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  1. #1
    Community Member mediocresurgeon's Avatar
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    Default Why did Shroud p2 change?

    I started running the Shroud right at the tail end of Mod 6 (I recently completed my 60th run on my main about a week back) but I have some questions about the sudden shift in strategy which occurred at the release of Mod 9.

    The "old" strategy (for those who are unfamiliar or have forgotten about it) is to keep the 4 named monster separated from the very beginning of this fight. In most situations, you have 1 DPS and 1 healer fight the Outsider (Devil, Orthon, or Cat) in the "west cubby," put the 2 humanoids (gnoll, troll, orc, kobold, trog) into the southeast corner with 3 blockers and a Wall of Fire, and put the elemental in the Northeast corner with either (a) a self-healing caster or (b) evasion DPS and a healer. Each of the 3 teams preps their monster to ~10% hp, then kills them all within ~5 seconds of each other. The caster who cast Wall of Fire on the southeast corner (also referred to as "The Wall") is usually waiting at the crystal, since they are not required to actually be near the monsters that are cooking.

    The "new" strategy is to pull all 4 monsters into the south central area (near the "buffing rock"), and, as a group, DPS all monsters down to 0% health. Once the monsters no longer have a health bar, the people holding aggro on these monsters split apart from the main group and deal a few more additional points of damage to each monster, killing them. A caster waits at the crystal.

    Here is my question: Why did the strategy shift from splitting before killing to killing as a group, then splitting?

    Out of the last 10 Shrouds I have been in, the "new" strategy has been used and not a single Shroud has had a perfect (meaning no "repull") p2. Something always seems to happen--one person gets the aggro from more than 1 creature, making the syncronized killing virtually impossible, or the clerics run out of mana because the fire elemental is nuking the entire group, the Gnoll plants a blade barrier (which people promptly start running through) while he proceeds to start spamming Dispel magic on the group, or the monsters show up at different times and someone kills a monster prematurely, etc. These problems rarely occur when the monsters are split up beforehand, yet this new way remains the most widely accepted and practiced method of completing p2 of the Shroud. What is the advantage of mass-pulling that I am failing to see?

    The nerfing will continue until morale improves!

  2. #2
    Community Member Lorien_the_First_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediocresurgeon View Post
    Here is my question: Why did the strategy shift from splitting before killing to killing as a group, then splitting? It's WAY faster this way and easier to coordinate take down

    Out of the last 10 Shrouds I have been in, the "new" strategy has been used and not a single Shroud has had a perfect (meaning no "repull") p2. you have been in bad groups?
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  3. #3
    Community Member valorik's Avatar
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    how it's been done for a LONG time on ghallanda, maybe some things were picked up on the mod 9 beta server?
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  4. #4
    Community Member cdemeritt's Avatar
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    Well, tactics change... I have never seen either set of tactics you mention implemented... on Thelanis, the general shroud run has been to pull the Elei to the southeast, and the rest to the SW... Beat down and pull off... one at a time... slowest first... caster on crystal... most runs 100% smooth... on occasion the orc gets stuck on his way to the party, and causes a snaffu, but not often.

    My guess the change in tactics has more to do with aggro, DPS, and just general trying something different.
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  5. #5
    Bray The Great Whale SEMPER's Avatar
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    well id say this shift didnt happen with the release of mod 9 at least for me I was doing it before that with the groups i run with normally and as long as people listen to whats going on there usually isnt a problem and if there is oh well just do it again , its not like the old way worked 100% of the time as well and its just faster imho and to me after the 200th , 300th run in shroud i want to get it done as fast and as efficiently as possible so i can run another one or another raid i have alot of alts and i like to get things done

    as a side note whomever has the agro of the fire ele should know to or be told to , turn the agro away from the rest of the party so he only hits the melee hitting him
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  6. #6
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    does it really matter which method is used? The method the leader feels most comfortable with leading is usually a good one. Re-pulls will happen whenever people dont understand agro mechanics, or dont listen, it doesnt really matter which method you use.
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  7. #7
    Community Member RigorAdar's Avatar
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    Alot of new people are starting to run Shrouds now and the pary leaders dont know peoples capabilities yet. Its easier to keep an eye on things when they arei n a central location, and takes less time to explain and show people what to do. You only need to rely on the caster to find his way to the crystal, everyone else is at the center and not lost somewhere in the maze.

  8. #8
    Community Member mediocresurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RigorAdar View Post
    Alot of new people are starting to run Shrouds now and the pary leaders dont know peoples capabilities yet. Its easier to keep an eye on things when they arei n a central location, and takes less time to explain and show people what to do. You only need to rely on the caster to find his way to the crystal, everyone else is at the center and not lost somewhere in the maze.
    This makes sense. Thank you for the constructive response.

    The nerfing will continue until morale improves!

  9. #9

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    OP, for the reason you specified, khyber does it in yet another different way. we put the fire/earth ele in SE with 1 caster. up in NE we usually have cat, kobold, orc, devil or orthon, 2 bosses will be there. in the room just before, we have gnoll, troll or trog and just have only 1 melee on it with an occasional heal from the healers up in NE. unless its the cat, the 10 in NE will drop the 2 bosses, rush to E to kill the lone boss there. 10 will proceed to the elemental, 1 caster, ranger or caster will move to the centre to break the crystal. if we get the cat, then the other NE boss and the E boss is taken out first, have 2-3 people wait on cat, rest rush to SE

    this method is not as fast as the pull all to south, split up and kill tactic but a less experienced group can carry it out quite easily.
    If you want to know why...

  10. #10
    Community Member spyderwolf's Avatar
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    we have been killing together for over a year . maybe longer. all the speed runs used this as well. the old kill them seperate is slow. killing them together jsut takes people actually paying attention, which most pugs (and some guilded people) cant do.

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  11. #11
    Community Member RigorAdar's Avatar
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    With lvl 20's in the party its never a problem with dps in part 2 its just a matter of coordination. The less running around you have the party doing the less room for error. In the single group method as long as you reiterate the need for no one to get more than 1 mobs aggro its by far the easiest to coordinate and execute. IMO

  12. #12
    Community Member Dexxaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RigorAdar View Post
    With lvl 20's in the party its never a problem with dps in part 2 its just a matter of coordination. The less running around you have the party doing the less room for error. In the single group method as long as you reiterate the need for no one to get more than 1 mobs aggro its by far the easiest to coordinate and execute. IMO
    Unfortunately I disagree.

    There are so many Level 20`s out there that have the gear and DPS of a Mod 5 level 12.

    Level 20 Tanks designed as Healing-Umbilical Chord players.... it becomes hard to ask these newly-Uber`d builds to hold aggro, kill stuff and stay on their feet in the Shroud on NORMAL........Much less any other setting or higher level quest.

    My experience was with Level 16 Capped players the success rate of a Normal Shroud Run (PUG I mean) was much higher than it is today with level 20 Newbers.

    Just a recount of my latest shrouding....thats all.


    The silver lining of all this is that my Gimped Dwarven Intimi-Barbarian-Cleric actually out DPS`s, Armor Classing, a ton of the previously mentioned filler builds.....and people actually allow him in groups!

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  13. #13
    Community Member pumagirl418's Avatar
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    Wink the beat down method

    the beat them to a bloody pulp, then split them is a way to cut down on time. or so i have been told. I have yet to see it successfully done. thelenis is all but ele goes to sw, beat them to a bloody pulp (separate if kobold pops) slowest to fastest, but ele dies last most of the time.

  14. #14
    Community Member HeavenlyCloud's Avatar
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    That strategy you are referring is the one that was used by most speed shroud groups with a few differences.
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  15. #15
    Community Member moops's Avatar
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    Ive been killing them together in all the shrouds I lead for over a year--many pugs were reluctant about it at first but since it is so much faster eventually almost all pugs seem to do it like that on Sarlona. I started to do this in preperation for Speed Runs--first splitting 3-1 and then all 4 together.

    After my 1000th Shroud I don't want to sit there for 10 mins while people argue about who can take the Devil or the ORthon and then of course people need all new songs and buffs again because we stood there so long.

    This method is also very friendly to single healer groups, which is also why I prefer it.

    The pugs that I jump in that have to re pull generally have new people in them--and a leader who does not explain the mechanics to them--We always put specific people on bosses and tell everyone else not to melee more than one boss if they have uber DPS ( and most people think that they do)--and no AOE.

    I also found that there were a ton of redos with the old wall method as well and of course people asking for more buffs and songs. . ...

    A good group can kill all the trash and the 4 bosses at the same time with all their part 1 buffs and songs
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  16. #16
    Community Member dasein18's Avatar
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    I like to pull all the mobs.. not give any directions and play Benny Hill music. This is the most fun to be had in the game.
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  17. #17
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasein18 View Post
    I like to pull all the mobs.. not give any directions and play Benny Hill music. This is the most fun to be had in the game.
    lol. yakkity sax ftw!

    +reps

  18. #18
    Community Member teapotdome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasein18 View Post
    I like to pull all the mobs.. not give any directions and play Benny Hill music. This is the most fun to be had in the game.
    yakkety sax ftw(hopefully) . i like it.

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  19. #19
    Community Member Rabbi_Hordo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    OP, for the reason you specified, khyber does it in yet another different way. we put the fire/earth ele in SE with 1 caster. up in NE we usually have cat, kobold, orc, devil or orthon, 2 bosses will be there. in the room just before, we have gnoll, troll or trog and just have only 1 melee on it with an occasional heal from the healers up in NE. unless its the cat, the 10 in NE will drop the 2 bosses, rush to E to kill the lone boss there. 10 will proceed to the elemental, 1 caster, ranger or caster will move to the centre to break the crystal. if we get the cat, then the other NE boss and the E boss is taken out first, have 2-3 people wait on cat, rest rush to SE

    this method is not as fast as the pull all to south, split up and kill tactic but a less experienced group can carry it out quite easily.

    Bingo. That is what we mean when we enter part 2, find out what is there and then say "Khyber standard split, *insert toon name and bard here* to the SE, the rest NE and *name of melee* pulls from the center."

  20. #20
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    And speaking of old tactics... was in a (failed) hound last week where everyone continued to run around the outside. I can't say that is the precice reason we failed, but it's the only thing that seemed out of the ordinary to me. Unless maybe we had some first timers who didn't mention they were first timers and didn't want to say so.

    As an aside, the leader said he had run 4 failed hounds that day.. so maybe it was him and not the pugers

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