New Monster Type

[Ghoste]

I don't see why they would retain any subtype. They become type-undead w/o a subtype, IF they changed type at all.

Every other lich retains their old sub-type. Becoming a lich is not supposed to change that. However following strict PnP rules, anyone beginning as anything other than a humanoid cannot become a lich. But if you follow that, then you fail to explain draco liches, or half-dragon liches (aka Vol).

[Ghoste]

If heal has a direct opposite in harm why doesn't reconstruct with its speed enhancer have a direct opposite with a speed de-enhancer? Or is positive and negative only thought of within the devine spells?

Healing spells heal via negative and positive energy, the energies that grant life and un-life. This should of course be the same for a warforged, who is a living (or unliving as the case may be) being. Repair spells however have nothing at all to do with life, un-life, or even the complete absence of either.

Think of it this way: if a warforged is killed in battle,
1) what is accomplished by casting cure wounds spells on him? Nothing. The absences of life or un-life negates any effect. Unless your DM wants to resolve how the bacteria decomposing his organic components are healed...
2) what is accomplished by casting inflict wounds spells? Nothing. Same reason as above.
3) what is accomplished by casting repair damage spells? Well he certainly doesn't come back to life. But you may see that big dent in hit forehead go away. Basically it just makes him look prettier for the funeral.

[Gum]

Why not just have a DV like ability that can be used on self to restore hit points when in undead form? We could spend action points on the enhancement to boost the amount of hp restored, and it can be based on our Intel score. This balances the playing field for WF and Fleshies, gives the players an option, and doesn't leave either one helpless or dependent while on the undead timer.

[Inspire]

There's a bit of conflicting lore regarding Warforged and the ability to become undead in the Eberron source material - one of the theological arguments against them being "real people" and having souls was supposedly their inability to become undead.

I know a few real people without souls.

[Ghoste]

I know a few real people without souls.

I was actually reading through Libris Mortis, and in some circumstances, the absence of a soul facilitates the process of becoming undead.

[hydra_ex]

Perhaps the abundance of negative energy from becoming a lich prohibits repair spells from functioning properly; thus it takes a quiet area (outside an instance, ala time pendant) to find the concentration to use one, while the presence of monsters makes it impossible.

[RhapsodieInBlue]

I was actually reading through Libris Mortis, and in some circumstances, the absence of a soul facilitates the process of becoming undead.

Except in all Dungeons and Dragons source material, soulless beings may not be resurrected via a Raise Dead, Resurrection, or True Resurrection spell.

[Ghoste]

Except in all Dungeons and Dragons source material, soulless beings may not be resurrected via a Raise Dead, Resurrection, or True Resurrection spell.

And since it is clear that warforged can be affected via raise dead and resurrection, as discussed during the debate over whether they have souls before the Treaty of Thronehold, that would lead you to what conclusion?

[RhapsodieInBlue]

Just the simple fact that you can't come back to life if you have no soul. That was the only intention of my posting.

Also, without a soul one may not become a lich, because the essential step of becoming one, storing your SOUL into a phylactery, is not possible.

Basically, I am saying that you can throw the whole soulless argument out of whether or not a Warforged can be healed via reconstruct or not.

If it were up to me, I would say that while in Undead form, Repair spells only heal for 50% regardless of any healing amplification.

[Ghoste]

Just the simple fact that you can't come back to life if you have no soul. That was the only intention of my posting.

Also, without a soul one may not become a lich, because the essential step of becoming one, storing your SOUL into a phylactery, is not possible.

Basically, I am saying that you can throw the whole soulless argument out of whether or not a Warforged can be healed via reconstruct or not.

If it were up to me, I would say that while in Undead form, Repair spells only heal for 50% regardless of any healing amplification.

Did I say warforged don't have souls? If you knew me any better, you'd know what a scandalous accusation that would be. Death to all Fleshlings!!!

Eladrin touched on the point that they may not have souls. There are several arguments for and against that notion in the official Eberron lore. But all of that is moot since by allowing them to become liches or wraiths, Turbine has clearly ruled that in DDO, they do have souls.

The argument about repair spells was not that being soul-less means they can be repaired. I have said it several times in this thread that unlike the cure spells from the healing school, the repair spells from the transmutation school have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the target has a soul or is alive.

It has nothing to do with alive, animated (ie golems), or un-living. None of those things ever enter the picture when you're talking about a transmutation spell. The only way to explain repair spells not working on an undead warforged is what Eladrin said about them ceasing to be warforged at all. They basically become a human lich who just happens to look like a warforged.

[Gum]

Anyone else look at Warforged from a new perspective after seeing the move "Avatar"? Perhaps the old joke about Warforged are simply halflings in a Warforged suit could have legs, or any other race with this ability. Imagine the halflings astral projecting into the WF Avatar. With that said, it seems the WF would have a soul because they have consciousness.

Anyway, a dv like ability, self restore hitpoints, attainable and upgradeable through action points, and based on intel score would be nice.

[Ghoste]

Anyway, a dv like ability, self restore hitpoints, attainable and upgradeable through action points, and based on intel score would be nice.

Or you could just make it so they are able to point that nasty negative energy channeling finger at themselves. Seems a more logical solution. I can't imagine a PnP DM trying to explain why you couldn't touch yourself

[Gum]

Or you could just make it so they are able to point that nasty negative energy channeling finger at themselves. Seems a more logical solution. I can't imagine a PnP DM trying to explain why you couldn't touch yourself

ROFL..that would be interesting indeed.

[Ghoste]

ROFL..that would be interesting indeed.

Would that be going to far to ask Eladrin if I could touch myself?

[TreknaQudane]

Live? Repair has nothing to do with life or unlife.

Look at it this way: you can cast repair on an iron golem, a being without a spec of life in it, and it does indeed repair damage to the construct.

It will not take a golem that was destroyed and being it back to life however. Nor will repairing a WF that was knocked below -10 bring it back as good as new.

Repair requires that the original magic animating the object to be intact, The change in type from being undead kind of corrupts that.

[Ghoste]

It will not take a golem that was destroyed and being it back to life however. Nor will repairing a WF that was knocked below -10 bring it back as good as new.

Stop bringing "life" into the equation. A golem is not alive, it is animated. The golem stops working because its frame has become too damaged to continue to hold the enchantments that animated it before. You don't fix that by healing it, or raising it from the dead, you fix it by re-enchanting it. Can't bring something back to life that was never there to begin with. Do you ask your blacksmith to bring your broken sword back to life? Repair !=Heal

Repair requires that the original magic animating the object to be intact, The change in type from being undead kind of corrupts that.

Does it? Obviously it's changed, but I could list off a lot of spells that change a warforged without corrupting it's enchantments. Why is the warforged still sentient when it has "become corrupted"? Obviously the enchantments that got it running in the first place are still going, otherwise it would fall over like a brick. Which still has nothing to do with repairing, which has nothing to do with making something more or less alive.

[Favis]

The Pale Master undead forms in DDO fully convert the character to Undead type, with many of the benefits and drawbacks of the type. Repairs do not function on Pale Master Warforged.

There's a bit of conflicting lore regarding Warforged and the ability to become undead in the Eberron source material - one of the theological arguments against them being "real people" and having souls was supposedly their inability to become undead. We didn't want to lock them out of the Pale Master PrE, so we permitted them to gain identical bonuses to the other races.

If they are fully converted, why not gain all the benefits and all the drawbacks?

seam logical.

However, if Turbine insists that becoming an undead construct changes this, then shouldn't the cause damage (opposite of repair damage, just as inflict is to cure) spells be available to use in the same way?

The spell that is the oposit to repair is:
inflict light/moderate/serious/critical damage and disable construct. (page 103-104 Eberon Campain setting)
Personaly I would have prefered that WF the turned undead should get there hp back from them.

[wiglin]

Or you could just make it so they are able to point that nasty negative energy channeling finger at themselves. Seems a more logical solution. I can't imagine a PnP DM trying to explain why you couldn't touch yourself

Agreed.

I was really hoping that palemaster would give a reason to play a non warforged wizard with self healing via negative energy. Especially since it would only work for 3 out of 5 minutes.


P.S. (Off Topic)
Just give us warforged scouts. I think its way over do. Give the warforged fans an option for smaller toasters.

[Khazeous]

This thread makes me think about this:

+1.

"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe..."

[KristovK]

So when a warforged Pale Master goes into wraith or lich form, they go from construct type/living construct subtype to undead type/??? subtype.

Any thoughts on what the new subtype is?

Pen and Paper has no rule for this, since in PnP warforged, nor any constructs for that matter, cannot become undead. But Turbine has decided to bring in a house rule for that, and I am merely pointing out that the house rule is incomplete. How they decide to complete it is relevant because it will decide whether or not warforged can be repaired in undead form.

If they are supposed to be undead/un-living construct, then they should still be able to be repaired since repair spells are transmutation and have nothing to do with the polarization of the life force attached to the target in question. In fact repair spells work just fine on non-living constructs (ie golems) who have no life force whatsoever.

Warforged can become Undead, not Unliving Constructs but Undead. Repair spells won't work on Undead, just doesn't happen, as you keep pointing out, it's the magic, not the name of the spell.

And as our beloved dev pointed out, quite clearly, Forged PMs become Undead when using the Wraith/Lich forms, so they become subject to the same rules and magics that other Undead are, ie - Repair has no effect, Inflict/Harm 'heals'.

And, as also pointed out, that whole 'have to be humanoid to be a lich' thing..yeah..that rule has ALWAYS been totally ignored by TSR and WoTC, not to mention the DMs and players. As long as it has a soul and can make the phylactery and does the proper rituals, it can become a lich seems to be the REAL rule concerning this, judging from the dragons and beholders(not DDO, they existed prior) who've become liches, even remember seeing an Illithid lich before.