Divide XP like it should

[Aiwendel]

Yes I'm sorry I'm whining but I get frustrated when I log on and there's nothing to do, so I spend and hour or two soloing something to get 5k exp.

Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better

[Thailand_Dan]

This has been discussed many times in the past, and the typical opinion is that this will actually encourage soloing/short-manning quests...a bad thing for a MMO. The current system makes it a bit easier on the player who just wants to solo, but does not reward them for doing it. If this was implemented, finding a group would be even harder. Why invite 9 strangers to do Reaver (especially since +3 tomes in any stat are now kept for TR), when you can 3-man it (EDIT: For 4 times the XP)? Think about it.

[toughguyjoe]

No matter how "easy" it is, it still takes a long time because no casual player has the DPS to finish quests in 5 minutes.

Even a casual player can make a Cleric, take Maximize, and solo to level eleven. Load blade barrier. Never look back. Oh by the way, with your mana for healing, you don't have to chug 500 cure serious pots. Imagine that.

And yes it is an MMO but what are you supposed to do in those cases when there are no groups? Dividing XP the real way is the only way you can get anything done if you have 2 hours to play and there are no groups.

I've rarely had trouble finding groups. I see you play on Khyber (which i have only limited low level experience with) and Argonessen (been playing there since I started)

In my experience I find gorups quite easily on Argonessen, and I nomrally join pugs on my low and mid level rolls. Most of my slots are taken up by level 14+ toons, but bringing them all up I had very little trouble.

Maybe you come on at an odd time, I don't know.

You personally not being able to get a group to run quests does not mean they should give you quintiple XP for completing a quest on solo.

If this became the case all veteran players would primarily solo unti they hit level 10-14. This would kill the immersion of veterans in lower end groups, and further divide the froobs and vets.

We need to come together, so the froobs can learn. Not sequester ourselves in solo quests.

[Junts]

Well it's definitely not five times harder. Not only because the mobs doesn't have five times more hit points in your rough example, but also you (your party) gets flanking bonus, your aura gives everyone boosts and so do buffs.
The 2000 HP mob will go down way quicker.

The point is I don't have the data to demonstrate it, but I'm 99% certain that there is no way a casual player can get good XP for soloing or running small groups (in the beginning at least). It WILL take much longer to bring the mobs down and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

But what you are neglecting is the limiting factor of defense.

Against the full strength mob, stoneskin is 20-25% damage reduction. A dr/3 item, like the golden greaves, is around 7%. This means that a -lot- of healing gets needed if you get hit a lot.

On the other hand, against the down-scaled mob, stoneskin is 66-100% reduction, and the golden greaves themselves are 30-33%. This means that through simple buffs or just static items, you can massively increase your endurance. While, say, a barbarian in the first situation may need constant heals because he loses 40ish hp per attack from 5-6 mobs in the pack (200-250 hp every time they all attack), that same barbarian, by hiself, is losing only 1-6 hp per attack (due to his barbarian dr). This means he can simply cruise through with little actual risk to himself. In practice, it takes nearly the same time because all 6 people in the above situation are not dealing damage, they are healing and buffing and doing other things that the player by himself never needs to, because the mobs are so very much less threatening, because the size of heals, and defensive abilities, does not scale.

This applies to everything from dr effects to elemental resistances, and it just massively nerfs incoming damage if you are remotely compentent at taking advantage of it. This makes the soloing easier and, in practice, often faster. You'll even skip shrines because you never have to do them, never have to stop and rebuff, etc, etc.

[Hokiewa]

The point is I don't have the data to demonstrate it, but I'm 99% certain that there is no way a casual player can get good XP for soloing or running small groups (in the beginning at least). It WILL take much longer to bring the mobs down and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

Hence the term......casual......

[Calebro]

.... and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

You're right, it's not. Not if you're going by D&D's standards.
Take Kobold's New Ringleader as the perfect example.
You run in, jump a blockade, kill a hand full of kobolds and possibly a hobgoblin. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and possibly two more hobgoblins. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and an ogre.

So maybe 2-3 dozen kobolds, 1-3 hobgoblins, and an ogre.
For ~1200 xp
Look in your Monstrous Manual and see how much that would have been worth if the exact rules from D&D had been followed.
Then stop complaining.

[toughguyjoe]

Yes I'm sorry I'm whining but I get frustrated when I log on and there's nothing to do, so I spend and hour or two soloing something to get 5k exp.

Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better

Tip:

Run explorer areas. They tend be less deadly than quests, making them easier to solo. Also ranged has great advantage there and two hours in say, Searing Heights(i see you have a lvel 8 toon) would easily get him a good 15k XP. Run around, shoot things at range, collect rares and explorers when you can.

[Thailand_Dan]

Just a suggestion here, but maybe you should roll another toon. I have no idea how many you already have, but having toons at different levels (or even different servers) often solves the mid-level blues, when it's hard to find groups. If there are no 10 - 12 groups, there may be some 6 - 9 groups. Clerics are needed at all levels, usually. Almost everyone needs a Haggle Bard to buy pots/scrolls for their other toons.

Once you hit high levels, you can usually find groups, and even if you can't, you can solo many things to get rare drops, or do loot runs.

[Aiwendel]

You're right, it's not. Not if you're going by D&D's standards.
Take Kobold's New Ringleader as the perfect example.
You run in, jump a blockade, kill a hand full of kobolds and possibly a hobgoblin. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and possibly two more hobgoblins. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and an ogre.

So maybe 2-3 dozen kobolds, 1-3 hobgoblins, and an ogre.
For ~1200 xp
Look in your Monstrous Manual and see how much that would have been worth if the exact rules from D&D had been followed.
Then stop complaining.

I don't remember that quest but I don't think they are 1hd (1/4 CR) Kobolds? because I haven't seen any mobs with that low CR.

But even if they are, 5 CR 0.25 Kobolds and one CR 0.5 Hobgoblin =
Approximately 600 Exp for a full lvl 1-3 group.

Then 5 Kobolds and 2 Hobgoblins about 750 xp

Then 5 Kobolds and one CR 3 Ogre about 1400 XP

For a total of 2750 to a lvl 1-3 player (I would give slightly more to a Lvl 1 than a lvl 3 just because I'm a nice DM)
Or divided by six = 558 XP each for some pretty easy encounters.

But those kobolds probably have warrior levels added to them and are higher than CR 0.25?

D&D is not a solo game, but if a single player got ambushed by those mobs and killed them all I would give HIM at least 3000xp

[Bradik_Losdar]

Another great way to push a terrific grouping game into a grave....

[Aiwendel]

Another great way to push a terrific grouping game into a grave....

There is a way to balance it so that you're not higly rewarded by soloing, but still get the XP you deserve.
That's why I mentioned that it would only work for certain quests and also suggested that a characters effective level can be calculated by his gear/value.

Newbies being forced to group for quickest XP is "fine" except when you log in and there are no groups.

And soloing for max XP should not be the way to go either, that's not what I'm saying.
Just that when I solo I get about 25% of the XP per hour that I would have got if I was in a group. Of course I shouldn't get the same XP per hour, but at least 75% or something would be fair.
How the heck would that ruin the game or make everyone want to solo?

And yes.. I know that with some (a lot of) effort I can probably (get geared to) up to 75% of the XP per hour. And by knowing the quests by heart etc.

[Calebro]

I don't remember that quest but I don't think they are 1hd (1/4 CR) Kobolds? because I haven't seen any mobs with that low CR.

But even if they are, 5 CR 0.25 Kobolds and one CR 0.5 Hobgoblin =
Approximately 600 Exp for a full lvl 1-3 group.

Then 5 Kobolds and 2 Hobgoblins about 750 xp

Then 5 Kobolds and one CR 3 Ogre about 1400 XP

For a total of 2750 to a lvl 1-3 player (I would give slightly more to a Lvl 1 than a lvl 3 just because I'm a nice DM)
Or divided by six = 558 XP each for some pretty easy encounters.

But those kobolds probably have warrior levels added to them and are higher than CR 0.25?

D&D is not a solo game, but if a single player got ambushed by those mobs and killed them all I would give HIM at least 3000xp

Or, you could try using the actual values instead.

15 (by your numbers) kobolds @ 0.25 cr each = 15x300/4 = 1125
2 hobgoblins @ 0.5 cr each = 2x300/2 = 300
1 ogre @ cr 3 = 900
1125 + 300 + 900 = 2325
6 party members means 2325/6 = 387.5 each

You get 4 times this (instead of 6), so as I said, it's a fairly good way to do it rather than change the entire XP system.
In the long run, it's all about the same.

And yes, these are some pretty easy encounters, as you said. But in PnP these are a lot more dangerous as you have less hit points, spell slots instead of mana, less attacks, etc.
So in the easier version of the two (DDO vs. D&D = DDO easier) you actually gain MORE xp for an EASIER encounter.
In a group of 6, you gain ~3.5 more times the xp for the easier encounter.
In a solo setting, it's much closer to where it would have been in PnP.

I don't understand what you have to complain about.

[Anderei]

The *casual* player doesn't care if he gets less XP/hour gaming or taking longer to level 20, why should he want to get there anyway, so he tops of to have to do raids? He just goes throw a dungeon and has fun. And before the dungeons in his level range are boring he gets easily to the next level range, without any XP enhancements you suggest.

You really take it from the wrong site, you're a powergamer who just can't powergame

[Aiwendel]

Or, you could try using the actual values instead.
you actually gain MORE xp for an EASIER encounter.
In a group of 6, you gain ~3.5 more times the xp for the easier encounter.
In a solo setting, it's much closer to where it would have been in PnP.

I don't understand what you have to complain about.

You still don't understand? I'm talking about when you DON'T have a group of six and you still get the same amount of XP (which is too low XP for the encounter.)
You're just pointing out how DDO gives you too much XP for being in a group with super-easy encounters, and yes I agree.

[Calebro]

Look at it this way:
This is a group game. You shouldn't get an extra reward for doing it alone. That's counter to the way the game was designed. If anything, you should get an extra reward for doing it with the group.
Oh, wait.... the extra xp *IS* like an extra reward....

Looks like it's working as intended.

[Calebro]

OK, how about this then:

The game gives you extra xp if you play it the way it was *designed* to be played.
But also does *not* penalize you for playing it in any fashion you'd like.

Does that make more sense to you?

[Aiwendel]

I'm not overly excited about getting too much xp for being in groups with easy encounters.
And I'm not too ****ed off about getting too little XP for smaller groups, BUT I think it could be scaled slightly better.

I never said anything about getting rewarded for soloing.

[Calebro]

I'm not overly excited about getting too much xp for being in groups with easy encounters.
And I'm not too ****ed off about getting too little XP for smaller groups, BUT I think it could be scaled slightly better.

I never said anything about getting rewarded for soloing.

Didn't you?
That was the first line of the OP.

I think you should get more XP for soloing a quest or doing it with fewer people. Just like in PnP, exp for an encounter is divided to all the characters.

[Aiwendel]

Sigh.. yeah more XP meaning more than you currently do.

I never said anything about getting extra rewards for soloing

You should get rewarded the XP you deserve. Everyone seems to jump to the assumption that I'm talking about 200% XP boosts per hour for soloing.

I don't see what the problems is, but still I had to make a bunch of posts to clarify a simple thing.

[dunklezhan]

Hi. Casual player here. Casual new player. 2 hrs a night. Most nights, true. And I do play with a static group on most of them, which makes me fortunate.

On the nights when I don't play with a static group, I run alts. And I solo lots. And I don't see a problem. Most quests in my experience at least up to L6 where I am now on my non-static alts can be run at level, on normal - take the right hireling and you can do them on hard without too much difficulty. If I want to run through fast quests I do short ones. Or ones slightly below level - which gives me an XP penalty, true, but I can do more of them, so it evens out.

On 'normal' or above I get the same XP as I would in a group, and that's just fine, and certainly very fair. Its actually only marginally faster with a group if you're at level because of the scaling anyway, at least based on my experience with our 3-man static group, and we obviously are used to each other's playstyles, have complementary characters and so on. And of course, the dungeon has scaled to 3 players. We still have the occasional wipe - its not necessarily easy.

It is faster, for the reasons you gave earlier, but its not that much faster.

That they even thought to build in a solo setting for quests that used to require groups to even have a shot at them is outstanding. They even scale based on the number of people in your party to try to give you roughly the same challenge level.

This is a very good thing, and is more than fair. Why on earth should a solo player in an MMO advance faster than a player who uses their social skills to team up with other players - as is intended as it is an MMO? This just makes no sense.

So should you get more XP for soloing? No. Not at all. Even though I wipe more when playing at normal difficulty but on my own rather than in a group. Even though this is technically more challenging. This is supposed to be played in a group. If you're playing on your own that's a risk you choose to take. Your XP is personal - you get better faster, hopefully, not your character. Your character gets better just like anyone else's doing those quests at that difficulty setting.

Simple answer to your issue - want to get more XP for soloing? Run quests on hard and elite, not normal or solo.

Other than that, I really think it would be detrimental to the game to make it more 'profitable' to play alone. I really do.

For reference - I hardly ever PuG. I find it hard to play with strangers because I'm very self conscious because I don't know the game well enough, and I concentrate way too much on not letting the side down and not enough on getting the job done. But it is my choice not to PuG. The few times I've tried I've had no problems finding a group, and as I'm based in the UK I'm not exactly online during peak times. I do not feel the game designers owe me any further compensation for my own social inadequacies, when they already give me a solo mode for the vast majority of content.

EDIT - I do however think they need a tick box on the difficulty selection screen: 'turn off scaling'. This could be applied to all difficulty levels - including solo. This should not award more XP when short manning, but should offer better loot.

EDIT EDIT - I should point out that being based in the UK I'm typing this at 1am. It may not be as coherent as I'd like. Sorry.