Why the constant tinkering, Devs?

[Borror0]

I don't think that a majority of the player base is power gamers who love epic or noobs who can't tie their shoes without an instructional video.

Of course not but I think it's fair to say that a good part is either powergamers who should love Epic (if it was better designed) or new players/very casual players that are far less skilled than us veterans (either for lack of experience or because they are just less skilled players, period) and might need a better learning curve.

Here's a bunch.

Most of those can be interpreted as balancing, reducing tedium or clearer information.

[Dirac]

Excellent post, Gol. That stuff is kinda hard to miss for those who actually read it though.

I have read it and I don't understand your or Gol's point of view at all. While many spells are affected, the only substantive changes I can see is air elemental's knockdown (and to a lesser degree, wolf's) and spells that create inconvenience due to their duration (mind flayer domination, flesh to stone). The first was overpowered from the beginning and a fix is long overdue. The second may make things harder, due to players' reliance on these spells in many quests.

Gol also re-posts the buff to Monks, some fluff changes, and fixing chain lighting. This appears to not have any point to the discussion whatsoever, as they do not affect the general difficulty of any quest in any way.

[suitepotato]

So reduced flesh to stone time on monsters is a game weakening thing how? It makes it easier how?

NOW you cannot ignore the stoned giants at Prey on the Hunter and MUST take them out right away while they are immobilized, during which time you are subject to the dragon blowing you across the cavern AND the unstoned giants whomping all over you. It's no longer a matter of destroying them at your leisure. They just made flesh to stone less useful and more critical to use with your next minute actions firmly in mind.

Some of the effects shortened were irrelevant or merely annoying to begin with. Ghoul touch? Please. Feeblemind when your cleric will fix you or you can get a heal-removal from the store?

Anyone notice that the monsters are dispelling buffs way more often now? I'm seeing my barkskin gone in seconds in some dungeons and if not for combat expertise, I'd be whittled down long before getting halfway through the instance. End game is especially more critical now to watch as your buff removal and overt debuffs are piling up and the monsters still have unlimited mana and your casters are running through theirs too darn fast on hard or elite, and even normal sometimes.

Overall, the game remains stacked against players, especially as difficulty goes up. Shroud elite is and will remain something most pugs won't pull off to say nothing of ToD Epic whenever that happens. You want hard, run naked with a +1 dagger through the blood crypt series. All they did was give a few conciliatory adjustments which won't do anything serious overall. Getting to 20 for new people who play casually will still be a challenge unless they are in that top tier of gamers who do everything naturally wonderfully.

For those who find everything too easy, go do the Mensa puzzles.

[Ghoste]

Taking down duration of crowd control and debuff spells, specifically when used against players...and you can't see how that's making the game easier?

Calling it just balance is playing antics with semantics. It is clearly making it easier to survive encounters with monsters who use these spells. You can call it fluffity-foo-mcfooferoo if you want, it still amounts to the exact same thing as "dumbing it down".

[Borror0]

Taking down duration of crowd control and debuff spells, specifically when used against players...and you can't see how that's making the game easier?

No. I still have Freedom of Movements, do I?

A lot of the changes reduce tedium (like waiting several minutes after the right is over for someone to get out of Flesh to Stone) but does not really make the game much easier.

[Ghoste]

fluffity-foo-mcfooferoo fluffity-foo-mcfooferoo fluffity-foo-mcfooferoo fluffity-foo-mcfooferoo fluffity-foo-mcfooferoo fluffity-foo-mcfooferoo

You really think so?

[TheJusticar]

Taking down duration of crowd control and debuff spells, specifically when used against players...and you can't see how that's making the game easier?

Calling it just balance is playing antics with semantics. It is clearly making it easier to survive encounters with monsters who use these spells. You can call it fluffity-foo-mcfooferoo if you want, it still amounts to the exact same thing as "dumbing it down".

Ghoste, I'm beginning to think this is exactly what Borr wants. A semantics war. When he frames an argument for these changes other than using classic trolling techniques, then I'll engage in discussion again. Until then he can troll all he wants.

[Ghoste]

Ghoste, I'm beginning to think this is exactly what Borr wants. A semantics war. When he frames an argument for these changes other than using classic trolling techniques, then I'll engage in discussion again. Until then he can troll all he wants.

You're not wrong. The only case he has made so far, is just trying to change his own personal definition of certain terms, then puzzle over why we don't speak his own made up version of English with his substituted definitions.

[LordMond]

I guess that one man's "balancing" is another man's "dumbing down".

Put me squarely in the "balancing" camp. I thought the changes to mob CC abilities is a great one and, if this is the first time it's been addressed, I should think long overdue. Most games have an immunity timer for a particular kind of CC that prevents a player from being tied down more-or-less permanently. You could still do so if you had multiple forms of CC (I'm thinking DAoC here) but the player or the mob would get a new save versus each form (or could Purge forms that had taken hold). But Mythic very early on implemented timers that prevented one from being chain-stunned and the game improved as a result. Looks like Turbine came to the same conclusion, albeit perhaps a bit belatedly. For myself, I see absolutely nothing fun in being knocked down repeatedly by an air elemental or tripped repeatedly by a worg with almost no chance to recover and fight back (I might can pass one balance check from one warg attacking me but six checks from six wargs is another matter).

As for the criticism of the new "casual" difficulty, please bear in mind that the loot and xp are reduced, probably significantly, for completing the quest on that difficulty so those of you/us who completed the quest on Hard or Elite are in no way affected by the change. You got your higher xp award and loot for completing the quest on more difficult settings. My guess here is that the devs are responding to players who, because they were not able to complete at least some quests even when their character was at a much higher level as compared to the quest or perhaps played at odd times and could not find groups for some quests, were missing out on parts of the game. Again, how does that affect players who did not have such problems? I just cannot see that it does.

But not all is "sweetness and light". The devs gave no 'lubbin' to the part of the game that I find most appalling: the Auction House. Why it has been allowed to languish in such a deplorably bad state for years is a mystery to me. STILL no searchable feature? ARGH! Maybe, though, there is some light at the end of that particular tunnel. One of the notes in the update mentioned that you will now be able to link item stats in the in-game message channels, presumably (let's hope) the Trade channel. Here's hoping that that is a precursor to a search feature in the AH.

[Borror0]

If Borroro fails to see how this changes are dumbing down the game and how they affect ALL difficulties his fanboi-ism is beyond hope.

**** right. Tell him boy! I hate that Borror0 guy too. He is such a fanboi and never criticizes Turbine, ever!

[Zenako]

I guess that one man's "balancing" is another man's "dumbing down".

..

As for the criticism of the new "casual" difficulty, please bear in mind that the loot and xp are reduced, probably significantly, for completing the quest on that difficulty so those of you/us who completed the quest on Hard or Elite are in no way affected by the change. You got your higher xp award and loot for completing the quest on more difficult settings. My guess here is that the devs are responding to players who, because they were not able to complete at least some quests even when their character was at a much higher level as compared to the quest or perhaps played at odd times and could not find groups for some quests, were missing out on parts of the game. Again, how does that affect players who did not have such problems? I just cannot see that it does.

.

Casual setting results in EXP being under 50% Base of normal setting, but once you factor in all the multipliers tha actual exp you earn per minute might not be all that much lower.

Chests appear to be based on the quest level setting which is one lower than the default. So a level 5 quest on normal with level 5 chests, is a level 4 quest with level 4 chests on Casual.

[Cyr]

Of course not but I think it's fair to say that a good part is either powergamers who should love Epic (if it was better designed) or new players/very casual players that are far less skilled than us veterans (either for lack of experience or because they are just less skilled players, period) and might need a better learning curve.

Sure more people would like EPIC if it was designed better, but EPIC as designed is made for pretty hardcore gamers. There is no if and or but about it's design there. That is a small percentage of the population. And I most certainly do not think that a majority or even a large percentage of new players/casual players need an easier mode then normal with dungeon scaling. Casual players had to play enough to get to the level they are at and same with new players. That gave them time to learn the ropes already. New players are not somehow endowed with mad gimped skills. The learning curve is 90% build related in DDO and that does not get fixed or helped with a noob mode. Actually it makes it much worse, because they may not realize until more time played that their toon really does suck that bad making them figure out how to not make a gimp or just copying someone's build which is good. The longer someone plays a toon that they will realize will have to be re-rolled if they want a half way decent toon the higher the odds they will say "screw this game I'm going back to WOW".

[Cedwin]

For those who find everything too easy, go do the Mensa puzzles.

Got a 26 out of 30

[Borror0]

Sure more people would like EPIC if it was designed better, but EPIC as designed is made for pretty hardcore gamers.

I disagree. Hardcore is the wrong word. Crazy masochistic gamers sounds more appropriate

The great majority of hardcore players dislike Epic because they are neither crazy (well, not to that extent) nor masochistic (well, not to that extent).

I most certainly do not think that a majority or even a large percentage of new players/casual players need an easier mode then normal with dungeon scaling.

I do. Considering the number of wipes I have been through, quite a few would enjoy the kind of casual experience that Easy has to offer. You and I are pretty hardcore gamers. We play for the challenge and we always hope to "get in the zone" while gaming. But, casual gamers care more about "easy fun": curiosity, exploration, etc.

It's a different mentality. I'm not talking "casual gaming time" but a different outlook on gaming, completely.

The learning curve is 90% build related in DDO and that does not get fixed or helped with a noob mode.

True but that's not the only change Turbine has made to the game since August 31st.

[Ranmaru2]

Until I see a release note that states "Enemy mobs now have to save at regular intervals in crowd control, like Player Characters who stand in enemy crowd control spells," my opinion of this "Heroic Surge" thing is that it is a completely stupid, ungrounded add-on to the game.

How did you come up with this devs? I would like to know.

Did people suddenly forget the importance of saves? Or is this your best fix for a number generation system that is stacked against the players but encourages asinine results for enemy mobs?
Perfect example of the number generation claim
1) Go Flesh to Stone every kobold in Kobold Assault on normal. Make sure to take off all extra damage modifier items
2) Equip Terror
3) Swing at stoned kobolds and watch as they make continuous saves against PK.

Even with a +5 will save and +8 fortitude save I'm going to fail a save against the terror PK more often than the enemies will, yet low level kobolds save at about a 95% percent ratio.

Currently, with Crowd Control you NEED heighten and the spell focuses if you hope to keep a mob locked (For the entire duration).

Just because some people join the game and are very slow to learn the mechanics like the saving throw system doesn't mean you need to add in a system that completely contradicts the very nature of how spells like Flesh to Stone, Otto's Resistable/Irresistable dance (Any test results to see if these are affected by the new system?), and (Insert Fear Spell here) are supposed to function.

So much for tactics, everyone make a battle cleric/melee toon, this game is turning hack and slash -.-

[Hendrik]

Without constant tinkering/balancing/re-balancing the game, any game, would grow stale, fast.

[Cyr]

I
I do. Considering the number of wipes I have been through, quite a few would enjoy the kind of casual experience that Easy has to offer. You and I are pretty hardcore gamers. We play for the challenge and we always hope to "get in the zone" while gaming. But, casual gamers care more about "easy fun": curiosity, exploration, etc.

Dude for some reason people always assume that I run with some elite crew all the time. I don't. In fact 80% of the time I pure pug. Now that I am doing a TR it's more like 90% of the time. Yet I have had one wipe the entire time. Oh and I have not been soloing either, but running mostly pugs that I have not started myself. So I've been running with all these new players, some suck, some are great, most are in between and am not seeing this horror story of wipes. Who the heck are you running with?

[Cyr]

Without constant tinkering/balancing/re-balancing the game, any game, would grow stale, fast.

Complete nonsense. Tinkering does not make a game fresh. New content in the form of quests, abilities, classes, and races does. You don't see people exclaiming wow the game is so fun and new now that my CC works differently! or Wow there's no new content, but now that my evasion fighter can't wear his mithral full plate it's like a whole new more fun game that I can't stop playing...

You do hear however..."Man I love those monks", "Oh you got to run Shroud very cool quest", "Hey you might actually get to play your archer and not suck "...

[cdr]

OP, you want to know the actual reason they keep tinkering?

http://www.randsinrepose.com/archive...he_system.html

Think of it like this — does it bug you that there’s an absolute high score to Pac-Man? It bugs me.

To get around this entertainment-killing paradox in subscription-based games like World of Warcraft, game designers freely change rule sets as part of regular updates. The spin is, “We’re improving playability” which translates into, “The geeks are close to figuring it out and we can’t have that because they’ll stop paying.”

[Ghoste]

No. I still have Freedom of Movements, do I?

Ah, so you think they should just take all cc spells out all together...because we have freedom of movement? Otherwise, you're saying what...there's no difference in the impact they have on the game?

Seriously, why did you even say that?