Pale Master review

[Khellendros13]

See, this makes no sense, cause I tried casting heal (offensively) against a warforged in a pvp match, and got an immune message. Are you inside of a public or private instance? Because the undead traits don't happen inside a public instance.

Outside in the Vale, so private instance. Really, should be able to UMD a harm scroll on myself, when all the abilities and gear is aimed toward negative damage. The description of Lich form on the tooltip display for it's icon specifically says positive energy has no effect...

I'm sure they will play around with it.

If Harm can be scrolled on yourself in the end, 19 wiz/1bard might not be a bad idea to hit a 35 or 38 standing UMD, if you don't mind losing 1 feat.

[Gum]

Now there is no reason to not be warforged. This needs changed before live.

Well Warforged are the best! Honestly, I can understand cutting the self repair down by 50% while in form, but that's just what I would consider balanced. Viva La WF!

[Ganak]

Any of those testing pale masters check to look at their ToD pale master ring to see if a tier 3 pm only bonus was added?

[Khellendros13]

You CANNOT self repair inside an instance. No repair pots, no repair wands, no reconstruct scrolls, no reconstruct spell.

However, I could use a cure moderate scroll on myself. As I have said a few times already.

[Gum]

You CANNOT self repair inside an instance. No repair pots, no repair wands, no reconstruct scrolls, no reconstruct spell.

However, I could use a cure moderate scroll on myself. As I have said a few times already.

Ughh..That's just terrible. Why they wouldn't allow at least 50% effectiveness is beyond me.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

That's not a valid comparison, because a melee specialty doesn't really take time away from the activities you'd already be doing.

Nor does Necrotic Touch in most scenarios; there are very few places in endgame where casters' best course of action is to spend all their mana as fast as possible on nukes. Also, note that while a melee specialty increases DPS that melees already have, Necrotic Touch allows casters to do something that they couldn't already do--keep killing things without any mana.

For a wizard to be within touch distance of his opponent every 6 seconds will mean a major change to what wizards typically do in combat gameplay, which revolves around keeping outside of reach.

"Touch distance" and "outside of reach" aren't mutually exclusive in DDO. But yes, it will still mean a major change in how wizards move throughout combat, and proper use would require careful attention.

Always remember: The most important currency of D&D combat is actions.

That's absolutely correct... in D&D. And absolutely wrong in DDO. A caster can easily blow through his mana in a single minute in DDO. There are very few places in the game where the fastest spending of your mana (in other words, the most efficient use of 'actions') is the best (or even a good) idea. This relates to the first point--anywhere where you aren't planning to spend all your mana as fast as possible, Necrotic Touch is adding DPS. In places like VoD, you start seeing that ideal number of +50 DPS very commonly.

For reference, compare to when you've had the healing curse on you facing the devil in the shroud or in VoD.. could you go five minutes without removing the curse?

Sure, if the cleric could still heal you (as clerics can with undead forms). There's an extremely important difference between 'can't be healed by positive energy' and 'can't be healed.'

And being in melee range isn't a big deal for ANY caster... except perhaps a caster that can't heal themselves... which PM turns you into.

No, it doesn't. Wraith and Lich forms do.



Some clarification of my position on Necrotic Touch: No, I don't think it is "uber" or otherwise ridiculously powerful. I don't think it is the "best." I do think that it gives wizards an extremely valuable ability, namely, do continue doing damage without spellpoints and to increase their damage while they do have spell points. And I think that makes it a very valuable PrE, whether or not the undead forms are universally useful (though I don't think they healing disadvantage is nearly as great as a lot have been making it out to be). Hopefully that is a little more clear than my original post in this thread.

[Bunker]

Are we forgetting what the original Pale Master set bonus from the ring/belt combo in ToD does?

The increase of negative energy on one's self by 200%. This obviously was for the intent of increasing a Pale Masters ability to self heal. Sure it could be understood as an increase of a Pale Master to be healed by others while in undead form, but to assume that there was no way to self heal imo, is simply incorrect.

When we finally received the Pale Master, knowing that it would come live in the next update, it was also showed that the set bonus was changed. I'm going to stay in the realm of assumptions for the time being, and say that the change to the set bonus was done simply because the application for Pale Master self healing could not be solved by the Dev team.

I think they intended to have Pale Master heal themself. Again I'm guessing. I have no proof. I feel it just makes logical sense. If the set bonus was not changed. Since the healing ability through negative energy doesn't seem to work all that well, if work at all, then the Devs changed the set bonus to avoid the players later complaining that the set bonus does nothing.

Perhaps they are still working on a solution. I do agree that the bonuses that wraith and lich forms grant are GREAT. I still say that the original intention of both undead forms was to be able to heal through negative energy. It might still work, but I dont' think it is working as they originally thought they could.

[Khellendros13]

The cooldown for Necrotic Touch is 3s btw, not 6s.

[Sarezar]

A couple of random comments:

1) Technically, the Shroud of the Abbot provides "DR" in most cases. In order for the negative damage to be classified as actual healing, it would have to take you to more Hit Points than you currently have. Being hit for 30 damage to regain 3 is not healing, and accepting hits in this manner is definitely, clearly, and obviously not the same as a WF that reconstructs (even at 50%)

2) If WF "should" become undead constructs and receive partial repairs, then all other races should become undead humanoids and receive partial healing.


I personally am disappointed that the forms cannot currently be toggled off. My human Wizard is doing just fine with csw pots (not asking for a quickened reconstruct equivalent), and I would be happy to use the forms tactically, but not being able to dispel the form seems wrong to me; like my character is possesed by an undead that can hold me against my will for 3 whole minutes. From "power" this ability becomes "prison".

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

nm

[RigorAdar]

Does Deathward block incoming Harm from an ally, if so stay well away from the buffing cleric. Mass DW for the loss

[Angelus_dead]

Does Deathward block incoming Harm from an ally, if so stay well away from the buffing cleric. Mass DW for the loss

Hopefully they'll fix DW so that the negative-blocking doesn't apply to creatures who benefit from negative energy... there are monster undeads who wear DW already, including an easily-reachable skeleton in Reclaiming Memories.

Last time I tried, it seemed to block Inflict spells.

Note that it isn't a viable workaround for the PM Wizard to just stay away from the DW buff, because he'll need it to prevent Enervation.

[bobbryan2]

Note that it isn't a viable workaround for the PM Wizard to just stay away from the DW buff, because he'll need it to prevent Enervation.

Only in flesh mode.

[Angelus_dead]

Only in flesh mode.

Ok, so the previous reports of being Enervated while a Wraith are something that only happens in PVP?

[bobbryan2]

Ok, so the previous reports of being Enervated while a Wraith are something that only happens in PVP?

Phew... I dunno. I thought it said that it blocked enervation in pvp, but I could be wrong. I don't have a current wizard to do much testing on lammy.

[Calebro]

Speaking of testing, I seem to remember reading that Inflict Light Wounds were being added to all unarmed attacks made by a PM, but now I can't find where I read it. Now I'm wondering if it was my imagination, or some strange mis-interpretation of Necrotic Touch (but it's a bit too specific of a memory for that I think).

Can someone confirm or deny for me please?

[FauxSho]

Here you go Calebro:

Lich form: Duration 3 minutes, 5 minute cooldown. Grants undead traits. +4 con, +4 int +2 necromancy DC. Applies an inflict wound spell on unarmed attacks. Occasionally recives temporary hp when hit (appears to be 10% chance for 30 hp).

It's in the OP.

[Calebro]

Here you go Calebro:


It's in the OP.

HA! LOL!
Figures. I even checked the OP, but I must have just skimmed that part.
Thanks.

[Monkey_Archer]

One more thing to add...
Undead form grants +100% fortification for a total of 200% if wearing a heavy fort item.

[Favis]

A cleric can cast harm on a PM in form.

Harm neither includes Undead Foe (Living harm casting on you) or Undead self (Scroll casting Harm on yourself) as valid targets. This means that you must have another person cast negative energy spells on you to receive hit points.

More testing:

-Undead form does grant immunity to enervation, fatigue and exhaustion.
-A living harm will NOT cast harm on you in undead form (not sure if this is a bug, a targeting issue or AI)
-Undead form does not make you immune to cold.
-Inflict wounds, inflict wounds mass, harm and necrotic touch can be used to heal other PMs, but do not affect self (even mass inflict)

Thanks for the info.

This is a game based off of the PnP version.
In the PnP version, and thus following the rules, Undead is a *type*, just as Construct is a *type*
The ablilty to change into a lich or a wraith changes this *type*, thus making the repair line unavailable.
*edit:
The *living* portion of that type is a sub-type, which is irrevelavnt if the original type changes.

Good explanation

Personally I'd just carry a stack of harm scrolls, give them to the cleric and ask that they heal me AFTER combat. I know that sorting between heal and harm scrolls during combat will just get the melee''s killed..

You ought to be able to use them just fine in any party with a cleric. I honestly don't think the switching between harm and heal will be an issue at all; we clerics already switch between different heal/cure spells. It isn't that hard to hotkey harm as well. .

Good point