Pale Master review

[Raiderone]

The inability to UMD inflict and harm effects onto yourself as a Pale Master in one of the temporary undead forms will be fixed shortly. All effects able to target "Undead Friends" will be able to target the caster as well, if the caster is undead. There will be a few changes to Necrotic Touch to keep this from becoming crazybroken(tm).

So nerfing Necrotic Touch was a way to keep from becoming crazybroken?

Don't worry, not many will want to be a PM now. Necrotic Touch was the best part
of being a PM.
Taking away Metamagic feats from it has made PM a wasted PRE.


The AP costs for being a PM are way to high. You should be able to get the different
skelly's for a one time AP cost.

1AP Archer, 1 AP Knight, 1AP Mage then lvl6 is Type1, lvl 12 is type2 and Lvl18 is type3 without any additional AP cost.

PM's are a unuseable PRE!
1)Not enough Neg Energy Spells.
2)Nerfed Necro Touch.
3)AP costs way too high for all features!
4)Individual Benefits too low based on PRE PM Lvl's6,12,18.

[sephiroth1084]

So nerfing Necrotic Touch was a way to keep from becoming crazybroken?

Don't worry, not many will want to be a PM now. Necrotic Touch was the best part
of being a PM.
Taking away Metamagic feats from it has made PM a wasted PRE. What? Where was this stated? And what exactly do you mean?


The AP costs for being a PM are way to high. You should be able to get the different
skelly's for a one time AP cost.

1AP Archer, 1 AP Knight, 1AP Mage then lvl6 is Type1, lvl 12 is type2 and Lvl18 is type3 without any additional AP cost.

PM's are a unuseable PRE!
1)Not enough Neg Energy Spells.
2)Nerfed Necro Touch. Have they stated how yet?
3)AP costs way too high for all features!
4)Individual Benefits too low based on PRE PM Lvl's6,12,18.

If we get the ability to self-heal cheaply while in the undead forms then their benefits will probably be fairly significant. +4 stacking Int? Sign me up!

[bobbryan2]

If we get the ability to self-heal cheaply while in the undead forms then their benefits will probably be fairly significant. +4 stacking Int? Sign me up!

No self healing. No +4 stacking INT, and no meta magics on necro touch now.

Catch up!

[Auran82]

No self healing. No +4 stacking INT, and no meta magics on necro touch now.

Catch up!

And if you spent the ap to summon skeles, you can't heal them anymore with necro touch.

Oh yeah, and necro touch costs 1sp and 1hp to use.

[sephiroth1084]

No self healing. No +4 stacking INT, and no meta magics on necro touch now.

Catch up!

Was this stated somewhere or just put into effect on Lama?

If stated, where's the info?

What do lich and wraith form do if the stats are no longer stacking?

[bobbryan2]

Was this stated somewhere or just put into effect on Lama?

If stated, where's the info?

What do lich and wraith form do if the stats are no longer stacking?

LOL dude...

Check 4 threads down from this one. The one that says "Latest Pale Master Changes"

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=225869

[sephiroth1084]

Wow. Those changes SUCK! HARD!

[Roziel_Longblade]

Is Necrotic Touch at least an instant cast like the Pally light enhancements?

If it is then it is supplemental dps and that can only be good.
If it has a long animation/cast time then I just dont see the point.

[sephiroth1084]

Is Necrotic Touch at least an instant cast like the Pally light enhancements?

If it is then it is supplemental dps and that can only be good.
If it has a long animation/cast time then I just dont see the point.

Even if it were, with the amount of damage it now does, you might as well just pick up a sword--it will cost you less.

[Roziel_Longblade]

Even if it were, with the amount of damage it now does, you might as well just pick up a sword--it will cost you less.

If the damage was instant it may make the sword damage of some worth.

[Kyrn]

IMO only 3 fixes needs to be done.

1) Necrotic touch only targetable against enemies. In addition, reduce effectiveness (at most 1d per 2 levels, possibly every 3)
2) Let necromancers be able to use inflict wounds/harm spells on themselves.
3) With each rank of pale master, open up more wounds/harm spells to be learnable:
- Rank 1: minor, moderate
- Rank 2: serious, critical
- Rank 3: Harm, mass versions

Alternatively, make Necrotic touch drain hp from enemies at 10%. Though I prefer the first so that necromancers actually have negative damage spells to use.

From what I see, most of the benefits are front-loaded onto that single ability, which makes me question why I should bother getting ranks 2 and 3.

(also, for solving the AI issues, would like to get an AI bar for minions. Though I guess that might be difficult.)

[sephiroth1084]

If the damage was instant it may make the sword damage of some worth.

I don't follow you.

[DevourerOfPancakes]

My biggest gripe with the current implementation of Pale Master is the lack of negative energy spells for wizards. If arcane spells would include decent negative-based nukes, the passive class features would actually mean something (whereas right now, it's simply like getting Fighter Toughness II for 8 AP). The 45% damage and 9% crit on negative spells has the potential to provide a great alternative to cookie cutter fire/cold or acid/lightning nuking, this potential is useless without spells that are actually affected.

What I'd suggest (short of implementing new negative arcane spells) is the following:

* Change Horrid Wilting to deal negative energy damage so it can be affected by Pale Master enhancements. Add a fortitude save for half damage. This would give Pale Masters a signature AoE nuke. While fairly powerful, the spell is limited to living targets. This fits the Pale Master flavor perfectly and should be at an appropriate power level to make the PrE a desirable alternative to cold/fire AoE.

* Change Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee: On a failed save, these spells now deal 1d10 (FoD) or 1d8 (Wail) damage per caster level to living targets, and instantly slay targets vulnerable to instant death effects. This would make the spells useful on monsters with blanket death immunity by acting as a negative energy nuke. They could potentially deal more damage than their cold/fire/electrical counterparts (Polar Ray, Chain Lightning etc.), but are balanced by only affecting living targets, being affected by Spell Resistance, and dealing no damage (rather than half) on a save. This change would also make the Spell Focus: Necromancy feat prerequisites more useful.

Beyond that, implementing Vampiric Touch would go a long way towards making the Pale Master enhancements desirable on low/mid levels, and providing a way to sustain health in Lich/Wraith form that does not depend on UMD or high end raid loot (as neither of those are easily accessible by new players).

[sephiroth1084]

My biggest gripe with the current implementation of Pale Master is the lack of negative energy spells for wizards. If arcane spells would include decent negative-based nukes, the passive class features would actually mean something (whereas right now, it's simply like getting Fighter Toughness II for 8 AP). The 45% damage and 9% crit on negative spells has the potential to provide a great alternative to cookie cutter fire/cold or acid/lightning nuking, this potential is useless without spells that are actually affected.

What I'd suggest (short of implementing new negative arcane spells) is the following:

* Change Horrid Wilting to deal negative energy damage so it can be affected by Pale Master enhancements. Add a fortitude save for half damage. This would give Pale Masters a signature AoE nuke. While fairly powerful, the spell is limited to living targets. This fits the Pale Master flavor perfectly and should be at an appropriate power level to make the PrE a desirable alternative to cold/fire AoE.

* Change Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee: On a failed save, these spells now deal 1d10 (FoD) or 1d8 (Wail) damage per caster level to living targets, and instantly slay targets vulnerable to instant death effects. This would make the spells useful on monsters with blanket death immunity by acting as a negative energy nuke. They could potentially deal more damage than their cold/fire/electrical counterparts (Polar Ray, Chain Lightning etc.), but are balanced by only affecting living targets, being affected by Spell Resistance, and dealing no damage (rather than half) on a save. This change would also make the Spell Focus: Necromancy feat prerequisites more useful.

Beyond that, implementing Vampiric Touch would go a long way towards making the Pale Master enhancements desirable on low/mid levels, and providing a way to sustain health in Lich/Wraith form that does not depend on UMD or high end raid loot (as neither of those are easily accessible by new players).

I'd be in favor of changing Horrid Wilting and of adding other negative energy spells to wizard lists (Vamp Touch, Inflict, etc...) either independently of the PrE or as one of its benefits, but I do not want to see Finger and Wail changed in the fashion you suggest. For one, it would more than double their SP cost, as Maximize and Empower would be applied, which is not a good thing.

[Drayth]

My biggest gripe with the current implementation of Pale Master is the lack of negative energy spells for wizards. If arcane spells would include decent negative-based nukes, the passive class features would actually mean something (whereas right now, it's simply like getting Fighter Toughness II for 8 AP). The 45% damage and 9% crit on negative spells has the potential to provide a great alternative to cookie cutter fire/cold or acid/lightning nuking, this potential is useless without spells that are actually affected.

What I'd suggest (short of implementing new negative arcane spells) is the following:

* Change Horrid Wilting to deal negative energy damage so it can be affected by Pale Master enhancements. Add a fortitude save for half damage. This would give Pale Masters a signature AoE nuke. While fairly powerful, the spell is limited to living targets. This fits the Pale Master flavor perfectly and should be at an appropriate power level to make the PrE a desirable alternative to cold/fire AoE.

* Change Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee: On a failed save, these spells now deal 1d10 (FoD) or 1d8 (Wail) damage per caster level to living targets, and instantly slay targets vulnerable to instant death effects. This would make the spells useful on monsters with blanket death immunity by acting as a negative energy nuke. They could potentially deal more damage than their cold/fire/electrical counterparts (Polar Ray, Chain Lightning etc.), but are balanced by only affecting living targets, being affected by Spell Resistance, and dealing no damage (rather than half) on a save. This change would also make the Spell Focus: Necromancy feat prerequisites more useful.

Beyond that, implementing Vampiric Touch would go a long way towards making the Pale Master enhancements desirable on low/mid levels, and providing a way to sustain health in Lich/Wraith form that does not depend on UMD or high end raid loot (as neither of those are easily accessible by new players).

THat sounds interesting.. at least it would make me want to play a PM. It was the most exciting PrE i had seen in a long time.. but as it stands now.. it is a complete ruibbish waste of time.. hope the Devs fix it...

[Roziel_Longblade]

I don't follow you.

Right now a Wiz swinging a sword is not a lot of damage. A wiz blasting with N.Touch is also not a lot of damage. However it the touch spell were instant the sword and touch damage combined could be worth using.

[DevourerOfPancakes]

I'd be in favor of changing Horrid Wilting and of adding other negative energy spells to wizard lists (Vamp Touch, Inflict, etc...) either independently of the PrE or as one of its benefits, but I do not want to see Finger and Wail changed in the fashion you suggest. For one, it would more than double their SP cost, as Maximize and Empower would be applied, which is not a good thing.

You've got a good point there. While it's quite possible to turn off maximize/empower when facing enemies vulnerable to instant death effects, it's quite a hassle to keep switching them on and back off again. My reasoning was mostly that, when a monster is immune to death spells for balance reasons, it would only be fair to get the next best thing: taking a chunk off their hit points.

With metamagic costs factored in, however, it becomes pretty hard to salvage the idea. Like you say, if they're affected by maximize/empower, it would greatly increase mana cost when the damage is moot. And if they're not affected, they'd be rather poor choices for nuking.

[sephiroth1084]

Right now a Wiz swinging a sword is not a lot of damage. A wiz blasting with N.Touch is also not a lot of damage. However it the touch spell were instant the sword and touch damage combined could be worth using.

Even if it were "instant" they wouldn't stack for somehow more damage.

[Raiderone]

My biggest gripe is that other PRE's are WAY better.
WOW PM get's a total of 20 HP's...
WOW neg energy boost too..too bad only Necro Touch and Ghouls Touch.
And Necro is nerf'd.
We do get a free Skelly... take that Paladins and Fighters who get Supreme Defensive Stance and +8 Str/Con for Fighters...for free no less.

I mean a Free Skelly is way better than auto vorpal on a natural 20 for Assasins III...

Face it. PRE was BAD before NERF. And now it's JUST TERRIBLE...

No love for wizards. Maybe we didn't complain enough???

I cannot wait to see the other Wizard PRE's...

P.S. If they are this bad, work on other PRE's....

[Spisey]

My biggest gripe is that other PRE's are WAY better.
WOW PM get's a total of 20 HP's...
WOW neg energy boost too..too bad only Necro Touch and Ghouls Touch.
And Necro is nerf'd.
We do get a free Skelly... take that Paladins and Fighters who get Supreme Defensive Stance and +8 Str/Con for Fighters...for free no less.

I mean a Free Skelly is way better than auto vorpal on a natural 20 for Assasins III...

Face it. PRE was BAD before NERF. And now it's JUST TERRIBLE...

No love for wizards. Maybe we didn't complain enough???

I cannot wait to see the other Wizard PRE's...

P.S. If they are this bad, work on other PRE's....

+1

Why bring out a sh!tty PrE? Seems counter productive to put time and effort into making something that no one will use....

Trying to find something about it I can break in a positive way to get through my TR's.