New changes as of Update 3 good bad and the ugly

[Josh]

That isn't metagaming. Using entirely in-game logic, a reasonably intelligent foe could decide to take out the easy-to-eliminate targets first, especially if they are providing support; it would only be metagaming if the attacker were unintelligent in which case, yes, they would continue attacking the obvious threat if there wasn't some metagame re-direction going on.

"Metagaming" means considering external (to the game setting) factors when making game decisions, like using bugs to your advantage or having enemies act on information they could not reasonably have based on in-game sources. Making a random animal pick out a healer in a combat would be metagame (coded that way because of the developers' knowledge of player tactics) but an intelligent foe could reasonably prioritize support toons over attackers based on in-game knowledge and experience.

I would argue that dealing with an indirect threat at the expense of a direct one involves a logic that is external to the situation, and hence metagame.

[jasonchrist]

Anyone complaining about Horoth changes would hate playing D&D with me as a DM. Having to save against Banishment is hardly a substitute for the difficulty that this battle should pose.

If I was running an end game devil general, he would be attacking the characters that most opposed his alignment (Good, Chaos, good taking priority) and spellcasters.

Clerics and Paladins, in 3.5, have auras of good and they would be likely candidates for being an early target; taking down a hero of this background is a great blow to the party's morale.

Mages casting spells, whether buffs, crowd control, or offensive, have a high threat to hit point ratio. They can go down in 1/2 rounds of attacks, and are often prioritized by a monster that 'thinks'. Taking out the caster requires the party to react, and often induces panic mode hysteria.

Proximity of characters will alter such tactics accordingly, as will opportunity to blast multiple foes with area effects. Inspiring dread by finishing off a dying party member is something that I think further enhances the encounter.

These things aren't taken into account in DDO, and it is not expected that computer AI should be able to match that of a well run encounter. In the spirit of the game that DDO is based off of, this additional challenge should be embraced. I think that the encounter would be better if Horoth used some other spell-like abilities to harass support characters in addition to the Banishment.

Tactics that make you hate the general are exactly what this encounter needs; you can't march into a villain's lair and expect to have the advantage.

That being said, boot items are too difficult to obtain. I'd like to see a significant drop rate increase as demand for these items will increase heavily with the proposed change.

[bobbryan2]

Anyone complaining about Horoth changes would hate playing D&D with me as a DM. Having to save against Banishment is hardly a substitute for the difficulty that this battle should pose.

If I was running an end game devil general, he would be attacking the characters that most opposed his alignment (Good, Chaos, good taking priority) and spellcasters.

Clerics and Paladins, in 3.5, have auras of good and they would be likely candidates for being an early target; taking down a hero of this background is a great blow to the party's morale.

Mages casting spells, whether buffs, crowd control, or offensive, have a high threat to hit point ratio. They can go down in 1/2 rounds of attacks, and are often prioritized by a monster that 'thinks'. Taking out the caster requires the party to react, and often induces panic mode hysteria.

Proximity of characters will alter such tactics accordingly, as will opportunity to blast multiple foes with area effects. Inspiring dread by finishing off a dying party member is something that I think further enhances the encounter.

These things aren't taken into account in DDO, and it is not expected that computer AI should be able to match that of a well run encounter. In the spirit of the game that DDO is based off of, this additional challenge should be embraced. I think that the encounter would be better if Horoth used some other spell-like abilities to harass support characters in addition to the Banishment.

Tactics that make you hate the general are exactly what this encounter needs; you can't march into a villain's lair and expect to have the advantage.

That being said, boot items are too difficult to obtain. I'd like to see a significant drop rate increase as demand for these items will increase heavily with the proposed change.

Yes, and in PnP, I'm sure you would kill Horoth once every 3 days, and only have a 5% chance of getting loot from beating the end boss.

[smatt]

I would argue that dealing with an indirect threat at the expense of a direct one involves a logic that is external to the situation, and hence metagame.

LOL external threat? Really? Since when would the supply lines to a force be an external threat? When would what Horoth obvisouly can see are the functions keeping his foes alive an external threat, and how is that metagaming.... Really? Now that being said we all metagame after the first time we run a DDO quest.... So it's really moot anyway....

But the changes to Horoth aren't nearly metagaming....


Good, bad, ugly.... On the face of it the change to Horoth in concert with a change to the ease of aquiring the boots is more likely a good change not a bad one... A change to just Horoth alone in the fashion spoken of by the release notes would be a bad one. Both IMO

[jasonchrist]

Yes, and in PnP, I'm sure you would kill Horoth once every 3 days, and only have a 5% chance of getting loot from beating the end boss.

You would kill him once and accept the loot that was given to you; I'd say that you would have far less than 5% chance of getting something useful after the party divides treasure. You would not be equipped the same, hit points would be different on both sides, and spell-casting would be an entirely different story.

This game is based on the d20 system, but hardly the same system. Your reply does nothing to argue against my claims or defend a differing opinion; it was nothing more than a simplistic attempt to undermine me. Try adding something to the thread if you're going to post.

This is a video game, not a role-playing game; my statements were reflecting upon my experience playing the game that this was based upon, and using them to justify the idea of making a smarter, more challenging end-game boss.

[Drfirewater79]

Dooooooooommmm... Yep, OK whatever.... I have lots of legitimately obtained boots and a good number of my guildies do as well, I also have soem ingredients sitting in my bag, that I give out to guildies who need them... And we continue to do just that... It's good you complain about everything all you want. I just adapt and continue to play and have fun..... When I stop having fun.... I'll move on...

This change is perfectly wwithin the guidlines of what an INTELLEGENT DM would have a very INTELLEGENT mob boss do.... I revelled in my old PnP DM days, that is before games got so mucked up with the myriad of BS 15 books of rules that caused plaeyrs to spend mroe time arguing symantics and interpretation than actually playing the game.... And none of my players EVER quite because I made things interesting rather than surround and destroy....

Lamania is for the to show the live playerbase what they're doign and to TEST he update for mroe bugs than they could possibly test on the other servers... There is no reasont o belive that what's on Lama is exactly what's going live... In fact I'm betting there's a rather few detials that are held out...

Keep complaining... It may wrok it has before ....

I love it

when ever i prove someone wrong they always spout the same stupid nonsense "DOOOOOOOOM" come on really ... your so 3 years ago.

if you have several pairs of legit boots then you either got lucky or bought a bunch of ingredients cause as i said i have been running the stuff pretty hardcore and i have one pair and i had to buy my last ingredient have never even seen the statue thing drop in a chest i had to buy it ... onlything i see drop frequently is the iron and the keepsake. and i have easily 50 of each and over 200 of gen and invasion.

who said anything about 15 rule books and ****

I am talking core book

there are three core books for dnd

players handbook, DMG, and Monster manual 1

its a core book that says the raid as it stands is perfect.

I was never debating that the higher the difficulty thus the higher the boss intelligence shouldnt be harder ... of course room wide banishing while completly against DnD rules makes sense on elite TOD ... but not on normal.

and its not like its just me there are hundreds of posts saying the same thing TOD has no business being changed it wasnt broken and there is more negitivity built up by this change then anything.

Lamma is 100% about the player base hype and bug control ....

if the hype is negitive then it makes sense to remove the code while you still have beta time for the update. or add stipulations like this code comes into effect on hard and elite difficulties only.

its a way to get feedback from the player base find out what they like and dislike about the update so that changes can be made ....The problem is TUBINE DOESNT LISTEN

so you may be right complaining might not get us anywhere and when the game gets to be not fun we just stop playing it .... your the DOOOOOM say'er not me

I am simply stating a fact ... that the game is not broken then dont fix it.

[Drfirewater79]

I would argue that dealing with an indirect threat at the expense of a direct one involves a logic that is external to the situation, and hence metagame.

Yes you are right and the fact that it actually goes against the thought process of a Pit feind as per MM1 ... what someone who actually knows rules ... yeah wow that is impressive lol

But the changes to Horoth aren't nearly metagaming....


Good, bad, ugly.... On the face of it the change to Horoth in concert with a change to the ease of aquiring the boots is more likely a good change not a bad one... A change to just Horoth alone in the fashion spoken of by the release notes would be a bad one. Both IMO

It is Metagaming ... ITS BASED ON THE THOUGHT PROCESS OF A PIT FIEND ... god damd people really ... Pit fiends go after the largest threat directly and summon mobs to attack the others as an attempt to distract them from assisting the target being attacked (the target HE has done the most damage to ... not the target that has damaged him the most though its possible to be the same thing) when that doesnt work he CONTINUES TO ATTACK and stuns pesky casters ... that is DnD Rule set of combat engagement for a Pit Fiend this is regardless of intellegence these are rules the DM is suppost to follow ... so many DM's break the rules and put human intellegence on a PIT FIEND .....

You would kill him once and accept the loot that was given to you; I'd say that you would have far less than 5% chance of getting something useful after the party divides treasure. You would not be equipped the same, hit points would be different on both sides, and spell-casting would be an entirely different story.

This game is based on the d20 system, but hardly the same system. Your reply does nothing to argue against my claims or defend a differing opinion; it was nothing more than a simplistic attempt to undermine me. Try adding something to the thread if you're going to post.

This is a video game, not a role-playing game; my statements were reflecting upon my experience playing the game that this was based upon, and using them to justify the idea of making a smarter, more challenging end-game boss.

Its a video game that is right ... its suppost to relieve stress not cause it ...

As a DM you should know the rules of the game and know that putting human intelligence on a MOB goes against the Rules of DnD ..... house rules are house rules but mob intelligence when playing at DnD conventions is not the same as human intelligence.

in a house rules game if a boss mob decides to burn down a city trying to find my mindbender rather then fight the two dragons i sent after him .. that makes sense ... in a video game using core rule set it doesnt.

i have already posted what the Monster Manual II states as the rules of engagement for Pit fiends

that being already stated .... how many times in your games have you given mobs powers that dont exist in the game? as a DM ....

how often do you say this guys a Pit fiend Sorc but he can cast blade barrier just cause ... or more directly how often do you say this guy is a pit fiend so he has banishment ... so he can banish the entire party regardless of the rules of the spell that state it has a range of effect i am gonna even banish the cleric who is sick and in bed three cities away (cause he couldnt make it to that gaming session)?

I agree the boss mobs intelligence on elite should not be the same as on normal and as such making these stupid changes makes sense on elite but it doesnt on normal.

Normal setting on a video game is generated as an ideal setting for people who understand similar video games (not always even the same game just similar ones) and dont want much of a challenge ...thus making it easy to beat ... where as easy or casual would be for people who never played the style of game before.

normal is suppost to be easy to beat for vets ... why is it that none of you seem to understand this ... have you never played video games before?

[smatt]

It is Metagaming ... ITS BASED ON THE THOUGHT PROCESS OF A PIT FIEND ... god damd people really ... Pit fiends go after the largest threat directly and summon mobs to attack the others as an attempt to distract them from assisting the target being attacked (the target HE has done the most damage to ... not the target that has damaged him the most though its possible to be the same thing) when that doesnt work he CONTINUES TO ATTACK and stuns pesky casters ... that is DnD Rule set of combat engagement for a Pit Fiend this is regardless of intellegence these are rules the DM is suppost to follow ... so many DM's break the rules and put human intellegence on a PIT FIEND .....

What kind of PnP game do you play have you played and for how long.... Do you actually have a clue what you're talking about? There are NO RULES DM's are suppossed to follow..... They are guidelines, always have been always will variation is great in D&D, and it wouldn't even be moving from the norm for him to act in the way set out on Lama right now....

[jasonchrist]

that being already stated .... how many times in your games have you given mobs powers that dont exist in the game? as a DM ....

Any time that I deem the encounter will not be challenging enough for the party; often times this is tweaking a spell, inventing a similar spell of higher/lower level, creating combat advantage through terrain, or allowing additional actions. My players have enjoyed overcoming great challenges with some incredible strategy, as it has made their deeds more heroic.

how often do you say this guys a Pit fiend Sorc but he can cast blade barrier just cause ... or more directly how often do you say this guy is a pit fiend so he has banishment ... so he can banish the entire party regardless of the rules of the spell that state it has a range of effect i am gonna even banish the cleric who is sick and in bed three cities away (cause he couldnt make it to that gaming session)?

If I wanted the monster to have any spell-like ability, I would adjust challenge rating as I saw fit.

Range of effect should not be brought up, as many spells ranges were adjusted due to the fast-paced nature of this game.

Banishing a cleric 3 cities away wouldn't do anything, assuming he is on his natural plane.

I agree the boss mobs intelligence on elite should not be the same as on normal and as such making these stupid changes makes sense on elite but it doesnt on normal.

This has a lot of merit, but I think it should have less to do with different intelligence on harder settings and more to do with frequency of casting.

Normal setting on a video game is generated as an ideal setting for people who understand similar video games (not always even the same game just similar ones) and dont want much of a challenge ...thus making it easy to beat ... where as easy or casual would be for people who never played the style of game before.

normal is suppost to be easy to beat for vets ... why is it that none of you seem to understand this ... have you never played video games before?

Veterans probably have, or can acquire, boots of anchoring, so I see this as flawed logic. If you think that this encounter should be a cakewalk because you spent time gathering your elite equipment, what is the difference in using your boots slot to keep it this way?

[Josh]

LOL external threat? Really? Since when would the supply lines to a force be an external threat? When would what Horoth obviously can see are the functions keeping his foes alive an external threat, and how is that metagaming.... Really? Now that being said we all metagame after the first time we run a DDO quest.... So it's really moot anyway....

But the changes to Horoth aren't nearly metagaming....


Good, bad, ugly.... On the face of it the change to Horoth in concert with a change to the ease of aquiring the boots is more likely a good change not a bad one... A change to just Horoth alone in the fashion spoken of by the release notes would be a bad one. Both IMO

Because supply lines aren't beating on him with weapons? So, if you were being jumped by two guys, one of them armed with a rifle and one standing in the background cheering the first one on you'd go after the guy in the background, right? Remind me never to have you watch my back in a fight....

Not sure what you mean by "external threat" as I said no such thing. I said "direct" and "indirect". Supply lines are an INDIRECT threat. Focus man, focus.

As I said before I have no issue with everyone "requiring" boots for the raid as long as the drop rate is upped significantly. Having "no issue" and "agreeing with" are not the same thing though. Let me elaborate further.

Discounting the whole direct v.s. indirect thing, I think that simply from a thematic perspective it's totally wrong. Look at the situation: A group of adventurers invade Horoth's lair, killing some of his most powerful allies in the process. His allies abandon him saying "This is your mess General, you clean it up". You think he's not ****ed off? Also, do you not think that it would be likely that such a powerful being would be full of hubris? I think it would be pretty boring if he wasn't because all you would have to do is have the pit fiend fly above the party and spam blasphemy every round if you were a ****** DM. They *can* use it at will if I remember correctly. But would a big, bad ass villain in his own home do something chicken **** like that, or would he feel overly confident in his abilities and decide to "get his hands dirty" and inflict some pain on the biggest, baddest looking opponents he could find? Just my opinion so take it FWIW.

All I am saying is that I cannot see a logical reason for this change other than for the developers to make this encounter artificially harder than it is now. I'm all for harder, but not just harder for harder's sake.

[Josh]

I believe someone said "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Couldn't be more true than right here.

[Pyromaniac]

cant blame atari for everything.

Got to agree with that one.

Here's my opinion: I'd rather not have Update 3 at all. The bad outweighs the good, skip it and move on to update 4.

[Fenrisulven6]

if you were being jumped by two guys, one of them armed with a rifle and one standing in the background cheering the first one on you'd go after the guy in the background, right? Remind me never to have you watch my back in a fight....

one of them armed with a rifle and one standing in the background calling in air support, I'd go after the guy in the background.

Of course, I'm a former Marine, so what do I know....

[fuzzy1guy]

As someone whos not in the uber raid grindy guilds... From what i hear and am told... the whole tod thing is a catch-22.

To get a chance at the thing you have to have the thing. Which if you have it. You don't need to get it. And will only be helping someone else get it. maybe.

So bottom line to someone outside looking in like me... WHY BOTHER AT ALL! Go do something else entirely.

Overall the changes seem to reinforce that to everyone not in the uber guild that has plenty of players with the thing already..


<shrug>

[Drfirewater79]

Oh really now you're a rule godess?
Moe rule godess talk.... Wow, you'd be bore in a PnP game for sure.... Really are you kidding???? What kind of PnP game do you play have you played and for how long.... Do you actually have a clue what you're talking about? There are NO RULES DM's are suppossed to follow..... They are guidelines, always have been always will variation is great in D&D, and by anykind of sane or logical thought process it wouldn't even be moving from the norm for him to act in the way set out on Lama right now.... You really need to learn what metagaming is before you start describing it. You're playing rule jockey..... That's the kind of player that ruins games....

As for the snipped parts, more opinion... Not a thing that is even close to anything important in this context...

Not gonna turn this into a name calling contest cause i wont stoop to your level.
I understand though often when someone cannot debate something intelligently they turn to name calling and fight starting .. but as i already have 2 dimerits from commenting on others I will simply state that DMG is a rule setting for DM's in Home games they can make all the rules they want but in tourney/convention play its expected that even DM's follow the guildlines and rules set before them by the core rule books .. .other wise the DMG wouldnt be called a core rule book.

Any time that I deem the encounter will not be challenging enough for the party; often times this is tweaking a spell, inventing a similar spell of higher/lower level, creating combat advantage through terrain, or allowing additional actions. My players have enjoyed overcoming great challenges with some incredible strategy, as it has made their deeds more heroic.

If I wanted the monster to have any spell-like ability, I would adjust challenge rating as I saw fit.

Range of effect should not be brought up, as many spells ranges were adjusted due to the fast-paced nature of this game.

Banishing a cleric 3 cities away wouldn't do anything, assuming he is on his natural plane.

This has a lot of merit, but I think it should have less to do with different intelligence on harder settings and more to do with frequency of casting.

Veterans probably have, or can acquire, boots of anchoring, so I see this as flawed logic. If you think that this encounter should be a cakewalk because you spent time gathering your elite equipment, what is the difference in using your boots slot to keep it this way?

First of JC let me thank you for debating this topic intelligently i agree with many of your reasonings though different then my own.

1)This is the wonder full thing about PnP ... is that the difficulty rating is based on the experience of the party not the difficulty of the dungeon ... if the party you are DMing for is blasting through stuff you thought would be a challenge you can Pick up a DMG and adjust the CR without going overboard and then adjust it again if they are still raping your mobs. In a Video game however difficulty is based not on player ability but player choice .. they choose to play on normal cause they dont want a challenge ... they choose to play on hard cause they want a moderate challenge ... they choose to play on elite cause they want a serious challenge ... they choose to play on epic cause their suicidal.

in pnp the DM makes the choice ... in DDO the player makes the choice thus the reason why i am ok with the change for hard and elite but completly against the change on normal.

2) Yes i agree ... but as that is said if the same party you are DMing fails at attempts at that same boss 50% of the time would you up the challenge raiting to lower there success?

now think on the fact that i mentioned above about difficulties in a video game ...

if the average pug completes TOD 50% of the time on normal ... why up the difficulty on normal ... doesnt make sense does it.

3) Range of effect has to be considered spell range for target makes sence the fact that he CAN throw banishment spell on someone on the other side of the room makes sense to some degree ... even if you just chalk it up to knowing his throne room that damd well. But targeted spells still need to be targeted they still have to abide by the spell range after hitting a target. I can be all fine and dandy with a change that makes sense but changing the range of the effect doesnt make sense ... and again it makes sense to do things that dont make alot of sense on elite but doesnt make sense on normal.

4)lol yeah exaduration lol

5)I think here is where we agree to disagree at least in part ... I think as the difficulty goes up the threat of banishment should be higher ... this sounds like what your saying but its not really

on normal melee threat is main target of banishment

on hard melee threat is main target of banishment with occasional caster target

on elite everyone is a threat and banishments should be expected no matter who or where you are.

that being said i also believe it would work in addition to what is said above if

on normal banishment ability is used 1 time (target having an area of effect) per wave of orthons

on hard banishment is used on 3 targets (each target having an area of effect) per wave of orthons

on elite banishment is used on 5 targets (each target having an area of effect) per wave of orthons

this way people who cannot get a pair of boots can still have a chance of beating it on normal without getting banished and people who do have boots can challenge themselves to harder difficulties where without boots there is no way you are safe on hard or eltie.

... really even with the change it would be fine under either of these two changes

1) boot ingredients drop at a 50% rate in all missions including two side missions.

or

2) deathward works on normal only

this would mean if you got dispelled you better have a death ward clickie or get a cleric to cast it on you fast while still not banished .... this way people have a chance of tackling the raid without boots or at least making the boots easier to grind out.

6) The problem is not taking off madstone boots or dr boots which would help but not needed for this raid at least not in part 3. The problem is after grinding it to death and still having to buy ingredients ... as a vet ...

i have lots of completions and have several ingredients and still had to buy an ingredient to finish off my first pair of boots so i would have one character ready for the changes (my monk) after making his i have 2 more ingredients and sick of grinding. I have 5 lvl 18+ characters and have 1 set of boots ... the game has alot of stuff to do ... i cannot spend every day doing nothing but aramath getting no ingredients and then do it again the next day ... i would quit the game from boredom ... its that same stupidness that got turbine in this problem to begin with. And rather then learn from its mistakes it continues to make the same stupid mistakes time and time again ... Abbot raid preping boredom is where i lost two guilds in the course of 4 months from people going to play other games.And that was back when there wasnt IQ farming that needed to be done or shroud farming which needed to be done like now ... we have so much REQUIRED farming that requiring farming especially to the extent of current boot farming to get into a raid (.. even reaver is obsurd these days most just buy the relics off the AH ) is falling into the same WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE PLAYERS HATE ABOUT OUR GAME trap they where in a year and a half ago.

[smatt]

Not gonna turn this into a name calling contest cause i wont stoop to your level.
I understand though often when someone cannot debate something intelligently they turn to name calling and fight starting .. but as i already have 2 dimerits from commenting on others I will simply state that DMG is a rule setting for DM's in Home games they can make all the rules they want but in tourney/convention play its expected that even DM's follow the guildlines and rules set before them by the core rule books .. .other wise the DMG wouldnt be called a core rule book.

LOL, well your attempt lasted about one sentence...

Yes, this is a home game.. This is Turbine's home... This isnt' a tourney, it's not PnP.... Nor are any of your descriptions of metagaming proper, and even if they were they wouldn't apply to a generally static VIDEO game. Even without the wide latitude a DM has the possible actions set forth for Horoth in the next update are well within the realm of possibilities... It's a straw man arguement, and you're simpyl typing out 2,000 word posts. I can debate you all day long and get into great detail... But I have better thigns to do than debate "rules" within someone who misses the enitre point of D&D. I've seen 2 people jsut like you argue for hours over rule interpretation, while the rest of us drank and had a good time PLAYING a game as oppossed ot arguing opionated symantics. You're a rule jockey trying to dictate the world of D&D.

[Cyr]

Got to agree with that one.

Here's my opinion: I'd rather not have Update 3 at all. The bad outweighs the good, skip it and move on to update 4.

/signed

[smatt]

one of them armed with a rifle and one standing in the background calling in air support, I'd go after the guy in the background.

Of course, I'm a former Marine, so what do I know....

It's amazing to think that a Devil that's leading the defense of an entire plane might, just might have in intelligence. above 12 or so ....... And might just act in a way slighty more tactical than your average dwarven barb, in other words "Why aren't these guys dying, and why aren't my minions helping me? Oh that's why, I can take care of that?" instead of "Me kill stuff hitting me" .... But apparently the supreme D&D thinkers in this thread can't see this

The whole thing is a joke, I mean seriously, getting into what Horoth would and wouldn't do if a particular person was DMing is completely besides the point. And leads to some of the wall o' text posts which contain 1,000 words talking about stuff that simply doesn't matter in the true context of this change.


We shall see.... If the Devs leave the boot piece drop and or the mechanic used in aquiring the boots the same... The change to Horoth will be a very bad thing. If they fix the mentioned, than the change to Horoth makes perfect sense. There are more reasons for this change, as someone mentioned in another thread about 56,000 posts ago.... The boots will likely be coming into play in the future more than they currently do.

[quickgrif]

Got to agree with that one.

Here's my opinion: I'd rather not have Update 3 at all. The bad outweighs the good, skip it and move on to update 4.

/signed It is unfortunate because it had some nice add ins but there is just too many bad or poorly thought out things in this update.

[jasonchrist]

Lots of stuff

I think we're all in agreement on boots components pieces; the Amrath quests are too long and often very unrewarding. Once you grabbed the random belt you need for your class, which doesn't take long as drop rate is pretty high, you are grinding for a boot part that seems impossible. It is very discouraging to run one of those quests even three times, and not get a part; and your odds are worse than that.

On Dismissal:
I don't mind the dismissal effect being AoE; and maybe I don't understand the changes. If he casts banishment, does everyone in the room have to make a save or is it just everyone in the vicinity of point of banishment?

If he nails caster and bard because he targeted one that was near the other, that happens, no different than the tanks all having to make a save for being in melee. This is how I assumed the changes were put in place.

If every time he spams the spell forces everyone in the room is make a save, without regards to vicinity, this is going to have a deep effect on forming the raid as many people will be too discouraged by past failure.

I like the idea of banishing the indirect threats, but to wipe a raid on a few bad rolls, which will happen if everyone is forced to save every time, is a pretty weak way to scale up the challenge. D&D uses dice rolls to figure success or failure, and any DM knows that save or die is part of the game, but is not fun for players, especially in mass, and therefore is discouraged. Banishment in this raid is far worse of a punishment than death.

If the room is saving against Banishment each time, boots are nearly as much of a requirement as flagging and drop rate of parts should be significantly increased.