Divide XP like it should

[Calebro]

Rather than implementing a scaling of the XP for different numbers of party members, DDO has dungeon scaling for the difficulty of the quest itself for differing numbers of party members.
It basically equates to the same thing in the long run.

[Aiwendel]

It basically equates to the same thing in the long run.

No it doesn't.

How about turbine already made it ridiculously easy to solo with dungeon scaling and are now offering the "casual" difficulty, if someone can't handle those options then I guess they can always resort to finding a group, I mean soling isn't mandatory and this is an MMO.

No matter how "easy" it is, it still takes a long time because no casual player has the DPS to finish quests in 5 minutes.

And yes it is an MMO but what are you supposed to do in those cases when there are no groups? Dividing XP the real way is the only way you can get anything done if you have 2 hours to play and there are no groups.

[Junts]

No it doesn't.


No matter how "easy" it is, it still takes a long time because no casual player has the DPS to finish quests in 5 minutes.

And yes it is an MMO but what are you supposed to do in those cases when there are no groups? Dividing XP the real way is the only way you can get anything done if you have 2 hours to play and there are no groups.

Hp scales too, foo.

Pretty massively. I can go walk into a level 19 quest on normal and the mobs will have 650-800 hit points when I'm alone.

If I get 5 more people to walk into the instance, that same mob will have ~1600-2000 hit points. And hit 5 times harder (for 40-50 per attack, instead of 10-15).

[Calebro]

No it doesn't.

Hp scales too, foo.

Pretty massively. I can go walk into a level 19 quest on normal and the mobs will have 650-800 hit points when I'm alone.

If I get 5 more people to walk into the instance, that same mob will have ~1600-2000 hit points. And hit 5 times harder (for 40-50 per attack, instead of 10-15).

Thus substantially increasing the "actual" (if not the quoted) challenge rating of the mob, which would have significantly raised the XP, which then got divided among the party equally, leaving you with approximately what you would have had if you were alone.

In short: Yes it does.

[Aiwendel]

Hp scales too, foo.

Pretty massively. I can go walk into a level 19 quest on normal and the mobs will have 650-800 hit points when I'm alone.

If I get 5 more people to walk into the instance, that same mob will have ~1600-2000 hit points. And hit 5 times harder (for 40-50 per attack, instead of 10-15).

Well it's definitely not five times harder. Not only because the mobs don't have five times more hit points in your rough example, but also you (your party) gets flanking bonus, your aura gives everyone boosts and so do buffs.
The 2000 HP mob will go down way quicker.

The point is I don't have the data to demonstrate it, but I'm 99% certain that there is no way a casual player can get good XP for soloing or running small groups (in the beginning at least). It WILL take much longer to bring the mobs down and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

[Aiwendel]

Yes I'm sorry I'm whining but I get frustrated when I log on and there's nothing to do, so I spend and hour or two soloing something to get 5k exp.

Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better

[toughguyjoe]

Yes I'm sorry I'm whining but I get frustrated when I log on and there's nothing to do, so I spend and hour or two soloing something to get 5k exp.

Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better

Tip:

Run explorer areas. They tend be less deadly than quests, making them easier to solo. Also ranged has great advantage there and two hours in say, Searing Heights(i see you have a lvel 8 toon) would easily get him a good 15k XP. Run around, shoot things at range, collect rares and explorers when you can.

[Thailand_Dan]

Just a suggestion here, but maybe you should roll another toon. I have no idea how many you already have, but having toons at different levels (or even different servers) often solves the mid-level blues, when it's hard to find groups. If there are no 10 - 12 groups, there may be some 6 - 9 groups. Clerics are needed at all levels, usually. Almost everyone needs a Haggle Bard to buy pots/scrolls for their other toons.

Once you hit high levels, you can usually find groups, and even if you can't, you can solo many things to get rare drops, or do loot runs.

[Linenoise2]

Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better

When you look in the PHb how much XP does it say I need for 5th level? I got a 4th level character with 50k XP.

Let's put the PnP books away. They are only good as sources of inspiration for DDO. The numbers are entirely different fruits.

[Aiwendel]

When you look in the PHb how much XP does it say I need for 5th level? I got a 4th level character with 50k XP.

Let's put the PnP books away. They are only good as sources of inspiration for DDO. The numbers are entirely different fruits.

The XP needed to level in DDO is about 10 times more than in the PHB at higher levels and 5 times higher at lower levels. I think I know why they used one digit higher number but it doesn't make it that much more difficult to calculate for balancing purposes.

In the Kobold Ringleader example from earlier you encounter "2-3 dozen kobolds, 1-3 hobgoblins, and an ogre." for 1200xp. For a lvl 1 DDO character that would be about 1/5 on the way to leveling.

For a lvl 1 pnp character that would be like getting 120XP out of 1000 needed to level.
When by pnp rules he should be halfway to leveling.

Of course because this encounter would take much longer in PnP with everyone waiting for their turns etc, so it would be annoying to only be 10% on the way to level 2 at the end of it.

So when I say "I look in the DM Guide to see how much I should have got from those encounters" I do take into consideration that I need 5-10 times more encounters in DDO.

So it's only for encounter vs. encounter not for the actual number.
Out all of these posts, nobody has mentioned any implications of dividing the XP per character more like it should be. You would still get less from soloing and still get more from groups, it would just be more balanced.

[Uska]

Yes I'm sorry I'm whining but I get frustrated when I log on and there's nothing to do, so I spend and hour or two soloing something to get 5k exp.

Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better

I can make a new character and solo quite a bit with no twinking period, I would get quite a bit more then 5k xp at least for the first few levels.

[Junts]

Well it's definitely not five times harder. Not only because the mobs doesn't have five times more hit points in your rough example, but also you (your party) gets flanking bonus, your aura gives everyone boosts and so do buffs.
The 2000 HP mob will go down way quicker.

The point is I don't have the data to demonstrate it, but I'm 99% certain that there is no way a casual player can get good XP for soloing or running small groups (in the beginning at least). It WILL take much longer to bring the mobs down and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

But what you are neglecting is the limiting factor of defense.

Against the full strength mob, stoneskin is 20-25% damage reduction. A dr/3 item, like the golden greaves, is around 7%. This means that a -lot- of healing gets needed if you get hit a lot.

On the other hand, against the down-scaled mob, stoneskin is 66-100% reduction, and the golden greaves themselves are 30-33%. This means that through simple buffs or just static items, you can massively increase your endurance. While, say, a barbarian in the first situation may need constant heals because he loses 40ish hp per attack from 5-6 mobs in the pack (200-250 hp every time they all attack), that same barbarian, by hiself, is losing only 1-6 hp per attack (due to his barbarian dr). This means he can simply cruise through with little actual risk to himself. In practice, it takes nearly the same time because all 6 people in the above situation are not dealing damage, they are healing and buffing and doing other things that the player by himself never needs to, because the mobs are so very much less threatening, because the size of heals, and defensive abilities, does not scale.

This applies to everything from dr effects to elemental resistances, and it just massively nerfs incoming damage if you are remotely compentent at taking advantage of it. This makes the soloing easier and, in practice, often faster. You'll even skip shrines because you never have to do them, never have to stop and rebuff, etc, etc.

[Hokiewa]

The point is I don't have the data to demonstrate it, but I'm 99% certain that there is no way a casual player can get good XP for soloing or running small groups (in the beginning at least). It WILL take much longer to bring the mobs down and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

Hence the term......casual......

[Calebro]

.... and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

You're right, it's not. Not if you're going by D&D's standards.
Take Kobold's New Ringleader as the perfect example.
You run in, jump a blockade, kill a hand full of kobolds and possibly a hobgoblin. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and possibly two more hobgoblins. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and an ogre.

So maybe 2-3 dozen kobolds, 1-3 hobgoblins, and an ogre.
For ~1200 xp
Look in your Monstrous Manual and see how much that would have been worth if the exact rules from D&D had been followed.
Then stop complaining.

[Aiwendel]

You're right, it's not. Not if you're going by D&D's standards.
Take Kobold's New Ringleader as the perfect example.
You run in, jump a blockade, kill a hand full of kobolds and possibly a hobgoblin. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and possibly two more hobgoblins. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and an ogre.

So maybe 2-3 dozen kobolds, 1-3 hobgoblins, and an ogre.
For ~1200 xp
Look in your Monstrous Manual and see how much that would have been worth if the exact rules from D&D had been followed.
Then stop complaining.

I don't remember that quest but I don't think they are 1hd (1/4 CR) Kobolds? because I haven't seen any mobs with that low CR.

But even if they are, 5 CR 0.25 Kobolds and one CR 0.5 Hobgoblin =
Approximately 600 Exp for a full lvl 1-3 group.

Then 5 Kobolds and 2 Hobgoblins about 750 xp

Then 5 Kobolds and one CR 3 Ogre about 1400 XP

For a total of 2750 to a lvl 1-3 player (I would give slightly more to a Lvl 1 than a lvl 3 just because I'm a nice DM)
Or divided by six = 558 XP each for some pretty easy encounters.

But those kobolds probably have warrior levels added to them and are higher than CR 0.25?

D&D is not a solo game, but if a single player got ambushed by those mobs and killed them all I would give HIM at least 3000xp

[Bradik_Losdar]

Another great way to push a terrific grouping game into a grave....

[Calebro]

I don't remember that quest but I don't think they are 1hd (1/4 CR) Kobolds? because I haven't seen any mobs with that low CR.

But even if they are, 5 CR 0.25 Kobolds and one CR 0.5 Hobgoblin =
Approximately 600 Exp for a full lvl 1-3 group.

Then 5 Kobolds and 2 Hobgoblins about 750 xp

Then 5 Kobolds and one CR 3 Ogre about 1400 XP

For a total of 2750 to a lvl 1-3 player (I would give slightly more to a Lvl 1 than a lvl 3 just because I'm a nice DM)
Or divided by six = 558 XP each for some pretty easy encounters.

But those kobolds probably have warrior levels added to them and are higher than CR 0.25?

D&D is not a solo game, but if a single player got ambushed by those mobs and killed them all I would give HIM at least 3000xp

Or, you could try using the actual values instead.

15 (by your numbers) kobolds @ 0.25 cr each = 15x300/4 = 1125
2 hobgoblins @ 0.5 cr each = 2x300/2 = 300
1 ogre @ cr 3 = 900
1125 + 300 + 900 = 2325
6 party members means 2325/6 = 387.5 each

You get 4 times this (instead of 6), so as I said, it's a fairly good way to do it rather than change the entire XP system.
In the long run, it's all about the same.

And yes, these are some pretty easy encounters, as you said. But in PnP these are a lot more dangerous as you have less hit points, spell slots instead of mana, less attacks, etc.
So in the easier version of the two (DDO vs. D&D = DDO easier) you actually gain MORE xp for an EASIER encounter.
In a group of 6, you gain ~3.5 more times the xp for the easier encounter.
In a solo setting, it's much closer to where it would have been in PnP.

I don't understand what you have to complain about.

[Thailand_Dan]

This has been discussed many times in the past, and the typical opinion is that this will actually encourage soloing/short-manning quests...a bad thing for a MMO. The current system makes it a bit easier on the player who just wants to solo, but does not reward them for doing it. If this was implemented, finding a group would be even harder. Why invite 9 strangers to do Reaver (especially since +3 tomes in any stat are now kept for TR), when you can 3-man it (EDIT: For 4 times the XP)? Think about it.

[Thriand]

No matter how "easy" it is, it still takes a long time because no casual player has the DPS to finish quests in 5 minutes.

You made the choice to go in solo, the quests are already easier, get better and complete them faster or make a group.

And yes it is an MMO but what are you supposed to do in those cases when there are no groups?

Step 1: Make your own group
Step 2: ??????
Step 3: Profit

Dividing XP the real way is the only way you can get anything done if you have 2 hours to play and there are no groups.

2 hours to play is plenty of time to get a casual gaming group together and get something done. Causing the xp to be "split" only gives more cause for people to not group and only hurts casual gamers in the long run.

[toughguyjoe]

No matter how "easy" it is, it still takes a long time because no casual player has the DPS to finish quests in 5 minutes.

Even a casual player can make a Cleric, take Maximize, and solo to level eleven. Load blade barrier. Never look back. Oh by the way, with your mana for healing, you don't have to chug 500 cure serious pots. Imagine that.

And yes it is an MMO but what are you supposed to do in those cases when there are no groups? Dividing XP the real way is the only way you can get anything done if you have 2 hours to play and there are no groups.

I've rarely had trouble finding groups. I see you play on Khyber (which i have only limited low level experience with) and Argonessen (been playing there since I started)

In my experience I find gorups quite easily on Argonessen, and I nomrally join pugs on my low and mid level rolls. Most of my slots are taken up by level 14+ toons, but bringing them all up I had very little trouble.

Maybe you come on at an odd time, I don't know.

You personally not being able to get a group to run quests does not mean they should give you quintiple XP for completing a quest on solo.

If this became the case all veteran players would primarily solo unti they hit level 10-14. This would kill the immersion of veterans in lower end groups, and further divide the froobs and vets.

We need to come together, so the froobs can learn. Not sequester ourselves in solo quests.