Why the constant tinkering, Devs?

[eonfreon]

Hey eonfreon. They're dumbing it down just a teensey little bit. Have I dumbed that statement down enough for you?

Don't put words in my mouth. If you can't separate definition from vague implications, then I've got some colorful words to put in your mouth as well.

I didn't put words in your mouth. I simply said what it sounds like to me.
Is that clearer? Shall I dumb it down more for you?

[Zzevel]

We liked DDO because it was different, more mature-ish...


... now your slogan should be "DDO, even a WOW-tard can do it..."

[Shassa]

So you're saying the changes don't make it any easier in any situations for anybody? That's fine, say it. But I've grown tired of talking to people who are incapable of separating in their minds the definitions of magnitude and direction. So go find somebody else to talk to.

That's not what I said, no. And no need to get testy.

I've gone back and reread your posts just to make sure I was on the same page. The more I've read though, the more confused I get. What point are you trying to make now, that it changes the game? Well yeah, I honestly don't see a counterpoint to that effect anywhere... I must be interpreting people's posts a little differently or something.

To sum up: new direction yes, earth-shattering not really, positive yes, dumbing down not at all.
That's all I'm saying. I won't persue the matter any further, I'm not trying to prove a point, just expressing my opinion.

[oberon131313]

Devs,

I have to wonder why all the tinkering with game mechanics and dynamics since the release of Mod9. The game was mostly ok as it was with some glaring issues (that, btw, have NOT been addressed at all) and a dire lack of content.

In your opinion. I personally feel that elemental pinball was one of those glaring issues, and now we have a solution that makes a bit of sense, from a gameplay perspective (as opposed to a "based in reality" perspective)

So, ok, good or bad you've added more content with each update, cool there.

Thus addressing your first gripe.

You've added "re-spec" options, cool there as well. Now, why are you trying to make this game easier? Color coding enemy fire, "casual" setting, changing the duration of CC spells for no real reason, changing the nature of spells for no real reason, adding mechanics that will probably cause certain end-game raid to be very hard to put a group together, etc.

wait, which is it, you've got this list of things that are "making the game easier" yet complaining about something being more difficult at the same time? Now, I've read through all of the thread, and I've seen the silly debate that's been raging, and I understand scope vs. magnitude and all that jazz, but what "the other side" fails to see is that these changes really are tiny. Diminishing Returns are a standard in most MMOs, because they effectively address balance issues, when implemented correctly. Does the fact that feeblemind now has a timer mean really anything?

That's what I don't get. This constant tinkering causes more confusion than anything else. You are gearing this game to the "casuals" (I mean the writing is on the wall, right?) but you are forgetting that you also have a large player base that play this game for hours/day and have done so for years. A "causual" player won't be following the forums and looking out for changes in the release notes so in a way it kind of defeats the purpose.

The problem with the "a casual player won't even read these" is that the changes aren't being made to wave around, they are actually to serve a purpose. You assume that the Devs make these changes so that some F2P player will come by and go "oh that's cool, just what I always wanted," but in fact, the changes are made so that every player has the potential for a more enjoyable experience. Now the fact that some players' toes are getting stepped upon is inevitable, but to those that feel that way, I ask, is the long-term, continued success of the game really not worth your personal "fun factor?" Does the fact that feeblemind may cause less players to /ragequit really ruin the game for you?

Please stop the tinkering.

Godspeed.

How fast is Godspeed, exactly? Faster or slower than the speed of light?

[JGil128]

OK, here is my take on it.

Apparently the Devs are making the game easier. the game was already easy. the new Dreaming dark quest are lvl 19-20 right? then why can i SOLO it on my lvl 18 wizard???

the game is already getting too easy at cretain points and if you make it any more easy to play, then why the hell would i want to play a game where i automaticly win and never have to actualy try?

On top of all that the new "Casual" setting kinda ****es me off. if you want to make a dificulty thats lower than normal, shouldnt you call it easy? I AM A CASUAL PLAYER. being casual dosnt mean i suck at playing,. it just means i dont play all day every day. instead of doing 200 elite quests a day,. ill do maybe 5 a week,. but i still do everyhting on elite!(and it is still easy),... I'm a casual player, and i think the game is way too easy!

There are the new EPIC dificulty lvls which are cool, but it has goten to the point where that is the only challenge in the game right now, and almost noone wants to do them because of how much of a resource drain it is.

What casual players need isnt easier quests, its easier grouping. If i get on with limited time i dont wanna waste it doing something that is absolutly no challenge what so ever.

I think these new changes will make more people able to get to higher lvls without actualy earning it,. like the rest of us have been doin for the last,. what 3 or 4 years?
Thats exactly what we dont need,. people who have no idea what there doin (who think the game is too hard?) thinkin they can play on the same lvl as people who think the game is too easy.

[Ghoste]

I was discussing magnitude from the beginning.

I know that's what you meant, but that's not what you've been saying. The issue is using arguments about magnitude to come to the conclusion that they are not going in a direction. While I admit the first post of mine that you commented on may have been an exaggeration of the magnitude, you still made the conclusion that there was no direction.

Does not apply, here. Turbine has four difficulty settings which means it wants to appeal to several types of players.

They are in fact moving in a direction of appealing to a lower common denominator, if not the lowest (again, an exaggeration using superlative).

Your next post was pretty explicitly saying they're not dumbing it down at all.

Of course. Though, they have not done that so that is not applicable either.

Next post, you ask for an example of how things have been dumbed down for all difficulty settings. You didn't ask someone to explain how much, but just whether or not they were being dumbed down. So a question of direction, although you now claim you were speaking of magnitude.

Next post, you reply to Cyr with the first hints of beginning to talk about magnitude instead of direction. But then you go back to responding to someone who was talking about direction using semantics to try to cloud the fact that there is in fact a direction going on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyr
I don't think that a majority of the player base is power gamers who love epic or noobs who can't tie their shoes without an instructional video.

Of course not but I think it's fair to say that a good part is either powergamers who should love Epic (if it was better designed) or new players/very casual players that are far less skilled than us veterans (either for lack of experience or because they are just less skilled players, period) and might need a better learning curve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gol
Here's a bunch.

Most of those can be interpreted as balancing, reducing tedium or clearer information.

Then you respond to a post by me that is speaking specifically about whether there is a direction. A post that is not trying to discuss magnitude at all, and that's the point where you finally begin clearly talking about magnitude. Although at that point it still seems clear the person you're talking to is not talking about magnitude.

Shall i go on?

[Borror0]

Ghoste, I have also made posts where I have mitigated my position after - to clarify it. If replied to those posts "about direction", it was because of what they implied about the magnitude: they clearly believe that the magnitude is large enough to warrant complaints and reverts.

Shrugging off the CC changes as simple balancing doesn't change the fact that they made a host of enemy effect easier to deal with on every difficulty level.

It does not, but it does not really make a big difference that they did in most cases.

Beholders and air elementals might be the only two cases where they will be a significant difference, but the fight will also most likely be more fun so it's a win even if the game "became easier". It's certainly not grave enough to start a thread and complain about it, which is my

And before update 3 they made changes to make it easier to handle stat dmg and negative levels by having them disappear over time.

Less tedious and permanent does not mean easier. I still carry Lesser Restoration potions, you?

It will no longer be a big deal to be unprepared to deal with Curse, Feeblemind, Mummy Rot, or Fear

I disagree. It might not be as much of a big deal as before, but it'll still make a good difference. It means that, for 60s+20s*caster_level or 60s+10s*caster_level, you're offering a reduced or no contribution no your party. If the quest is any difficult, it might end up costing victory. It's certainly not "an opportunity for a bio break" as you later mention.

I am surprised that Blindness wasn't on the list, was that an oversight??

I was surprised as well.

But it does remove the value of Stone to Flesh. Another marginally useless spell that has shifted to totally useless.

I'm off the mind that DDO needs more spells and that Turbine should try to make some spells more desirable, but I won't cry over Stone to Flesh becoming less useful. I don't see many situations where Stone to Flesh could be a particularly fun spell. However, I can easily conceive many situations where being stuck with Flesh to Stone can be unfun.

[oberon131313]

Apparently the Devs are making the game easier. the game was already easy. the new Dreaming dark quest are lvl 19-20 right? then why can i SOLO it on my lvl 18 wizard???

that is a design flaw with those quests, that doesn't mean the entire game is too easy.

[Ghoste]

That's not what I said, no. And no need to get testy.

I've gone back and reread your posts just to make sure I was on the same page. The more I've read though, the more confused I get. What point are you trying to make now, that it changes the game? Well yeah, I honestly don't see a counterpoint to that effect anywhere... I must be interpreting people's posts a little differently or something.

To sum up: new direction yes, earth-shattering not really, positive yes, dumbing down not at all.
That's all I'm saying. I won't persue the matter any further, I'm not trying to prove a point, just expressing my opinion.

Yes. He and I began discussing direction. It now seems he intended to discuss magnitude, not direction, but apparently his fingers got away on him.

Sounds like you and I mostly agree, except for the definition of "dumbing down", because the rest of your post is contrary to saying "dumbing down not at all".

Does it help you get the point if I say dumbing down only 1 IQ point as opposed to 30 or 50 or 70 or...?

And just to make it a bit easier for you, here's a proper definition:

Verb phrase 10. dumb down, Informal. to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated: to dumb down a textbook; American movies have dumbed down.

Notice how that definition does not contain any indication of magnitude, only direction? If you are projecting magnitude onto that term, let's at least be clear that's what is happening?

[Ghoste]

Ghoste, I have also made posts where I have mitigated my position after - to clarify it. If replied to those posts "about direction", it was because of what they implied about the magnitude: they clearly believe that the magnitude is large enough to warrant complaints and reverts.

Clarity of language is a virtue. If you want to talk about magnitude, do so. If you want to talk about direction, do so. Do not expect me to read your mind, and do not presume I will do likewise.

While I do feel it is a bad thing, you will get a lot further with me in a discussion addressing that point. I have read over your responses, and knowing your assumptions and presumptions in retrospect does in fact clarify to me what you were trying to get at. The problem is you were merely trying, not doing.

[Ghoste]

I didn't put words in your mouth. I simply said what it sounds like to me.
Is that clearer? Shall I dumb it down more for you?

You didn't? Well let's take a look at the definition of putting words into somebody's mouth, shall we?

put words in (to) someone's mouthFig. to interpret what someone said so that the words mean what you want and not what the speaker wanted.

I've posted the definition. When you say "to me...", you're making your own definition, which add an implication of magnitude that simply isn't there, projecting that assumption of implication onto me, then ask if that's clearer?

You've said that you had your own meaning, from your own mind, not what I wrote, that you applied to what I wrote, and followed that up by saying you're not putting words in my mouth?

Do I need to post a definition of clearer for you as well? If I do, I bet you already know it won't contain any clause about mind reading.

[HumanJHawkins]

I guess that one man's "balancing" is another man's "dumbing down".

Put me squarely in the "balancing" camp. I thought the changes to mob CC abilities is a great one and, if this is the first time it's been addressed, I should think long overdue. Most games have an immunity timer for a particular kind of CC that prevents a player from being tied down more-or-less permanently. <cut>

This game already had that. It was called by various names including "saving throws", "Immunity Items" and "Pally Levels". You see, any player who spent more than a few hours in game could learn to build a character that could avoid the vast majority of fear, curse, etc. effects.

This would often lead to that player being in group with a Barbarian and a Cleric. The barbarian would start chiding the player about his lack of DPS, as the Cleric's mana melted away healing and removing curses on the Barb.

But inevitably, that same trio would end up in a quest with a lot of casters. And the barbarian would get held, or commanded, or something, allowing the other character to clean up and carry stones to the shrine. This was called balance.

It allowed each type of melle toon to chide the other at different times. And it allowed Clerics to put things in their Bios like "Don't complain that I suck as a healer until you stop sucking as a combatant." (for all those who had not yet learned about saves or pally levels, etc.)

But it seems now that the well rounded character has once again taken it on the chin. Enemy casters have been nerfed. chances of saving doubled or tripled. Timers shortened to where a quick AFK will cure you of anything.

It may be time to greater reincarnate all melee toons as naked Warforged 2 rogue / 18 Barbs, mini-maxed for STR and CON.

[JGil128]

Oberon, dude, Dreamning Dark was just one example of how easy the game has become.

aperntly u want a better example? yes?

i forget what lvl the quests in the vale are but there like 14 or so maybe 15, the cap was 16 when it came out. ok i did all of those quests normal, hard, and elite, on a lvl 11 fighter,. NO HEALER, 3 man party.

should i repeat it, 3 lvl 11 toons,. all the vale quests on elite,. NO HEALER

this is a second example of how easy the game has become, i can give u more examples but im already sick of typing.

[Borror0]

This game already had that. It was called by various names including "saving throws", "Immunity Items" and "Pally Levels".

The problem with that line of reasoning is that immunities are bad for the game and saving throws not enough of a protection to avoid being CC'd too much unless you would like to homogenize all characters by forcing them into having high saving throws.

[Shassa]

Okay, let me summarize the position of everyone who is against this "tinkering" and "dumbing-down".
Critique me if you will, but this is what I'm hearing from a significant portion of you:

***

Dear Turbine:

I've been playing this game for a long time and enjoy how it was more complex and challenging than other games. I liked how complicated it is in many areas, partly because it's that inaccessibility that keeps the noobs away, you know, the WoW crowd. You may want to bring more people in, but me, I just don't want to be bothered with all these noobcakes. I'm above all that.

I also resent that after doing many things the hard, tedious, grindy way that the new players don't have to now go through the same hell I did. It's not fair that they get to enjoy parts of the game that I really suffered through. Besides, if they don't go through the same butt-kicking gauntlets I had to run through then they will not learn what they're doing and mess up my raid.

So in the end, I much rather preferred being able to boast about how more complex and beginner-unfriendly my game was over yours, even if it meant seeing the game population continue to shrivel and eventually go under. Play my way or play a different game. And no, I won't share my quest, the quest giver is right behind you for chrissake.

***

Okay, the last part was for comedic effect, but do I have that pretty much correct?

[oberon131313]

Oberon, dude, Dreamning Dark was just one example of how easy the game has become.

aperntly u want a better example? yes?

i forget what lvl the quests in the vale are but there like 14 or so maybe 15, the cap was 16 when it came out. ok i did all of those quests normal, hard, and elite, on a lvl 11 fighter,. NO HEALER, 3 man party.

should i repeat it, 3 lvl 11 toons,. all the vale quests on elite,. NO HEALER

this is a second example of how easy the game has become, i can give u more examples but im already sick of typing.

feats like that have always been possible, since the game came out. It didn't happen as much, sure, because plat wasn't as abundant, but the potential has ALWAYS been there.

[eonfreon]

You didn't? Well let's take a look at the definition of putting words into somebody's mouth, shall we?I've posted the definition. When you say "to me...", you're making your own definition, which add an implication of magnitude that simply isn't there, projecting that assumption of implication onto me, then ask if that's clearer?

You've said that you had your own meaning, from your own mind, not what I wrote, that you applied to what I wrote, and followed that up by saying you're not putting words in my mouth?

Do I need to post a definition of clearer for you as well? If I do, I bet you already know it won't contain any clause about mind reading.

Wow, what a meaningless rant.

[Creddi]

We liked DDO because it was different, more mature-ish...


... now your slogan should be "DDO, even a WOW-tard can do it..."

If that *wasn't* already true, there would be no zerging.

[Ghoste]

but do I have that pretty much correct?

No. Either way you change the game, on a spectrum of easy to hard, some people will like it, some will not. This thread began with one expressing his discomfort that it may be going in the wrong direction. To say he, and those who share his opinion, actually want to chase people away from the game, is simply asinine. He, and those who share his opinion, are simply asking to leave that slider alone, or maybe even move it the other way. Moving it too far in the easy direction will also result in a game that a lot of people will leave. So if you are saying one side is trying to drive players away, but the other isn't, aren't you missing the whole point of the thread? Kind of hard to sum it up without even including the most important point, isn't it?

[Naash]

I dont know why anyone is surprised,there is a history in this game of removing consequences.
Regenerating XP death penalty.
Removing XP death penalty.
Regenerating health in all public instances.
Shrines resetting.
Regenerating stat damage.
Regenerating lost levels.
Grazing hits.
And now nerfing debuffs and crowd control spells/effects and adding an immunity to sources that are spamming those effects.

Since I TR'd a character I've witnessed an apalling amount of new players that are either clueless on how to be self sufficient or just dont care,this will make things worse.
Got cursed? Need a lesser restoration? Enfeebled? Etc. Etc.
Right now the new blood are not buying potions for anything ,instead whining to the cleric to fix their problems or just running around with the affliction until the next shrine.

Why not;
Fix the monsters spamming cc/debuffs to use a more varied spell list.
Make the curative potions cheaper and perhaps a tutorial on some of them in Korthos.
Make these changes zone specific,restricted to Korthos and the Marketplace and leave the higher level zones and spells as is.