Why the constant tinkering, Devs?

**TheJusticar** · 01-08-2010, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by isldur

Don't like it. It will make the game easier. Saves and durations ending effects are the easy button. Sure it would have been nice if they just fixed air elemental attacks.

O god forbid address ranged combat lol. No lets change something that wasn't needed or wanted (at least by me) No one needs healers in the taverns or potions. I'm sure blindness will be next, hopefully there is one dev fighting to keep at least this in.

Whats to fear from beholders now? Mind flayers more than likely have lost their respected place at certain levels as well. Just throw more and more mobs at us with lots of hit points....

Exactly. It bugs me royally. It's a game I learned to love because even though it veered off far from PnP rules it still provided a good challenge. I'm alarmed with all the tinkering in the three updates since Mod9. Dungeon Scaling (which I reckon can be avoided with full group), color-coded enemy fire, and bending the rules of the spells -- which as you say, it makes it easier. That was my whole motivation behind my OP. It's not casual hate, it's not newb hate, it's not elitism to be sure, it's the fact that they lowering the standards and difficulty to EVERYONE for the sake a particular group of players -- in this case the casuals and newbies. With all aids and nerfs and no death XP any player with two semi functional neurons can make it. As some have posted here, unless you brought your A game to your VERY first quest, dealing with Jacobi Drexelhand was something to reckon with. Now you can breeze through that tavern quest on elite with a Korthos untwinked lvl2 toons without any problem whatsoever -- ask the perma-deathers if you don't believe me.

I'm tempted to resurrect Parvo's request for a hard-core server. Doesn't have to be permadeath tho, just gimme the current game, sans all the gratuitous tinkering to game mechanics + friendly fire option.

Godspeed.

**eonfreon** · 01-09-2010, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoste

***Edit: gah...

Basically I was saying I think these changes (specifically the new difficulty level) has mostly to do with helping out less skilled players, and less to do with the other reasons. But just to be clear, that is my opinion; I didn't hear a Turbine employee put it that way.

Yes. I understand that that is your opinion. I was just saying that Core's post didn't have anything to do with your opinion.

He was addressing a person who defined himself as "casual" and who took offense that the new, easy mode was called "Casual".

He defined three ways to look at the word "Casual" as used in common MMO's. To quote him: "Some depend on how much you play, some on how good you are, and some on why you play. "
As he said, the poster he was talking to defined himself casual as "how much you play". And that Turbine didn't use that same definition.

He said nothing about Casual mode being for players that are less skilled or not. He did not go so far as to completely quantify what he meant, but he certainly didn't say that Turbine WASN'T making the game easier.

Not a big deal. But you were misinterpreting his post. Or to put it your way, you were putting words in his mouth.

**HumanJHawkins** · 01-09-2010, 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by Borror0

The problem with that line of reasoning is that immunities are bad for the game and saving throws not enough of a protection to avoid being CC'd too much unless you would like to homogenize all characters by forcing them into having high saving throws.

Your concern is only true if you believe that players shouldn't get pwned by mobs once in a while and need rescuing. There are probably only 20 to 30 quests in the whole game out of well more than 100 that have CC that poses a serious problem for zero-defense characters. And even then, they typically can beat their way through slowly.

The rest of the whole game is their playground where anyone who puts much of anything into defense is underpowered by comparison... You know, meaning it takes 4 seconds to win the average battle instead of 3.

I remember the days when PoP was not a walk in the park. I was part of a near party-wipe in the fire room. A balanced build pure pally guildie of mine bailed the entire thing out by taking down several fire ellies with his bow while we all watched from our ghosts. That's the kind of thing that makes the game fun. One day it is the high defense pally. The next day it might be the low defense Barb. There need to be things in the game that will pwn each kind of character, and give other types a chance to shine.

It will not be a good day when anyone can relatively easily get through any quest without serious trouble once in a while.

**Shassa** · 01-09-2010, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoste

For it to be a non-answer, I would have to avoid the question asked. I have however answered that. I said I dislike that it decreases the challenge and complexity (because players don't have to plan ahead as much anymore, like making sure they have FoM or whatever) of the game, or in other words makes it more boring.

I'm beginning to think you're purposely trolling. You're consistently putting words into my mouth, consistently "missing" people's points, and coming back with strawmen arguments.

***Edit: added emphasis for those who keep missing the same answer...again and again...

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them stupid, or a troll. Sorry.

You say the game will be more boring, okay. If you think fighting air elementals and worgs were exciting, then I don't know what to say. If you don't like the fact that an Easy setting makes it less complex for other people (because obviously you have the ability to avoid it altogether) then again, I don't know what to say. Except that we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Other than that, I think you should chill and drink a cold beer or something. Works for me.

**Shassa** · 01-09-2010, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by HumanJHawkins

Your concern is only true if you believe that players shouldn't get pwned by mobs once in a while and need rescuing. There are probably only 20 to 30 quests in the whole game out of well more than 100 that have CC that poses a serious problem for zero-defense characters. And even then, they typically can beat their way through slowly.

The rest of the whole game is their playground where anyone who puts much of anything into defense is underpowered by comparison... You know, meaning it takes 4 seconds to win the average battle instead of 3.

I remember the days when PoP was not a walk in the park. I was part of a near party-wipe in the fire room. A balanced build pure pally guildie of mine bailed the entire thing out by taking down several fire ellies with his bow while we all watched from our ghosts. That's the kind of thing that makes the game fun. One day it is the high defense pally. The next day it might be the low defense Barb. There need to be things in the game that will pwn each kind of character, and give other types a chance to shine.

It will not be a good day when anyone can relatively easily get through any quest without serious trouble once in a while.

This is another very well explained summary that I understand, but I don't completely agree with. I'm only singling out your post, Hawkins, because it's the most recent post that represents a lot of people's feelings against the change, while making some good points. I just want to lay out my position again, because I feel like I got derailed.

Basically, I'm saying two things. First, it's my opinion that it's unnecessary to demand that a different player with a different idea of what is fun and challenging to abide by your standards. I get that people like the challenge of the prospect of total wipes because some mobs are very dangerous. But not everyone feels the same way. Easy mode is for them, although they have to live with reduced xp, loot and favor as a penalty for doing so.

My second point is one that refers to the the idea that a tougher game produces a better type of player that are less likely to ruin your raid. This wasn't addressed by you specifically in your last post, Hawkins, but it may be one that you agree with. Regardless, I really think this threat has been massively overstated at best, and is groundless at worst. As has been stated before, I think people in general are not as stupid as a lot of people are making them out to be, and will not go assuming that since they can solo Easy that they are then ready to bring the house down in your Epic-level raid.

To reiterate, I do understand where the anxiety with the changes lay, and I do get why many people thrive on the challenge and the on-the-edge-of-readiness exhiliration one feels in a tense situation. I enjoyed Everquest in the early days, and you don't get much more challenging or tense than that. In fact, some of the most wildly entertaining stories I have from playing MMOs has to do with complete wipes of fifty people. But again, not everyone feels that way, and no one is forcing anyone to play Easy mode. Of the universal changes that were made concerning CC abilities and other such situations where people can be made totally helpless were toned down a bit, if one feels it makes the game less challenging then I understand but I think there are better ways to challenge people than to frustrate them in this manner.

**rezo** · 01-09-2010, 04:08 AM

You mean tinkering like the " Borror0 " combat Nerf???? lol

**Favis** · 01-09-2010, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoste

Taking down duration of crowd control and debuff spells, specifically when used against players...and you can't see how that's making the game easier?

Agreeing with Ghoste.

A better way would be if the didn't change the CC spells effect for (hard) elit and epic.

And letting the "diminished duration against players" work on solo, casual, normal and (hard).

My greates concern is that they will doing the game generaly more weak at CC.
That would make it much more booring as CC is one of the fun things in game.
It also give more variation as it gives one more dimension from the "classic MMO" setting healer, def-Tank and DPS.

**Ghoste** · 01-09-2010, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Shassa

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them stupid, or a troll. Sorry.

Oh, I agree. Is that why you wrote your so called "summary" the way you did, in a mocking and completely misleading way?

I have been very clear that the issue is not you disagreeing. The issue is you constantly misrepresenting other people's stances, as you are yet again doing. And you haven't been just slightly missing their points either, you've been consistently doing it in a way to belittle and mock them. Your so called "summary" is an absolute farce, and you knew so when you wrote it, despite your mock attempts to play innocent after wards.

I was quite clear about why I think you are trolling. Quite clear. And yet you come back with this nonsense? Is that not pretty much solid confirmation that you are trolling?

**Failedlegend** · 01-09-2010, 08:37 AM