Why the constant tinkering, Devs?

[Ghoste]

I dont know why anyone is surprised,there is a history in this

I don't think it's a matter of surprise. It's more along the lines of "Dammit! Not again!"

[Corebreach]

On top of all that the new "Casual" setting kinda ****es me off. if you want to make a dificulty thats lower than normal, shouldnt you call it easy? I AM A CASUAL PLAYER. being casual dosnt mean i suck at playing,. it just means i dont play all day every day. instead of doing 200 elite quests a day,. ill do maybe 5 a week,. but i still do everyhting on elite!(and it is still easy),... I'm a casual player, and i think the game is way too easy!

There are many definitions of "casual" in the context of games. Some depend on how much you play, some on how good you are, and some on why you play. You're using the first. Turbine isn't.

[Shassa]

To say he, and those who share his opinion, actually want to chase people away from the game, is simply asinine.

Flattery will get you nowhere with me, honestly!

Really, if you haven't heard the comments of "dont make these changes, I don't want the WoW crowd ruining my game" then I think you've been selective of your reading. If your priority is to toughen people up and to keep things complicated over widening your audience, then yes you are voting for game failure to achieve your own ends whether you choose to put it in those words or not.

P.S. Must you insult everyone who disagrees with you? This doesn't help to prove your points any.

[quickgrif]

Oberon, dude, Dreamning Dark was just one example of how easy the game has become.

aperntly u want a better example? yes?

i forget what lvl the quests in the vale are but there like 14 or so maybe 15, the cap was 16 when it came out. ok i did all of those quests normal, hard, and elite, on a lvl 11 fighter,. NO HEALER, 3 man party.

should i repeat it, 3 lvl 11 toons,. all the vale quests on elite,. NO HEALER

this is a second example of how easy the game has become, i can give u more examples but im already sick of typing.

The over abundance of consumables helps in this case and has nothing to do with how easy a quest is.
Quest A with no or limited consumables becomes hard as hell.
Quest A with plenty of consumables becomes a cakewalk.
Plus for us players who have run long enough to twink our char with superior gear at current lvl they become easier.

Heck before the scaling I soloed the content in the Vale. Superior equipment + plenty of consumables= much easier than someone at same level without running it the first time.

[Ghoste]

There are many definitions of "casual" in the context of games. Some depend on how much you play, some on how good you are, and some on why you play. You're using the first. Turbine isn't.

They're not? The casual setting does not help people who are not better players? I think you need to re-read the release notes, or clarify you comment if that is not what you meant.

[Ghoste]

Flattery will get you nowhere with me, honestly!

Really, if you haven't heard the comments of "dont make these changes, I don't want the WoW crowd ruining my game" then I think you've been selective of your reading. If your priority is to toughen people up and to keep things complicated over widening your audience, then yes you are voting for game failure to achieve your own ends whether you choose to put it in those words or not.

P.S. Must you insult everyone who disagrees with you? This doesn't help to prove your points any.

And you bring up the point without evening knowing it. The point being made is not about the people, not about the game they play, but the impact on the game.

Of course you have a point that the number of people playing will also have an impact on development and how long the game survives, but what's the point in keeping it alive if it sucks?

My issue is not to disagree with you about whether that point is correct or incorrect. I was simply pointing out that your summary of that position was incorrect, not your opinion of it.

And I stand by my statement that your summary was an asinine attempt. Pout and call it an insult if you will, but let's at least be clear that I'm not talking about your opinion. I'm talking about your half baked attempt to summarize someone elses.

[quickgrif]

And you bring up the point without evening knowing it. The point being made is not about the people, not about the game they play, but the impact on the game.

Of course you have a point that the number of people playing will also have an impact on development and how long the game survives, but what's the point in keeping it alive if it sucks?

My issue is not to disagree with you about whether that point is correct or incorrect. I was simply pointing out that your summary of that position was incorrect, not your opinion of it.

And I stand by my statement that your summary was an asinine attempt. Pout and call it an insult if you will, but let's at least be clear that I'm not talking about your opinion. I'm talking about your half baked attempt to summarize someone elses.

She generalized but in essence there are older players out there that object to just about any major change to the game.

[eonfreon]

Don't really know if I should bother, but what the heck.

Originally Posted by Corebreach
There are many definitions of "casual" in the context of games. Some depend on how much you play, some on how good you are, and some on why you play. You're using the first. Turbine isn't.

They're not? The casual setting does not help people who are not better players? I think you need to re-read the release notes, or clarify you comment if that is not what you meant.

I'm pretty sure the first definition in that line is "some depend on how much you play" not "some on how good you play".

So Core was saying that the person in the post he quoted was defining himself by that first definition which is likely not the definition Turbine was using. As you say, Turbine is likely using the second definition.

Hope that helps.

[Shassa]

And you bring up the point without evening knowing it. The point being made is not about the people, not about the game they play, but the impact on the game.

But people's largest complaint with the impact it will have on the game... is about the new people.
Because otherwise these changes have little impact for those who raid or do Elites/Epics in statics or guilds.
C'mon, tell me you haven't seen "keep the noobs away" comments twenty times between multiple threads by now.

I think that you're being a bit disingenous by claiming it's all about the integrity of the game. Fine, I'll take you for your word, I believe that's how you feel about it, kind sir. But that's not what I'm hearing up and down a bunch of these threads. Some have been respectful about it and some have been insulting, but either way this is what's on people's minds.

[Ghoste]

She generalized but in essence there are older players out there that object to just about any major change to the game.

And this right here is an example of attempting to sincerely summarize a point of view. I may agree with the opinion being summarized, or I may disagree with it.

What I was saying would apply to you as well, quickgrif, had you said something more like this: "there are older players out there that object to just about any major change to the game, because they want the game to fail."

But you didn't say that last part because you were actually trying to summarize an opinion, whereasShassa was belittling via misrepresentation. Please, belittle the opinion that your summarizing, if you must. But do try to at least keep your focus on the "summary" part.

[Ghoste]

But people's largest complaint with the impact it will have on the game... is about the new people.

Not quite. Rather an expression of resentment that it (what they dislike) is being done for them (the new players). But you still missed the point of why they resent what is being done for the new players. Put that in your summary, and I'll agree that it is at least an opinionated summary. But right now, it is not even that much.

I think that you're being a bit disingenous by claiming it's all about the integrity of the game.

Really? Keep in mind the matter of magnitude, and that I'm not saying it is destroying the game to such a huge magnitude that it will end the game now. But I am sincerely saying that it will decrease my own personal enjoyment. I'm not saying the magnitude to which this decrease will occur, merely the direction. Take a look at my videos and you'll see I enjoy challenge. Take a look at perma death guilds, and you'll see I'm not the only one who is, in fact, being quite genuine about this. The fact that you miss that is more a commentary on your "summary" than on what I have said.

***2nd edit***if you're still not convinced, ask around on the Argo server. You'll find that I am quite actively engaged in, and have been for a long time, training players to be better players. I put a lot of time and effort into it. Why? Not the only reason, but certainly a part is that i revel in the complexity of this game, and the challenge, and love seeing people rise up to overcome the challenges that were once holding them back. Just search for threads started recently by Kistilan and you'll find reference to the fact that I have taken many PuGs through the titan raid successfully, where I was the only player in the group who had ever successfully completed it before. You can find a thread started by me about training newer players to up the level of their strategy and tactics.

But ya, you're right, maybe I'm really being quite in-genuine here...

[Shassa]

But I am sincerely saying that it will decrease my own personal enjoyment. I'm not saying the magnitude to which this decrease will occur, merely the direction. Take a look at my videos and you'll see I enjoy challenge. Take a look at perma death guilds, and you'll see I'm not the only one who is, in fact, being quite genuine about this. The fact that you miss that is more a commentary on your "summary" than on what I have said.

Again, I really don't get what your problem is with the changes. You have these lukewarm positions like, "I'm not saying it's not changing for the worse, I'm just saying it's changing" and "It changes the game but only a little". Then you kind of go off on tangents arguing about semantics and such.

*Shakes the Tin Man*

What point are you trying to prove, man?? I mean, machine. THESE AUTOMATONS BECAME THE WAAAAARFOOOOORGED.

I mean seriously, okay so you like challenges, you like Permadeath, great! I'm glad you enjoy that. Your chance of that nasty Worg in Tangleroot cheaply destroying you became a little less. No longer will Feeblemind necessitate you to go backtrack through half of Menechtarun or chug an expensive potion. The bad part is... what. Speaking just for yourself, please explain to me what your specific problem is with these game changes and how they make your game playing experience less pleasurable.

*Edit to your edit* I never said your claims of challenge seeking or willingness to be a good mentor was disingenuous. I said that characterizing the majority dissenting opinion as "It's not about the new players coming up, it's about the integrity of the game system" is being disingenuous. I believe that reading through the threads on this will support my viewpoint.

[Ghoste]

Again, I really don't get what your problem is with the changes. You have these lukewarm positions like, "I'm not saying it's not changing for the worse, I'm just saying it's changing" and "It changes the game but only a little". Then you kind of go off on tangents arguing about semantics and such.

Fail again on the summary.

I'm saying worse. I'm clearly saying that. You really don't get that? Where I am purposely getting vague is on the matter of how much worse. To sum that up, I'm not going to cry over the changes, but I do want to take the opportunity to give Turbine something to read about why I feel that way. "Luke warm" would in fact be an accurate term to describe my own feelings about magnitude, but absolutely not the case when discussing my feelings about the direction.

The tangents about semantics have been the direct results of people mis-reading, or or projecting false definitions into my statements, and surprise surprise, they're getting a different meaning out of what was meant to be a very clear statement. Comment after comment of other people interpreting my posts about direction into a meaning of magnitude. Here's a little tip: don't interpret, just read.

Did I say I like perma death? Are you sure? You're doing it again!

[Shassa]

And again, a complete non-answer. Arguing about an argument. What is it... that you don't like. I don't care about the magnitude, your assessment of my assessments, all these trails that lead to that one corner of the Orchard that no one goes to. I can't help but think you're evading my question because you simply don't have a good answer.

What is it about these changes that make your gaming less enjoyable.

[eonfreon]

Tinkering with the game annoys me too, but the fact that it occurs is an indication that the Devs are still working on the game. That they still have ideas on how to balance it.
Some changes make certain aspects of the game easier, some make certain aspects of the game harder.

Nerfing Con stat damagers awhile back and transmuting made the game harder for certain builds and required some players to have to search for new weapons for bypassing DR.
Grazing Hits made the game harder for AC builds who relied on being unhittable on any roll besides a 20.
PK nerf and removal of scrolls such as FW made the game harder for some casters.

On the flip side, Curses not being permanent has made it easier on the "unprepared" (which generally translates to folks who didn't know about curses or forgot to restock on remove curse pots).

No more Xp death penalty made it far easier to play the game without stressing about dying.

It's all been a balancing act.
And that's what it will continue to be, as long as there is life to the game.

[Ghoste]

And again, a complete non-answer. Arguing about an argument. What is it... that you don't like. I don't care about the magnitude, your assessment of my assessments, all these trails that lead to that one corner of the Orchard that no one goes to. I can't help but think you're evading my question because you simply don't have a good answer.

What is it about these changes that make your gaming less enjoyable.

For it to be a non-answer, I would have to avoid the question asked. I have however answered that. I said I dislike that it decreases the challenge and complexity (because players don't have to plan ahead as much anymore, like making sure they have FoM or whatever) of the game, or in other words makes it more boring.

I'm beginning to think you're purposely trolling. You're consistently putting words into my mouth, consistently "missing" people's points, and coming back with strawmen arguments.

***Edit: added emphasis for those who keep missing the same answer...again and again...

[Ghoste]

Hope that helps.

***Edit: gah...

Basically I was saying I think these changes (specifically the new difficulty level) has mostly to do with helping out less skilled players, and less to do with the other reasons. But just to be clear, that is my opinion; I didn't hear a Turbine employee put it that way.

[Kistilan]

Here's a bunch.








K, there. WikiTroll and IncorrectOpinionTrolls both fed today - my job is done.

Well done.

[Ghoste]

mispost

[isldur]

Don't like it. It will make the game easier. Saves and durations ending effects are the easy button. Sure it would have been nice if they just fixed air elemental attacks.

O god forbid address ranged combat lol. No lets change something that wasn't needed or wanted (at least by me) No one needs healers in the taverns or potions. I'm sure blindness will be next, hopefully there is one dev fighting to keep at least this in.

Whats to fear from beholders now? Mind flayers more than likely have lost their respected place at certain levels as well. Just throw more and more mobs at us with lots of hit points....