New Monster Type

[Sarezar]

I know a few real people without souls.

All you need is an evil cleric, and we can test this theory then!

[SquelchHU]

What I want to know is why would you become a Pale Master?

Think about it. It turns you undead, so positive energy harms you. The primary means of healing in high end content is mass cure spells.

The chance of being accidentally or 'accidentally' killed by an ally seems a bit too high to me.

[Ghoste]

What I want to know is why would you become a Pale Master?

Think about it. It turns you undead, so positive energy harms you. The primary means of healing in high end content is mass cure spells.

The chance of being accidentally or 'accidentally' killed by an ally seems a bit too high to me.

Even worse, it makes you non-warforged!

[Rameses]

For what its worth Warforged have always seemed like the kind of thing that appeals to children.

edit: to be clear, that's not a personal insult .. to each their own .. but imo the warforged are the Ronald McDonald of D&D .. a marketing ploy to appeal to a younger audience base. And clearly the warforged builds are the "casual mode" of character creation.

With all the shark jumping this campaign setting does though it would be fairly pointless to harp on the idea of a Warforged Lich. Just silliness heaped on silliness.

Warforged are like Dwarf's in DDO. Turbine made these characters extremely easy to wrap around any Class so that once again the "Dumb Down" Factor would make the game easier for players.

Back to Topic... RE: your OP Ghoste. If we are strictly talking what "should be" then Warforged "should be" restricted from being Pale Masters as constructs are unable to be Undead. Strictly speaking from a "should be" stance.

I am, Rameses!

***BTW where's the new videos Ghoste? Haven't seen any since the changes to the XP panels.... ***

[Uskathoth]

The Pale Master undead forms in DDO fully convert the character to Undead type, with many of the benefits and drawbacks of the type. Repairs do not function on Pale Master Warforged.

If they fully convert then shouldn't they have ALL the benefits and drawbacks of the type? I think you are painting yourself into a corner with this. It would give you a lot more flexibility if the various forms emulate the undead type rather than "fully convert". Then getting only some of the benefits and drawbacks would make more sense.

In non-mechanical terms, the pale master is taking a short-cut to access lich-like abilities with out really becoming a lich (or other undead). While accessing those abilities he is undead-like in many ways but he does not really stop living and then return to life every time he turns the ability on or off.

That's my opinion at any rate.

[Fomori]

What I want to know is why would you become a Pale Master?

Think about it. It turns you undead, so positive energy harms you. The primary means of healing in high end content is mass cure spells.

The chance of being accidentally or 'accidentally' killed by an ally seems a bit too high to me.

Granted while I completely agree that mass heal is a great spell for high end content, there are plenty of times where I see a cleric spam a "mass heal" when a single target one would be fine. Also its helped propagate more zerging because it does target more than one with a single cast.

Also, as a Pale Master you are still flesh and blood unless take AND activate the Wraith or Lich form enhancement.

[poonce]

The Litch would simply have to be immune/not targetable by friendly cure/heal spells . . Thats the only way it can work from a Video game stand point, You cant have a toon, no matter what kind of toon it may be, excluded from boss fights becuase 11/12 of the people are "alive" and what keeps them alive kills you so stand in the corner and hide.

[Junts]

Iirc, they changed the Inferno damage to untyped rather than fire a long time ago. Been a very long time since I've stood in it though so not 100% sure.

this is incorrect, greaves and fireshield work wonderfully against it.

[Gornin]

Inferno is half fire and half untyped.

[Junts]

Inferno is half fire and half untyped.

This is not at all true; I and others have reduced inferno ticks to less than 50 per tick. There is no untyped portion. It is simply a lot of fire damage per hit.

If I crafted a fire absorption shroud weapon, my paladin could get inferno ticks down to 20 damage or less. Glorious stand's -50% elemental damage stacks wtih every other source of reduction. I take 60-70 without fireshield or such a weapon.

[Tin_Dragon]

The Pale Master undead forms in DDO fully convert the character to Undead type, with many of the benefits and drawbacks of the type. Repairs do not function on Pale Master Warforged.

There's a bit of conflicting lore regarding Warforged and the ability to become undead in the Eberron source material - one of the theological arguments against them being "real people" and having souls was supposedly their inability to become undead. We didn't want to lock them out of the Pale Master PrE, so we permitted them to gain identical bonuses to the other races.

Well since Repair is transmutation school, and your disallowing it for WF Pale Masters do to the undead subtype then the only logical continuation, is that NO UNDEAD be affected positively or negatively (effectively immune to) ALL transmutation spells/buffs.

Without that, this entire line of thought fails.

All the dev's need to realize, your messing with someone else's (mostly) pre balanced system, creatures, classes, etc... Mucking about and house ruling things over and over does not a better game make....

[Chaosprism]

Seriously I would simply disallow lich/ spectre forms for pale master warforgers..
they CANT become undead.

They can be necromantic masters, but they SHOULD not be able to convert themselves to undead temporarily.

They already get the ability to REPAIR themselves anyway and warforged characters already have a lot of the abilities undead have anyway. Immunity to disease, poison, level drain amoung them.

[sephiroth1084]

The Pale Master undead forms in DDO fully convert the character to Undead type, with many of the benefits and drawbacks of the type. Repairs do not function on Pale Master Warforged.

There's a bit of conflicting lore regarding Warforged and the ability to become undead in the Eberron source material - one of the theological arguments against them being "real people" and having souls was supposedly their inability to become undead. We didn't want to lock them out of the Pale Master PrE, so we permitted them to gain identical bonuses to the other races.

Is there any reason for Pale Masters to be unable to heal themselves with their own neg-energy spells then?

[bobbryan2]

Is there any reason for Pale Masters to be unable to heal themselves with their own neg-energy spells then?

I'm guessing balance reasons. Free 350 pt heals every 3 seconds is a little much. If they could balance it... like only being able to self-cast it every 30 seconds, it'd be a little more balanced. But I don't see the tech for that being easy.

Best thing they could do is leave necrotic touch like it is, but give level 12 pale masters a secondary ability that can be used to heal themselves and allies. Equivalent to an inflict light wounds that they can use every 3-6 seconds.

[Xenus_Paradox]

I'm guessing balance reasons. Free 350 pt heals every 3 seconds is a little much. If they could balance it... like only being able to self-cast it every 30 seconds, it'd be a little more balanced. But I don't see the tech for that being easy.

Best thing they could do is leave necrotic touch like it is, but give level 12 pale masters a secondary ability that can be used to heal themselves and allies. Equivalent to an inflict light wounds that they can use every 3-6 seconds.

Or just add Undead Self to valid targets on Inflict and Harm spells.

[KristovK]

Seriously I would simply disallow lich/ spectre forms for pale master warforgers..
they CANT become undead.

They can be necromantic masters, but they SHOULD not be able to convert themselves to undead temporarily.

They already get the ability to REPAIR themselves anyway and warforged characters already have a lot of the abilities undead have anyway. Immunity to disease, poison, level drain amoung them.

Warforged CAN become undead, as already pointed out, according to the guy who invented the race and world, Keith Baker, and backed up by WoTC(go figure huh).

And yes, Warforged arcane casters CAN repair themselves, and that's exactly as overpowered as fleshie divine casters who can heal themselves or fleshie arcane casters with UMD being able to heal themselves, or, for that matter, ANY class and ANY race with enough UMD who can use the appropiate scrolls/wands.

As for the repair not working on undead Warforged, it shouldn't, it's a magic specifically designed for constructs, NOT undead. Taking on the Wraith/Lich forms changes your type from whatever is it to Undead, so Heals hurt and Harm heals and Repair has no effect at all.

Now, they DO need to make it so you can target SELF with Inflict/Harm spells, not so sure about the Necrotic Touch, don't seem to remember using that on myself with my PM in PnP even after he'd attained enough PM Epic levels to become Undead type, probably because in PnP, NT has a rather limited number of uses per day, so it's not exactly something one would consider. Of course, it also paralyzes in PnP after a certain level...*shrug*

[Wizzly_Bear]

this is incorrect, greaves and fireshield work wonderfully against it.

Good to know - thank you.

[Gornin]

This is not at all true; I and others have reduced inferno ticks to less than 50 per tick. There is no untyped portion. It is simply a lot of fire damage per hit.

If I crafted a fire absorption shroud weapon, my paladin could get inferno ticks down to 20 damage or less. Glorious stand's -50% elemental damage stacks wtih every other source of reduction. I take 60-70 without fireshield or such a weapon.

My bad. I haven't run the Abbot in a loooong time, and I misremembered this quote from Eladrin.

The inferno is not untyped damage. It is fire damage. The messaging changed when it became a DoT.

[Ghoste]

Is there any reason for Pale Masters to be unable to heal themselves with their own neg-energy spells then?

Only that the devs don't want us touching ourselves in a negative way in front of other players.

[wiglin]

The inability to UMD inflict and harm effects onto yourself as a Pale Master in one of the temporary undead forms will be fixed shortly. All effects able to target "Undead Friends" will be able to target the caster as well, if the caster is undead. There will be a few changes to Necrotic Touch to keep this from becoming crazybroken(tm).