Newbie Rogue Survival Guide

[Calebro]

wis is never important on a rogue as most of the traps can be detected with 8 wis + item. a well equipped rogue is going to have a +15 spot item on at all times. as to newer players, the traps at the lower to mid level ranger are easy enough to spot. by the time you hit higher levels, your improved evasion is going to help detect the unspotted traps

As stated a moment ago, this is a newbie guide for rogues. They're not going to always have the best gear available. And they'll probably be running hard/elite content a lot, as that's what pugs do. They rush in, not following our n/n/n/s/h/e xp run formula. As someone who almost exclusively plays rogue-splash multiclass builds, I can assure you that dumping Wis, while not having level appropriate gear, will almost definitely NOT spot those traps on hard, and CERTAINLY not on elite.

As this was for new rogues, I strongly believe that dumping Wis on your first rogue is a big mistake. It doesn't take a ton of points to get it into a reasonable range, so I think it's a good idea.

[Aranticus]

As stated a moment ago, this is a newbie guide for rogues. They're not going to always have the best gear available. And they'll probably be running hard/elite content a lot, as that's what pugs do. They rush in, not following our n/n/n/s/h/e xp run formula. As someone who almost exclusively plays rogue-splash multiclass builds, I can assure you that dumping Wis, while not having level appropriate gear, will almost definitely NOT spot those traps on hard, and CERTAINLY not on elite.

noticed what you just wrote? "rogue-splashed multiclass"

a pure rogue has an abundance of skill points unliked a splash MC build which may have problems after filling in search, dd, OL and umd, unless the starting int is high

i have a L18 rogue which i did not twink until L10 or so. using gear that i could find, enhancements, i had no problems spotting traps in level appropiate quests. this, i can assure you. of course, a L4/5 in stk elite is definately going to have problems spotting traps, and even searching and disabling them

As this was for new rogues, I strongly believe that dumping Wis on your first rogue is a big mistake. It doesn't take a ton of points to get it into a reasonable range, so I think it's a good idea.

the main problems is not having a low wis. the main problem is not having a spot item on 24/7. most spot items come in goggles. at the lower levels the misery insight goggles is a very attractive. then you have the reflex+4 goggles from stk and so on. add that new players are unlikely to swap gear in and out, it makes a rogue the hardest class for a new player to equip

[Calebro]

the main problems is not having a low wis. the main problem is not having a spot item on 24/7. most spot items come in goggles. at the lower levels the misery insight goggles is a very attractive. then you have the reflex+4 goggles from stk and so on. add that new players are unlikely to swap gear in and out, it makes a rogue the hardest class for a new player to equip

That only reinforces my point about why their *first* rogue shouldn't dump Wis.
If they're less likely to swap their gear out properly, they're less likely to have those spot goggles on, making their Wis modifier that much more important.

[Aranticus]

That only reinforces my point about why their *first* rogue shouldn't dump Wis.
If they're less likely to swap their gear out properly, they're less likely to have those spot goggles on, making their Wis modifier that much more important.

it doesnt reinforce your point, in invalidates it! you might as well say they must have a high cha for umd, high int for search and disable, high dex for OL and then dump str and con to 6/8!

like what you said, this is a newbie guide, shouldnt we teach them how to play their toons more effectively than to teach them to build toons to compensate for ignorance and laziness?

ps: with lesser and greater reincarnation, this will be less of an issue. build knowledge gets dumbed down somewhat

[Calebro]

like what you said, this is a newbie guide, shouldnt we teach them how to play their toons more effectively than to teach them to build toons to compensate for ignorance and laziness?

For a new player to learn to play a rogue, he needs to find the traps. In order to find the traps, he needs to be able to spot them. If he's not geared appropriately (which he probably isn't) or if he doesn't swap gear properly (which he probably won't) then he needs that Wis bump to accomplish this.
This isn't about his 20th toon when he knows where everything is.
This is about his first toon, when he's learning the game, when he doesn't know where *anything* is, when he probably won't be swapping gear as he should (if he even has the gear to swap), when the other newbs he's grouping with will berate him for not spotting that trap that just killed the Wiz.
I'm not saying this is the best end game build.
I'm sayiing that a new rogue should throw about 4 points in Wis to help the shortcomings he's sure to have as a new player.

ps: with lesser and greater reincarnation, this will be less of an issue. build knowledge gets dumbed down somewhat

Agreed, and once he realizes what gear he needs, and then gets it, and then learns how to use it, dumbing down that Wis would be the right move.
But for a first-timer, I still think it's important.

Apparently we're not going to agree.

[Aranticus]

For a new player to learn to play a rogue, he needs to find the traps. In order to find the traps, he needs to be able to spot them. If he's not geared appropriately (which he probably isn't) or if he doesn't swap gear properly (which he probably won't) then he needs that Wis bump to accomplish this.
This isn't about his 20th toon when he knows where everything is.
This is about his first toon, when he's learning the game, when he doesn't know where *anything* is, when he probably won't be swapping gear as he should (if he even has the gear to swap), when the other newbs he's grouping with will berate him for not spotting that trap that just killed the Wiz.
I'm not saying this is the best end game build.
I'm sayiing that a new rogue should throw about 4 points in Wis to help the shortcomings he's sure to have as a new player.


Agreed, and once he realizes what gear he needs, and then gets it, and then learns how to use it, dumbing down that Wis would be the right move.
But for a first-timer, I still think it's important.

Apparently we're not going to agree.

if he could read this, then he would know the importance of having the spot item.... just saying....

[GreyWolf84]

Well thanks guys for all the handy info. And yes my build did receive a smackdown but hey thats why i put it up here and i wanted to see everyones view on it.

I know the Int. is a bit high aswell as the Wis, but my skills have been unmatched so far and are supreme, At level 5 now im sitting on a 23 open lock before tools and a 21 Disable Device, a 16 spot and 15 search, 19 on my Hide and Move silently, 8-14 about every other skill (though I am wearing Gloves of Escape +5 to skill, Goggles of Disabling +5 to skill, Boots/Cloak of Elvenkind +5 to skills Hide and Move Silently and a ring of the eagle +3 to skill Spot)... just started working on my UMD... didnt relize i woud rely on it so much later on..(PNP my rogue does not use Scrolls or wands, never thought of it in game)

The only reason I put my dex so high is due to the lack of AC in light armor or none. allowing me a better chance of not turning into a soulstone due to the lack of hitpoints being one of the weaker classes. Having a higher AC i think helps more then anything but again I lack in hitpoints because of it.

Also to Boot I use Duely Short Swords. have fun with this guys... I'm expecting some discrimination.

Also spending 12 enhancements to get a total of +3 to spot and search is not worth it in my opinion when they could be spent on more important things.

But to also add, I wasnt asking for help on a rebuild or anything, I'm actually having a lot of fun with this character. I was just looking for opinions and taking into account with what i could from the beautifully written guide that was offered.

And again Thanks Guys/Gals

[GreyWolf84]

Fixed.

I totaly Agree... I'm still a NEWER player (Sept.18,09{VIP Since Day 1) but when I built my first rogue i was dieing left right and centre, spending more time watching then participating. alittle annoyed i built and built untill i could solo Korthos on normal myself. This rogue has Completed that.

This Character has Only died in very few missions(mostly Kobold Assault with wack player's who cant stick together) when my sneak failed me and i was seen by a magic user. befor my SR14 came hold person would be my demise (No AC flat footed).

[GreyWolf84]

it doesnt reinforce your point, in invalidates it! you might as well say they must have a high cha for umd, high int for search and disable, high dex for OL and then dump str and con to 6/8!

like what you said, this is a newbie guide, shouldnt we teach them how to play their toons more effectively than to teach them to build toons to compensate for ignorance and laziness?

ps: with lesser and greater reincarnation, this will be less of an issue. build knowledge gets dumbed down somewhat

Well Technically you do need a High Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha. to have a perfect rogue, But perfect is out of the question. there is not enough points and with the drow not being able to use the 32 point build one must pick which to suffer in. I chose my Cha(relying on items later in-game). I use my wisdom not only for a spot mod. but to get runes along the way without needing a Cleric, Ranger, or monk to obtain secret areas.

[GreyWolf84]

Also they would want to keep the item swapping to a minimum. OOPS, only had 20 HP left and i swapped my Con necklace for my golden cartush (sp)

I agree to the minimun gear swapping probly cuase im a newer player and dont have much money but i write down my next level gear...

At Level 5 im wearing

Trinket = Wis +1 (newly gained)
Amulet = Diplomacy +3 (needs upgrade to +5 item)
Head = Haggle +3 (needs upgrade to +5)
Goggles = Disable Device +5
Armor = +3 Studded Leather Armor
Bracer's = Strength +2
Ring#1 = Intelligence +2
Boots = Move Silently +5
Gloves = Open Lock +5
Ring#2 = Dexterity +2
Belt = Constitution +3 (found in Sharn Syndicate)
Cloak = Hide +5

I've noticed that this works fine for me but if there is a better way... I'm not to familiar with the items in-game yet to put together higher level gear builds. But I noticed someone said a +15 item... again this is for new rogue ( I doubt they have or can even wear a +15 item.)

[t0r012]

I agree to the minimun gear swapping probly cuase im a newer player and dont have much money but i write down my next level gear...

At Level 5 im wearing

Trinket = Wis +1 (newly gained)
Amulet = Diplomacy +3 (needs upgrade to +5 item)
Head = Haggle +3 (needs upgrade to +5)
Goggles = Disable Device +5
Armor = +3 Studded Leather Armor
Bracer's = Strength +2
Ring#1 = Intelligence +2
Boots = Move Silently +5
Gloves = Open Lock +5
Ring#2 = Dexterity +2
Belt = Constitution +3 (found in Sharn Syndicate)
Cloak = Hide +5

I've noticed that this works fine for me but if there is a better way... I'm not to familiar with the items in-game yet to put together higher level gear builds. But I noticed someone said a +15 item... again this is for new rogue ( I doubt they have or can even wear a +15 item.)

hold the haggle helm but don't wear it all the time , only before you sell.
use the helm for your Int slot and free up the ring for something else.

soon you will be able to start getting stat/skill stack items which will help with the slots.
If buying stuff from the AH I try to not upgrade stat items until I get at least +2 over what I currently get. for skills I look for +4 more than what I have. unless you are getting a silly good deal.
====
Not being a thief expert I have heard the rule of thumb for skill items that are equal to your level.

[bandyman1]

How?

Drow rogue, starting 12 Con.

12
6 Con item
2 Con tome ( these can be found or purchased in the store. Either way, not too uncommon at this point. )
2 Exceptional Con ( you can craft this on a GS weapon, a ToD ring, or you can get it as a Dragon-touched rune. So multiple options. )
22 Con

HPs:
120 base for 20th level rogue
20 Heroic Durability ( all classes start with this feat for free )
120 Con bonus for 22 Con
22 Toughness feat
20 Racial toughness I and II ( you can think of a better use for 3 APs??? )
10 Agent of Argonessen Favor ( between all the quests in GH, and RR, it's easy to get 150. )
30 Greater False Life item ( easily aquired .)
20 Mino's Legens helm ( Heavy fort and 20 stacking HPs=yummy. There's a reason everyone's wearing them. )
45 GS HP item ( ie the x3 earth item I mentioned is cheap ingredient-wise. And you get a useful earthgrab guard to boot!!! )
407 HPs. With a starting 12 Con.

And like I said; >400 HPs on a toon with improved evasion, who's entire purpose ( if you actually want to utilize the DPS of the class ) is to not have agro, is far more than enough.

I reinterate; I'm not advocating a first time player start a toon ( of any class ) with a low Con. I'm just saying that's it's not the end of the world some would have you believe, especially in the case of a class that when played effectively, is not going want agro in the first place.

[GreyWolf84]

hold the haggle helm but don't wear it all the time , only before you sell.
use the helm for your Int slot and free up the ring for something else.

soon you will be able to start getting stat/skill stack items which will help with the slots.
If buying stuff from the AH I try to not upgrade stat items until I get at least +2 over what I currently get. for skills I look for +4 more than what I have. unless you are getting a silly good deal.
====
Not being a thief expert I have heard the rule of thumb for skill items that are equal to your level.

Ya, I'm being stubborn on the helm (its one of those face masks) kinda almost a lost slot lol(apearance) and i know i will suffer cuase of it but if i find another mask....

and i would assume your talking about the ring of the eagle(it was a last minute buy becuase of the goggles. normally amulet is disable device and goggles is spot.... and ya I relize with the 2 ability points and going up in 2's becuase of the affecting modifier.

But thank you for the tips.... Im always looking for new gear.....

[Calebro]

Best way to do it IMO is to get goggles for all: spot, search, dd
Spotted a trap? Swap goggles to search and find it, after you've found it swap to DD and take care of it.
The important part is swapping BACK to spot after disabling. This is what Aranticus and I were referring to with the swapping of gear talk.
Doing it this way opens up gear slots for loads of other stuff, and only takes 1 slot to fill multiple needs.
When you know there are no traps in a quest, or in the area, or you know where those traps are, you can throw on some other set of utility goggles for whatever purpose.
Trapblast for +4 Reflex, blindness immunity, whatever.

[malicia]

displacement scrolls while useful are seldom good enough due to the low duration of the spell. stoneskin is useful and mitigate some damage. while you mentioned some uses of umd, you fail to mention stronger uses, ie self healing with heal scroll, self buffing with greater hero scroll, shield wands to add +4 to twf ac

I fail to mention everything else with UMD because this is a "Survival Guide", ie how to not die in short bursts of combat. Stoneskin and Displacement were the 2 most relevant survival spells i could think of, this isnt a general UMD guide. Displacement is short duration, which makes it ideal to use right before you run into a small group of hard hitting trash, that is the advice i am trying to get across.

i'm pretty sure the umd is 28 for displacement

You are correct, and fixed.

as mentioned, the excuse is low duration and if you are looking at L20, displacement clickies from shroud is a much better alternative as it has a caster level of 16 and last 1+ minute

Please keep in mind this guide is for people who DO NOT have the best gear in the game available to them and are doing the grind to get those crafted items. What are people gonna do until they make a shroud displacement clicky? the scrolls do well despite their obvious drawbacks

please do not mislead new players into thinking the stoneskin can let them tank the elite ogre. the better idea would be to use bluff or diplomacy and then enjoy you sneak attack opportunities

Youll notice that the word 'tank' is quoted to imply that you arent going to get 3 shot straight off the bat if you have stoneskin and displacement on yourself, which is the point im trying to get across. right after i mention 'long enough to get one of X aggro ridding skills off', with bluff and diplomacy both listed.

100% agree

You would be suprised how many people new to the game even know what fortification is, while pretty much anyone who plays a successful character knows that this is entirely 100% necessary.

never use this near other squishies especially the healbot cleric, use this skill responsibly

Agree'd, will update the guide with that advice

a rogue armed with radiance rapiers, 60+ ac is a very good choice to run head first into a battle. after 2-3 seconds, you have a group of blind, 0 str mobs. it all depends on the experience and equipment of the rogue. generally i do agree new uneqipped rogues should not plow into the battle head on

I agree entirely. No new rogue is going to have 60 AC and radiance rapiers however. This guide is to help people be better slot fillers in a party until they finish this grind.

[malicia]

Thank You for this very helpfull information. I will be taking a lot of this into account when leveling up my Drow Rogue.

But I do have alittle differences in the Build.

Level 1 Stats:
-Strength = 10
-Dexterity = 18
-Constitution = 10
-Intelligence = 16
-Wisdom = 14
-Charisma = 10

At Level 4 I have for Stats:
-Strength = 12 (Gained +2 from Ogre Power Bracer's)
-Dexterity = 22 (Gained +2 from Enhancments and +2 from a Ring)
-Constitution = 13 (Gained +3 from Belt "Item gained from quest")
-Intelligence = 18 (+1 from Trinket and +1 from level 4 Ablility Bonus)
-Wisdom = 14
-Charisma = 10

** I do agree with you on the rogue should not lead the party into battle, but the rogue does prove usefull in the front as a scout but like me should move quickly to the back lines after spotting or even hearing enemy movement.

I hope you take this as advice rather than 'smackdown' as you refer it. You can make those stats work, but some of them are less optimal.

Firstly let me lead out by saying my rogue at level 17 with 8 base wisdom, a +15 spot item, 6 wis item, and all my ranks in spot can spot any trap she walks past. 14 build points in wisdom is a waste. make it 10. Youd be bettre off shifting these over to CHA for a UMD boost or perhaps to buffer saves if planning ot take 2 paladin levels (which makes a very powerful rogue multiclass by the way)

Intelligence 18 is a waste of your build point. a waste of a lot of them. Since its drow you can get away with 16 without it being too expensive, but 14 is probably better. +2 int modifier is not worth 8 build points. If you are thinking of assassinate DC's bear in mind that even with the 36 or 37 youre going to attain you are going to

a. be well over the DC required to assassinate stuff in the vale, which is likely gonna be the last place you get any meaningful use out of the assassinate ability

b. be well under the DC requirement to successfully and reliably assassinate stuff in Shavarath

Assassin 3 is where the money is and that doesnt care about INT.

Con. Read my guide, please, for your own reputation while levelling up if nothing else, start with more than 10 =)

Str. Needs to be higher. 14 is a good number.

Dex. 16 is plenty, you'll be putting your level ups there and you'll get +5 for being an elf + the rogue dex. Is +1 to hit and +1 ac worth 4 build points? maybe, id say probably not when you can put those points in use to much better effect.

Final consideration, if you are planning to not go with the high AC route, 15 str 15 dex, buy a +2 dex tome from the store to get your GTWF, and put your level ups in str. Youll save a feat and you will also be able to do much more meaningful damage in those situations where you do not get sneak attacks (ie undead, going toe to toe with mobs, bosses with levels of fortification etc)

[Aranticus]

You would be suprised how many people new to the game even know what fortification is, while pretty much anyone who plays a successful character knows that this is entirely 100% necessary.

surprised?

fortification

[malicia]

surprised?

fortification

Hehe =) ill link to this post in the guide too

[malicia]

OK, I have heard this, and I don't discount it, but before I invest the time into it, could you please talk about the drawbacks. For example, I use my +INT hat on my rogue. If I were to go this route, all my INT skills would suffer, is that a good trade off?

How you get your Heavy fort is irrelevant. You could get it on a robe if you really needed your hat space. Int is a common mod on goggle and ring, id suggest using an INT ring.

My advice for the Minos Legens stands as if you go and check the AH low Min Level Heavy fort items tend to be on the expensive side, and money is likely something that a new player wont have access to.

[kuroi-koibito]

I have heard this, and I don't discount it, but before I invest the time into it, could you please talk about the drawbacks. For example, I use my +INT hat on my rogue. If I were to go this route, all my INT skills would suffer, is that a good trade off?

For a rogue, INT and INT skills are situational. You only use Search and DD when you're dealing with traps or secret doors, and INT itself for upping your Assassinate DC or activating runes. When you're not doing any of these things, INT is going unused.

What you will be doing a lot of, what you better be doing a lot of, is combat, where INT only matters once every 15 seconds if you're Assassin II.

Moreover, INT items can be equipped in several slots; helms, goggles, and rings are readily available. Minos, on the other hand, is unique: it's the only item in the game that grants 20 HP that stacks with everything. For a high-DPS class with low HD and mediocre AC, you really need every HP you can get.

The drawback for rocking Minos is that you'll have to pop on an item for INT whenever you want it boosted. For me, it's worth the hassle, and getting Minos either by farming or plat is my top midgame priority. I'd still wear it if it didn't provide heavy fort.

(As a postscript, don't swap out Minos to boost INT via helm; you won't get the HP back.)