Dragonmarks now grant 100% success with scrolls/wands

[VtecFiend]

The objective for balancing should not be to make the various dragonmarks equal with each other; it is to make them worth spending feat slots.

Completely 100% true.


While my head spins with love of this... I really do think it's not a good thing for the game. There should always be self healing, but self healing that is too good like this would border on broken. Halfling is already a highly desirable race, and so are their Marks. Were this to make it to live, I can't really see an argument against making a halfling for almost any race that doesn't already self heal better than heal scrolls. And even then...

[Robi3.0]

Completely 100% true.


While my head spins with love of this... I really do think it's not a good thing for the game. There should always be self healing, but self healing that is too good like this would border on broken. Halfling is already a highly desirable race, and so are their Marks. Were this to make it to live, I can't really see an argument against making a halfling for almost any race that doesn't already self heal better than heal scrolls. And even then...

You don't see an issue with that.

[DropList]

I vote keep it! The three(most half take another 1 or 2 to enhance healing) feat investment/ap cost is huge. Maybe make the other marks of other races better to actually make them used. As it stands no one usees any but halfling anyway. Remember this guys a heal scroll w/o a wand and scroll line is only 110 hp and requires a con check. Realistically the 4 seconds it takes to cast is costing a lot of actual lost dps...so not as huge as one may think. My rogue splash ranger can self cast heal scrolls for 288 pts with a 44 umd. All with only a lvl of rogue....seems that is as overpowered as the DM change. Keep it...keep it....keep it Plz

[Missing_Minds]

In the D&D Eberron rules, you can get magic items (Dragonshard rods etc) which grant additional uses of Dragonmark abilities. Those things do not exist in DDO... and adding them to DDO as a vendor-sold consumable would be worse for balance than allowing scroll use.

How did you come to the conclusion that it would be worse for balance? Even if these consumables were made to be bound to the character that bought them, they'd still hold the same ability, and most people have money regardless if their hagglebot can't buy them in bulk for people.

What are you thinking through that I'm not seeing? Even by your later posts, you seem to think that UMD would still be greater/more useful. (of which I do agree)

[Favis]

Well if its not a bug its a substantial change to the value of those marks...they really should have included such a large change in the release notes.

Interesting. It's a bug, but we'll have to evaluate whether or not it should be a feature of dragonmarks.

make it feature

I rather like the idea. The healing dragon mark is a large investment in feats. What a way to make it pay off.

Yes, yes yes.

I agree, I would love to see this kept.
I invested in the healing marks for my wizard too
and this would be a great ability to have.

My vote is to keep it and expand it to the other dragonmarks as well. This would give a dynamic to a lot of the dragonmarks which get ignored and a fun addition to the game..... But until there is time to revamp some of them, at least exand the scroll usage to all.

agree

Keep it please!

[Strakeln]

Interesting. It's a bug, but we'll have to evaluate whether or not it should be a feature of dragonmarks.

The halfling dragonmarks are already much more powerful (in DDO) than any of the others. A change like this would shoot them into the stratosphere, while doing very little to increase the value of other marks.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea, I'm just suggesting that you consider balancing the value of the various dragonmarks first... something I figure would be a very difficult task (what could you give that compares to the ability to self-heal without failure?).

[Maegin]

if they have 11 ranks in umd, then they also are investing multiple gear slots in being good at umd, and possibly feats. I have several characters who get to 39 umd as cross-class, and to do so you need to use shroud items, possibly competence boost items or feats (most need both) and a considerable charisma investment.

3 gear slots + all that other stuff, or multiple class levels + at least a couple gear slots is a much greater investment for many than 3 feats. Specifically, -those 3 feats are already good choices on the classes that can afford to spend 3 feats on them-. On monks, fighters and wizards they are fantastic abilities. Since it is 3 feats, paladins, rangers, rogues and barbarians will never have the potential to pick them up, because they're excessively expensive. However, every fighter/wizard/monk, or even many builds with splashes of those, that might think itself wanting to invest in a rogue level for umd, now has a vastly superior option that lets it retain all of its class features!

39 umd is a massive grind for anyone that isn't a bard. Its a big deal, and its subject to debuffs, deaht penalties and all sorts of bad, as well as introducing major gear selection issues (which become bigger and bigger as time goes on, because DDO has more dps/caster related exclusive equipment, so devoting multiple slots to umd boosters and/or charisma becomes a much greater tradeoff).

for those feat-plentiful classes, this would simply be superior in every single way to rogue splashing. Why make a /2 rogue paladin? a halfling 18/2 monk would be oodles better! etc, etc.

It is really powerful.

This is the testemony and proof alone that all this work is needed just to get a way to stay alive. This is the testamony I've been wating for.

All this work just to get something as simple as heals. Sure its easy for CHA based toons, but ppl break entire builds and, sometimes, takes super planning of doom, just be able to heal, and its the reason all those pug sit and wait for a cleric to come along, the reason for hirelings, the basic sole reason for UMD, and all the other BS grinding just for 3+ extra points of UMD...I would like to emphasis the part where Junts mentions the tediousness of a MASSIVE GRIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MASIVE GRIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O_o O_o!!!!!!!!!

Ridiculous.

Using a heal scroll isnt the end of the game. ppl have been doing it for years, and it hasnt broken anything. Feats are worth their weight in gold, and the fact that you only have to gear swap now to use heal scrolls is actually a better trade than 3 feats.

I have them on my wizard, and I must say quests are waaaay less threatening and being able to short man stuff and back up the healer if we have one, has made my groups much more successful. Heck I just ran chains of flame, and I told the cleric he can ease up on the healing because i have d marks for our tank. he was thrilled and got to let loose with his fun spells, but it is in no way a substitue for the real thing. there is no way anyone can replace mass cures hitting for 300+ as opposed to a 100 hp heal on a single target, and expect to keep up healing.

Obviously the other dmarks may need tweaking, but this is a great step towards it, now all the others just have to follow suit. Because right now, the only feats in the game to a lot of people are GTWF line/powerattack/imp crit/ SF : UMD/metamagics.

Honestly, imo, I think that all these little splashes of classes are completly ******** just to get a front loaded ability of a class. 4.0 had it a bit right with surges, but other say that everyone is the same, but arnt we already all the same with the same 2rogue/monk splashes? Tell me what build doesnt have 2 lvls of splash for something that wasnt intentional to accomplish one of he following : UMD, saves, sploits, evasion.

The whole point of UMD is for heal, so make more ways to heal, other than UMD, for non divines.

[SableShadow]

Because right now, the only feats in the game to a lot of people are GTWF line/powerattack/imp crit/ SF : UMD/metamagics.

And unless you're a halfling, they'll stay that way.

[Junts]

This is the testemony and proof alone that all this work is needed just to get a way to stay alive. This is the testamony I've been wating for.

All this work just to get something as simple as heals. Sure its easy for CHA based toons, but ppl break entire builds and, sometimes, takes super planning of doom, just be able to heal, and its the reason all those pug sit and wait for a cleric to come along, the reason for hirelings, the basic sole reason for UMD, and all the other BS grinding just for 3+ extra points of UMD...I would like to emphasis the part where Junts mentions the tediousness of a MASSIVE GRIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MASIVE GRIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O_o O_o!!!!!!!!!

Ridiculous.

Using a heal scroll isnt the end of the game. ppl have been doing it for years, and it hasnt broken anything. Feats are worth their weight in gold, and the fact that you only have to gear swap now to use heal scrolls is actually a better trade than 3 feats.

I have them on my wizard, and I must say quests are waaaay less threatening and being able to short man stuff and back up the healer if we have one, has made my groups much more successful. Heck I just ran chains of flame, and I told the cleric he can ease up on the healing because i have d marks for our tank. he was thrilled and got to let loose with his fun spells, but it is in no way a substitue for the real thing. there is no way anyone can replace mass cures hitting for 300+ as opposed to a 100 hp heal on a single target, and expect to keep up healing.

Obviously the other dmarks may need tweaking, but this is a great step towards it, now all the others just have to follow suit. Because right now, the only feats in the game to a lot of people are GTWF line/powerattack/imp crit/ SF : UMD/metamagics.

no, the point is making 3 classes morons for being anything but one race, and for being that race getting an incredibly potent ability everyone else grinds for months and builds their character around, with none of the downsides, for free.

If you cant see how that's bad ... lets try this.

There is now a feat that provides Tempest/Zeal (+10% attack speed).

Only humans can take it.

What barbarian or rogue would ever, ever be a non-human again? That's right: none, cause those effects are incredibly powerful, especially combined with the benefits those classes otherwise have to give up to the bonus.

Its agood idea to give players more means to access healing. Its a bad idea to make it so much easier for a few classes in one race only, since it makes it disproportionately easy for them.

[Maegin]

no, the point is making 3 classes morons for being anything but one race, and for being that race getting an incredibly potent ability everyone else grinds for months and builds their character around, with none of the downsides, for free.

If you cant see how that's bad ... lets try this.

There is now a feat that provides Tempest/Zeal (+10% attack speed).

Only humans can take it.

What barbarian or rogue would ever, ever be a non-human again? That's right: none, cause those effects are incredibly powerful, especially combined with the benefits those classes otherwise have to give up to the bonus.

Its agood idea to give players more means to access healing. Its a bad idea to make it so much easier for a few classes in one race only, since it makes it disproportionately easy for them.

Well this is a good start to your plan. Alter the other dmarks. Come up with more ways like this proposal.

I think its bs in the first place that you plan an entire character around one skill, UMD, in the first place. The fact that you have to just stunts the potential in the first place. I have never seen one skill be so important in my life in a game since UMD. really its disgusting.

And they alreay have your zeal proposal. 6 lvls of ranger :/ Who doesnt have those famed 6 lvls or something equal to, ta compensate?

Idk man, I see where your coming from and respect your opinon too, but I jsut feel other wise :/

C'est la vie.

[SableShadow]

Well this is a good start to your plan. Alter the other dmarks. Come up with more ways like this proposal.

I think its bs in the first place that you plan an entire character around one skill, UMD, in the first place. The fact that you have to just stunts the potential in the first place. I have never seen one skill be so important in my life in a game since UMD. really its disgusting.

And they alreay have your zeal proposal. 6 lvls of ranger :/ Who doesnt have those famed 6 lvls or something equal to, ta compensate?

Idk man, I see where your coming from and respect your opinon too, but I jsut feel other wise :/

So...the way to fix it isn't to overhaul the system, it's to introduce another way to abuse it?

[SolarDawning]

no, the point is making 3 classes morons for being anything but one race, and for being that race getting an incredibly potent ability everyone else grinds for months and builds their character around, with none of the downsides, for free.

If you cant see how that's bad ... lets try this.

There is now a feat that provides Tempest/Zeal (+10% attack speed).
And taking it requires you to take two useless feats first.
It allows casting of the Zeal spell (Which has a very short duration) 1/day. If you spend 10 action points to buy enhancements for it, you can cast it 5/day.

Only humans can take it.

What barbarian or rogue would ever, ever be a non-human again? That's right: none, cause those effects are incredibly powerful, especially combined with the benefits those classes otherwise have to give up to the bonus.

Its agood idea to give players more means to access healing. Its a bad idea to make it so much easier for a few classes in one race only, since it makes it disproportionately easy for them.

Made a little change to make it more reflective of the dragonmark situation.
And to further liken it to dragonmarks allowing use of heal scrolls, add the following:
"It will also allow you to spend lots of platinum to buy and use scrolls of Zeal."

[SableShadow]

Made a little change to make it more reflective of the dragonmark situation.
And to further liken it to dragonmarks allowing use of heal scrolls, add the following:
"It will also allow you to spend lots of platinum to buy and use scrolls of Zeal."

Pity the halfling marks currently suck so bad that you never see people building entire characters around them. Oh, wait...

[Maegin]

So...the way to fix it isn't to overhaul the system, it's to introduce another way to abuse it?

Made a little change to make it more reflective of the dragonmark situation.
And to further liken it to dragonmarks allowing use of heal scrolls, add the following:
"It will also allow you to spend lots of platinum to buy and use scrolls of Zeal."

ppl build around UMD, sable, so....

C'est la vie.

Said my peace, I agree to disagree.

[Favis]

no, the point is making 3 classes morons for being anything but one race, and for being that race getting an incredibly potent ability everyone else grinds for months and builds their character around, with none of the downsides, for free.

If you cant see how that's bad ... lets try this.

There is now a feat that provides Tempest/Zeal (+10% attack speed).

And taking it requires you to take two useless feats first.
It allows casting of the Zeal spell (Which has a very short duration) 1/day. If you spend 10 action points to buy enhancements for it, you can cast it 5/day.

Only humans can take it.

What barbarian or rogue would ever, ever be a non-human again? That's right: none, cause those effects are incredibly powerful, especially combined with the benefits those classes otherwise have to give up to the bonus.

Its agood idea to give players more means to access healing. Its a bad idea to make it so much easier for a few classes in one race only, since it makes it disproportionately easy for them.

Made a little change to make it more reflective of the dragonmark situation.
And to further liken it to dragonmarks allowing use of heal scrolls, add the following:
"It will also allow you to spend lots of platinum to buy and use scrolls of Zeal."

So with the feat that provides Tempest/Zeal (+10% attack speed) that has 2 "not so usefull" pre-req feats.
I asume that few barbarian would take it.

3 feats is a heavy investment and I don't think it could compaire to 1 feat investment.

[SolarDawning]

Pity the halfling marks currently suck so bad that you never see people building entire characters around them. Oh, wait...

I never said that. I just indicated that it requires a large sacrifice.
I designed my halfling monk around the dragonmarks. 3 feats and 10 enhancement points are worth, to me, having Heal 5/rest.

Yet, most monk players would tell me that it's folly to give up things such as Improved Critical and Stunning Blow for heals.

[VtecFiend]

You don't see an issue with that.

you misunderstand, I'm saying, if implemented, can't see an argument for making any race other than a halfling for anything other that something that already casts full heal on itself. Of course I see a problem with that I'm not stupid.

[Junts]

Made a little change to make it more reflective of the dragonmark situation.
And to further liken it to dragonmarks allowing use of heal scrolls, add the following:
"It will also allow you to spend lots of platinum to buy and use scrolls of Zeal."

Which everyone with the slighest amount of intelligence or interest in min-maxing would do, if such scrolls existed, which they don't becuse they would be insanely overpowered.

I used 1 feat and not 3 because the feat scarcity issues between fighter/monk/wizard and barb/ranger are very, very different .. one grou pget many extra bonus feats and often end up taking total garbage feats to fill in the slots. Especially now that twf is going to be choosable with monk class feat slots.

[Aspenor]

I never said that. I just indicated that it requires a large sacrifice.
I designed my halfling monk around the dragonmarks. 3 feats and 10 enhancement points are worth, to me, having Heal 5/rest.

Yet, most monk players would tell me that it's folly to give up things such as Improved Critical and Stunning Blow for heals.

Well, Improved Critical and Stunning Blow should never be on a monk's feat list. Spending a feat to improve your critical threat range from 20 to 19-20 is a waste when you can stun with handwraps nearly at-will. Stunning Blow shouldn't be taken because Stunning Fist is exceptionally more powerful and has a much higher DC.

[ddoer]

I rather like the idea. The healing dragon mark is a large investment in feats. What a way to make it pay off.

agree. for an halfling who has invested 3 feats in dragonmark, it isn't too overpowered to allow them to use heal scrolls. My own halfling dragonmark toon is a cleric so it doesn't benefit me at all.