed the 1st time correctly, just like I am expected to do.



On a similar not, I have a long DNP list just from the last month or so. I just dropped a Shroud, and let the leader know why. Someone who joined is on the list, I told him why, and told him that player is my problem not his. This player Pileon'd through Von flagging with me a few weeks back, and died in EVERYONE killing 10% exp in each quest even though 4, FOUR, of us in group kept repeating the SAME things to him. When I did the raid a few hours later, I had already squelched him, and he sent tells to 5 people in the raid flat out LYING about me being a newbie, and not knowing what I was doing. Many of the group know me, so when the 1 guy who didnt starting REPEATING this **** in VC, they backed me when I told them what really happened.

That single event, was enough after so many smaller ones, to make me not want to deal with newer players most of th e time. And I will drop group in any group he comes into, cleric, caster, doesnt matter. We arent allowed thanks to Turbine to publicly name them, and I dont want to explain this situation 200 times. So, I'll tell the leader I have an issue, and GL, and move on.

[Bunker]

BINGO!

---

Umm... Clark and Lex?

Oh I hope I'm Lex, as Clark makes me puke.

Oh don't worry, you are definitly Lex.

[Bunker]

Really guys, this wasn't me crying about not getting into a group... Just amazing to me that people who are trying to be selective don't know enough to be selective. I thought it was funny.

And you want to know why these players are selective? They lead by example. So many Vets do it and post it in thier lfms, that as a newer player, they probably think that it is a good idea.

Nothing like showing the way, just to have the way bite us when we aren't looking.

[RobbinB]

Nah, I did send one tell pointing out that a TWF Knight of the Chalice with dual Min IIs does more DPS than any other character in the game in a 1-2 minute fight with the Pit Fiend, but it was more a FYI, and I ended the tell with "but no worries, good luck to ya!"

I didn't ask for him to change his decision, and joined another Shroud group about 45 seconds later...

Really guys, this wasn't me crying about not getting into a group... Just amazing to me that people who are trying to be selective don't know enough to be selective. I thought it was funny.

Come on over and start a new character on Orien....90% of the lfm leaders haven't a clue and if you have a multiclass you seriously can't get into a group. And there's not going to be another run 45 seconds later since there's maybe one PUG shroud run happening a week, if that. So you are left to run a lot of solo content, which occasionally actually represents a challenge if you don't roll a cookie-cutter sorc, FvS, or monk (since you won't be twinked up the wazoo).

I feel bad for these raid-leader wannabes, since I can just imagine the potential guild chat mocking this person to the point where it has long-time effects on their credibility.

[KingOfCheese]

Having a wild card adds to the challenge. Try doing some of these runs in "sabotage" mode = one or two of the raiders is chosen (intentionally) with the sole goal of trying to ruin the run for everyone else. It is fun to do these, and great practice for how to compensate for the unintentional sabotages you'll get with some players.