New Monster Type

[Ghoste]

So when a warforged Pale Master goes into wraith or lich form, they go from construct type/living construct subtype to undead type/??? subtype.

Any thoughts on what the new subtype is?

Pen and Paper has no rule for this, since in PnP warforged, nor any constructs for that matter, cannot become undead. But Turbine has decided to bring in a house rule for that, and I am merely pointing out that the house rule is incomplete. How they decide to complete it is relevant because it will decide whether or not warforged can be repaired in undead form.

If they are supposed to be undead/un-living construct, then they should still be able to be repaired since repair spells are transmutation and have nothing to do with the polarization of the life force attached to the target in question. In fact repair spells work just fine on non-living constructs (ie golems) who have no life force whatsoever.

[SimVerg]

WF are unable to be repaired while in lich form.

[Ghoste]

WF are unable to be repaired while in lich form.

Wow, you sure put a lot of thought into that.This is not a discussion about how it does work in DDO, this is about how it should work.

[wiglin]

My first thought is that warforged should still be fully repaired through repair and reconstruct. With that said all undead (pale masters) should be able to self-heal through negative energy spells, that would damage the living.

[Ghoste]

It would seem Wizards may have changed their rule about warforged not being able to become undead.

Did a search and came up with the following links:
Look under heading "The Dark Six" near bottom: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/as/20061113a
Here's another one. this guy really goes off about the reasoning behind all the details: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...ic=4164.0;wap2
And here are some links from the Wizards forums. Some of them discuss adventures already made by Wizards that contain undead warforged:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...1078#332191078
And here's one refering to a post by Keith Baker himself on the Wizards board about how warforged can be undead, although not liches specifically since that requires one to begin as a humanoid: http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...2154#332102154

Only thing I'm not having any luck finding any info on is whether or not this affects repair spells. Since they are from the transmutation school, and are not influenced in any way by the polarization of the target's life force, then in theory it should still work. However, if Turbine insists that becoming an undead construct changes this, then shouldn't the cause damage (opposite of repair damage, just as inflict is to cure) spells be available to use in the same way?

[Sarezar]

Since this is about how it should work, in my opinion what you are asking is not the best solution, as WF Wizards already have an incredible bonus due to how DDO was designed. Allowing them to retain this bonus, while all other races are stuck with the healing immunity is not only unfair, but would make the Pale Master the "Warforged Wizard PrE".

Warforged Wizards almost don't care if there is a healer in the group. The quickened reconstruct a.k.a. cheat button is the reason most people choose this race when they play a Wizard (not to mention the achievements they post, which most of the times are a joke). It is one of the most powerful class setups in the game.

If the other races receive some kind of way to heal themselves, I don't have any problems with WF being able to repair themselves in Undead form. I don't want the "no WF allowed" PrC to become the "best suited for WF" PrE though.

[Ghoste]

So by "should", you prefer to go with a more game balancing approach? Wouldn't surprise me if Turbine went that way.

Mind you it depends what way they go with whether or not they'll let Pale Masters target themselves. They can already target each other, so 2 or more already have no need for a healer, regardless of race, and can already heal each other for more than a warforged can for no cost. So the balance argument is already on shaky ground. If the bow to the demands of players asking for it to be self target-able, that argument evaporates completely.

[toughguyjoe]

Warforged Wizards almost don't care if there is a healer in the group. The quickened reconstruct a.k.a. cheat button is the reason most people choose this race when they play a Wizard (not to mention the achievements they post, which most of the times are a joke). It is one of the most powerful class setups in the game.

I don't want to turn this into a Flame war, but if Quickened reconstruct is a cheat button what is quickened heal, Quickened maximized empowered Blade barrier?

Is cleric not equally as "uber"?

Oh, and trashing on people accomplishments is on par with the lowest thing i've seen people do on these forums.

Kudos on going down to that level sir.

[toughguyjoe]

So by "should", you prefer to go with a more game balancing approach? Wouldn't surprise me if Turbine went that way.

Mind you it depends what way they go with whether or not they'll let Pale Masters target themselves. They can already target each other, so 2 or more already have no need for a healer, regardless of race, and can already heal each other for more than a warforged can for no cost. So the balance argument is already on shaky ground. If the bow to the demands of players asking for it to be self target-able, that argument evaporates completely.

This whole subject just boggles my mind. I had never even begun to think about Living Constructs turning into undead.



given the transmutation school though, I can see the arguement that they would work.

[Sarezar]

I don't want to turn this into a Flame war, but if Quickened reconstruct is a cheat button what is quickened heal, Quickened maximized empowered Blade barrier?

Is cleric not equally as "uber"?

Oh, and trashing on people accomplishments is on par with the lowest thing i've seen people do on these forums.

Kudos on going down to that level sir.

Easy there... too much hostility. Quickened Heal is a cheat button, too (for me). So was spamming the old stackable firewalls, which I did numerous times in my game time. I don't mean it's an exploit, just something that makes certain things too easy. All games have these things.

As for the accomplishments, I didn't mention anyone or anything in specific, so how do you judge my comment when you don't know what I am refering to?

I'll gladly hear what you have to say about my comments on balancing PM "healing", but please not with such unjustified hostility.

[Ghoste]

So was spamming the old stackable firewalls, which I did numerous times in my game time.

So you haven't studied up on just what the elemental savant class is? That one's also coming, and four of them in a party will be pretty brutal, Not to mention the advantages single ones will have depending on which element they choose.

[Sarezar]

So by "should", you prefer to go with a more game balancing approach? Wouldn't surprise me if Turbine went that way.

Yes. I agree with you that since this is an in house rule set, a decision that would allow WF to repair themselves would not be "wrong" by any other rule. And like I said, I don't mind if they allow it. But yes, I do believe it would be unfair.

Mind you it depends what way they go with whether or not they'll let Pale Masters target themselves. They can already target each other, so 2 or more already have no need for a healer, regardless of race, and can already heal each other for more than a warforged can for no cost. So the balance argument is already on shaky ground. If the bow to the demands of players asking for it to be self target-able, that argument evaporates completely.

If the self healing involves only inflict scrolls/wands via UMD, I think it would be balanced. WF would still have a major advantage, while fleshies would have a similar to csw way of healing themselves while in Undead form.

[Sarezar]

So you haven't studied up on just what the elemental savant class is? That one's also coming, and four of them in a party will be pretty brutal, Not to mention the advantages single ones will have depending on which element they choose.

No, I took a one year break, which left me quite behind on being informed about all the details. Still catching up with the specifics, though I admit I was never a Sorcerer fan. If you mean that the savants will be able to stack firewalls again, then I will only repeat what I said, it is a "cheat button", but I have no problem with it. A good player can achieve the same things with or without cheat buttons, it just takes longer without them.

[Ghoste]

If you mean that the savants will be able to stack firewalls

Four fire savants? No. A fire savant, an earth savant, an air savant, and a cold savant will be able to stack their walls, they just wont all be firewalls. Take out the fire savant, and you have what everybody's going to want in their Shroud groups. 3 crit walls are a lot of DPS for that pitfiend. Not that fire savants should feel left out, what with their total immunity to the Abbott's inferno. They can just be main repairer in Shroud groups while the other 3 handle dps.

[Sarezar]

Four fire savants? No. A fire savant, an earth savant, an air savant, and a cold savant will be able to stack their walls, they just wont all be firewalls. Take out the fire savant, and you have what everybody's going to want in their Shroud groups. 3 crit walls are a lot of DPS for that pitfiend. Not that fire savants should feel left out, what with their total immunity to the Abbott's inferno. They can just be main repairer in Shroud groups while the other 3 handle dps.

Oh, that sounds cool. I've been asking for an AoE with long duration cold based spell for a very long time, and even though what you describe will only be for Sorcerers, it sounds great for them, and not unbalancing at first glance. Inviting 4 savants in a Shroud than 1 Sorcerer and 3 Barbarians isn't really that much different (re: Pit Fiend fight DPS). Could actually mean more casters are invited in Shrouds It will also make Sorcerers and Wizards be more different.

I don't want to derail this thread though. Thanks for informing me on the above.

[Atenhotep]

Warforged shouldn't be Pale Masters.

The End.

[Ghoste]

Warforged shouldn't be Pale Masters.

The End.

For what it's worth, Keith Baker disagrees with you.

The End.

[Atenhotep]

For what its worth Warforged have always seemed like the kind of thing that appeals to children.

edit: to be clear, that's not a personal insult .. to each their own .. but imo the warforged are the Ronald McDonald of D&D .. a marketing ploy to appeal to a younger audience base. And clearly the warforged builds are the "casual mode" of character creation.

With all the shark jumping this campaign setting does though it would be fairly pointless to harp on the idea of a Warforged Lich. Just silliness heaped on silliness.

[Uskathoth]

I don't see why they would retain any subtype. They become type-undead w/o a subtype, IF they changed type at all.

But I don't see where the DDO description says anything about type-changing. It just says "you take on these traits x, y & z". It's not like you are going to take extra damage from undead-bane weapons.

Maybe the PnP version changes your type but that doesn't really make a difference in DDO.

[Uskathoth]

For what its worth Warforged have always seemed like the kind of thing that appeals to children.

edit: to be clear, that's not a personal insult .. to each their own .. but imo the warforged are the Ronald McDonald of D&D .. a marketing ploy to appeal to a younger audience base. And clearly the warforged builds are the "casual mode" of character creation.

With all the shark jumping this campaign setting does though it would be fairly pointless to harp on the idea of a Warforged Lich. Just silliness heaped on silliness.

So warforged appeal to kids but pretending to be an elf or a dwarf while playing a computer game appeals to a more mature client base. Obviously.