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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Memorizing the Harm spell in a level 6 slot isn't much of a problem. Where it becomes difficult is convincing the cleric to spend his time and effort on special different heals just for you, when otherwise he'd just be throwing occasional untargetted MCMWs on whoever is nearby.
    This.

    Question is what makes PM in undead form so uber and good for the success of the party that Cleric or FvS would bother with meming extra spell and casting that spell on one single PM in the party?

    Undead form sounds cool, but is it must have or atlest advantage in any give quest?

    No-heal part of undead form sounds like that WF feat that grants 100% fort but no cure/heal. Are there any WFs that have that feat? Maybe some did, but I bet most are 'dead' now

  2. #162
    Community Member Sarezar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Hopefully they'll fix DW so that the negative-blocking doesn't apply to creatures who benefit from negative energy...
    Or they can make it like Defender of Syberis stance, and dispel any DW effect when you enter an undead form. Ideally though, it should supress it, like a 3 minute disjunction on DW.
    Endure... In enduring, grow strong...
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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    One more thing to add...
    Undead form grants +100% fortification for a total of 200% if wearing a heavy fort item.
    So add +1 to all DC's because the Pale Master can use Yugoloth INT potions in undead form without being critically hit.

  4. #164
    Community Member etelan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Suggestions:
    -Make lichform/wraithform a toggle ability, but keep the 5 minute cooldown.
    -Allow inflict wounds and similar spells to target players in undead form.
    -Add a self-targetable negative energy spell/ability (possibly to the currently very weak tier 3)
    -Increase the effectiveness of tier 3 summons
    -Vampiric touch!!!
    Good suggestions on OP. Pale Masters could really use a little boost for as expensive as the PrE is. I was expecting pale master gear (shroud of the abbot, tower set) to be a lot more effective than they are.

  5. #165
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    Out of interest has anyone tested to see if Vicious weapons heal a Pale Master in Lich/Wraith form?

  6. #166
    Community Member die's Avatar
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    did your character graphics change.. too a wraith or lich looking form?
    Kahzadoom~Nexus~Irondoom~Doomlord~XvKing DoomHammer~
    Xoriat Born~Doompriest~Doom~Xzr~Legion of Doom~Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriogen View Post
    No-heal part of undead form sounds like that WF feat that grants 100% fort but no cure/heal. Are there any WFs that have that feat? Maybe some did, but I bet most are 'dead' now
    If it was up to me, the undead forms would be only partially undead as far as positive/negative healing.

    That means that the character is still healed by positive energy at 50%, and he's also healed by negative at 50%. If enemies cast those spells on him, they damage him 50%.

    That change would make the specialty a lot more powerful, because other players can still heal you in the normal way. So I'd do something else: You can use Necrotic Touch to heal undead creatures, including yourself, but to use it for that purpose consumes spellpoints.

  8. #168
    Community Member mediocresurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    The repair spell heals constructs. Once you transform into an undead, you are no longer a construct, you're an undead.
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbryan2 View Post
    Half right, but mostly wrong. You're no longer a living construct, you're now an undead construct.
    Both of these posts seemed to have missed the rules technicality listed on page 143 of Savage Species. This particular entry is discussing what happens when templates (sometimes multiple) are used on a creature type and is used to resolve conflicts between what type a creature should have. Certain creature type are given priority over others--for instance, if you were a human half-mindflayer werewolf, technically your creature type would be Aberation (no subtype) because Aberration is ia higher priority than Humanoid (Shapechanger) or Humanoid. This is what the ladder looks like:

    1 (Lowest): Animal, Humanoid, Vermin
    2: Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid
    3: Fey, Giant
    4: Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)
    5: Aberation
    6: Elemental, Ooze, Plant
    7 (Highest): Construct, Outsider, Undead

    Basically, this means that if you are a construct, your creature type can never change due to adding a template (like Lich). This means that you can always be Reconstructed if you were born as a Warforged, regardless of what sort of weird things happened to you through your adventuring career. However, you still would get the full effects of any templates that were applied--including immunities and other traits.

    This should mean that a Warforged Lich would be immune to friendly Heals, but could recover hit points through both Reconstruct and Harm.

    I agree that the devs should fix the bug that is preventing Warforged from using Repair and Reconstruct spells while in Lich or Wraith form. I also think that the Pale Master III should add Harm to your list of available spells. No self-respecting Lich would ever give up taking the Extra Spell (Harm) feat if they could not otherwise cast Harm on themself or pesky adventurers!
    Last edited by mediocresurgeon; 01-09-2010 at 09:09 PM.

    The nerfing will continue until morale improves!

  9. #169
    Community Member bobbryan2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediocresurgeon View Post
    Both of these posts seemed to have missed the rules technicality listed on page 143 of Savage Species. This particular entry is discussing what happens when templates (sometimes multiple) are used on a creature type and is used to resolve conflicts between what type a creature should have. Certain creature type are given priority over others--for instance, if you were a human half-mindflayer werewolf, technically your creature type would be Aberation (no subtype) because Aberration is ia higher priority than Humanoid (Shapechanger) or Humanoid. This is what the ladder looks like:

    1 (Lowest): Animal, Humanoid, Vermin
    2: Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid
    3: Fey, Giant
    4: Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)
    5: Aberation
    6: Elemental, Ooze, Plant
    7 (Highest): Construct, Outsider, Undead

    Basically, this means that if you are a construct, your creature type can never change due to adding a template (like Lich). This means that you can always be Reconstructed if you were born as a Warforged, regardless of what sort of weird things happened to you through your adventuring career. However, you still would get the full effects of any templates that were applied--including immunities and other traits. This should mean that a Warforged Lich would be immune to Heal, but could recover hit points through both Reconstruct and Harm.

    I agree that the devs should fix the bug that is preventing Warforged from using Repair and Reconstruct spells while in Lich or Wraith form.
    Thanks. I'd heard people reference it, but I didn't have the book.

  10. #170
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbryan2 View Post
    Thanks. I'd heard people reference it, but I didn't have the book.
    Ditto. Thanks for the info.
    And +1 to mediocresurgeon for the well hidden rules lawyering

  11. #171
    Community Member Sarezar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediocresurgeon View Post
    Both of these posts seemed to have missed the rules technicality listed on page 143 of Savage Species. This particular entry is discussing what happens when templates (sometimes multiple) are used on a creature type and is used to resolve conflicts between what type a creature should have. Certain creature type are given priority over others--for instance, if you were a human half-mindflayer werewolf, technically your creature type would be Aberation (no subtype) because Aberration is ia higher priority than Humanoid (Shapechanger) or Humanoid. This is what the ladder looks like:

    1 (Lowest): Animal, Humanoid, Vermin
    2: Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid
    3: Fey, Giant
    4: Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)
    5: Aberation
    6: Elemental, Ooze, Plant
    7 (Highest): Construct, Outsider, Undead

    Basically, this means that if you are a construct, your creature type can never change due to adding a template (like Lich). This means that you can always be Reconstructed if you were born as a Warforged, regardless of what sort of weird things happened to you through your adventuring career. However, you still would get the full effects of any templates that were applied--including immunities and other traits.

    This should mean that a Warforged Lich would be immune to Heal, but could recover hit points through both Reconstruct and Harm.

    I agree that the devs should fix the bug that is preventing Warforged from using Repair and Reconstruct spells while in Lich or Wraith form. I also think that the Pale Master III should add Harm to your list of available spells. No self-respecting Lich would ever give up taking the Extra Spell (Harm) feat if they could not otherwise cast Harm on themself or pesky adventurers!
    Does it specifrically explain what happens when they move from one type to another of the same rank?
    Endure... In enduring, grow strong...
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  12. #172
    Community Member SolarDawning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarezar View Post
    Does it specifrically explain what happens when they move from one type to another of the same rank?
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

    "Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery.

    The creature’s type changes to undead. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
    We're not talking about a construct with the lich template here, as that is impossible. It can only be applied to humanoids, while living constructs are not humanoids. (Thus why Hold Person does not work on Warforged)

    We're talking about DDO house rules, created by the developers of this game and implemented however they want to. Ruleslawyering saying that "A construct with the lich template should be able to heal with repair and harm!" is not only wrong (since constructs cannot be liches), but does not apply.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediocresurgeon View Post
    Both of these posts seemed to have missed the rules technicality listed on page 143 of Savage Species.
    Notice that the author of Savage Species was one of the original DDO game designers...!

    Quote Originally Posted by mediocresurgeon View Post
    Basically, this means that if you are a construct, your creature type can never change due to adding a template (like Lich).
    However, the Pale Master specialty in DDO doesn't apply a template to you. It is an arcane transformation that gives you certain traits of an undead creature, which is similar to D&D spells such as Wraithform. There is no justification to say that the template rules should precisely apply.

  14. #174
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediocresurgeon View Post
    This should mean that a Warforged Lich would be immune to Heal, but could recover hit points through both Reconstruct and Harm.
    The actual quote from the savage species book:

    Construct, Outsider, Undead: These three types reside at the top of the pyramid. Once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a template, it cannot become something else.
    This would imply that either
    1) a construct can never become an undead in the first place.
    or
    2) Once it becomes an undead it cannot be a construct anymore.
    Thelanis

  15. #175
    Hamfather totmacher's Avatar
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    played with it last night, don't mind the lich form being immune to healing, it's a trade off. the whole of the prestige class doesn't make u immune, so i have no problem with that clickie. puts a market up for inflict wands and scrolls

  16. #176
    Community Member wiglin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    played with it last night, don't mind the lich form being immune to healing, it's a trade off. the whole of the prestige class doesn't make u immune, so i have no problem with that clickie. puts a market up for inflict wands and scrolls
    I don't mind the immunity to positive healing either as log as self healing by the pale masters touch ability, or self cast inflict scrolls and wands is fixed. I also think potions should still work even if they create a new potion that only works when in undead form. I was excited about the pale master at first. Kinda gave me a reason to play again, even re-vip'ed myself, but I have no desire to not be self sufficient, as you can with pretty much all other classes.
    Last edited by wiglin; 01-09-2010 at 06:19 PM.
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  17. #177
    Community Member Gum's Avatar
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    The only thing that makes sense to me so far is -50% to self repair spells and immune to all healing spells for WF. Use of negative scrolls, wands, and immune to all healing spells for fleshies. Possible access to some harm/negative spells at some point. Toggle like abilities for undead mode. A dv like per day ability that allows self healing by negative power that can be boosted by action points and intel score. Lots of new raid loot that opens up other possibilities lol
    **As the Great Emu is one with the hill, so am I with the Great Emu.**
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  18. #178
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gum View Post
    The only thing that makes sense to me so far is -50% to self repair spells and immune to all healing spells for WF. Use of negative scrolls, wands, and immune to all healing spells for fleshies. Possible access to some harm/negative spells at some point. Toggle like abilities for undead mode. A dv like per day ability that allows self healing by negative power that can be boosted by action points and intel score. Lots of new raid loot that opens up other possibilities lol
    Would make more sense to me if repair spells worked normally for WF, they are after all still constructs, the Wraith form and Lich form do not alter the character type but allow the character to gain many of the traits of an undead, if they got the undead type they wouldn't have a con score for a start.

    However when using the Wraith or Lich forms, negative energy effects should be halved on warforged, like positive energy effects are normally, added into the Necrotic touch being able to heal the PM, would make it more advantageous for fleshies as they'd gain more healing from it, while Warforged would not.

    The enhancements for Warforged Positive healing should not effect the Negative healing either, overall this would mean that Warforged would get less benefit from the PRC than most fleshies, even though they'd be able to use the Reconstruct/Repair spells, they take SP, while the Touch would not and would be more effective at Healing Fleshy PM's.

    Also, Please add the Stone Bones spell (+3 natural armour to target corporeal undead), would be a nice buff for the undead minions the PM can get.

  19. #179
    Community Member mediocresurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebondevil View Post
    Would make more sense to me if repair spells worked normally for WF, they are after all still constructs, the Wraith form and Lich form do not alter the character type but allow the character to gain many of the traits of an undead, if they got the undead type they wouldn't have a con score for a start.
    My thoughts exactly. Since the character retains their constitution score, they have not adopted the Undead type, but have merely gained the Undead traits.

    Really, though, if Pale Masters could use the Necro Touch ability on themselves for self-healing I doubt anyone would care whether or not they could Reconstruct themselves.

    The nerfing will continue until morale improves!

  20. #180
    Community Member Sarezar's Avatar
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    Most comments that accept the healing immunity assume that a PM will always be grouped with someone who can cast an inflict spell on him, or that a PM will never solo. I apologize for repeating myself, but I strongly believe that if the devs are reluctant on giving the PM any kind of self healing method, then it is vital that they allow PMs to either toggle or dispel the forms (with or without an in-between timer). If for any reason there is no one there to "heal" you, they can become from very dangerous to almost useless. If you get to 5% HP and still have 2:30 minutes on the timer, you will have to run around or hide, and many times you will simply die.

    Yes, it's a trade off, but I don't see how this balances out, the price seems too high.


    PS. Has anyone tested if they give you immunity to Death spells?
    Endure... In enduring, grow strong...
    -- Dak'kon, of the People

    Sarezar

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