Pale Master review

[Ebondevil]

Smart wizards know that although they may get out melee weapons or even (tee hee) Finger scrolls after running out of spellpoints, they're basically a non-contributing joke at this point. That's just fine if they don't actually need to contribute, which is often the case since much of DDO is very very easy.

To say that a zero-mana Wizard is helpless is an oversimplification, but captures the essential truth.

I believe you are wrong, a wizard who knows what they're doing will still be able to contribute but not anywhere near as effectivly as if they had Spell points left, which is why I honestly believe Spell points should recover slowly over time when out of combat, or fighters should get tired from attacking, that would be fair afterall.

[dv8maker123]

to stay on point of the Pale Master comments, if UMD is the only way for healing to viably work I still think this build is going to be a waste of time. Anything other than a high CHA build will be able to be more effective by staying a generalist build with no penalties.

Now back to the melee topic. While a wizard WITH mana is far more effective in all scenarios, I still think it is foolish to say they become a non factor when they are OOM. The posts I am reading almost imply that we become useless, which is hardly the case. Yes we are much better with mana than without..but a well equipped (and built) wiz can still make a serious contribution without spell points. No, not to the degree they can with spell points, but they are far from useless. For the sake of sanity I'm going to stop arguing the case after this, simply because I have leveled one wiz designed for this strategy and one that is not. I am fully cognizant of what one can do, and am frankly surprised at how sternly folks are willing to lobby that they become helpless. Feel free to continue with this philosophy, however you do the community an injustice by trying to convince the majority that this is the case. I will continue to run a successful build that can do both, and drink pots when the SH!T really hits the fan and calls for overdrive.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes, wizards are not completely helpless when they are out of mana, but unless they are specced for it, they are far from a significantly contributing member of the group. You aren't going to take down even one dangerous foe, like an orthon, on their own. Twenty damage per hit (and that's likely with buffs) is not something to write home about.

What exactly is everyone touting the contributing ability of OoM wizards talking about, exactly? Let's get some numbers of some kind. My experience with a wizard designed to be the best caster he can be, is that I can take down weak targets, like trogs and teiflings on my own in some quests. I can step in and put a little bit of damage on the tougher stuff, but not in any very significant fashion. Am I completely helpless? No, but I'm also just not doing anything of any real significance in most cases.

A big time cheap/free attack like what is currently in play will make a tremendous impact in this respect.

[bobbryan2]

I believe you are wrong, a wizard who knows what they're doing will still be able to contribute but not anywhere near as effectivly as if they had Spell points left, which is why I honestly believe Spell points should recover slowly over time when out of combat, or fighters should get tired from attacking, that would be fair afterall.

Firstly, this game doesn't need any more spell point regen. The regen that already exists gives an incredible advantage to casters over any other type of character.

Secondly, A no spellpoint wizard has virtually no use to the party. Now, a wizard thatcan run into melee and regenerate his spellpoints will not be out of action for long... but there's little he can do till he gets 1-200 sp back.

[mediocresurgeon]

Look, this is very simple. Classes with a Spellpoint to Hitpoint ability:
Cleric, Favored Soul, Bard, Ranger, Paladin, Warforged Wizard, Warforged Sorcerer.

Flesh Wizards are not in that list. Allowing Flesh Wizards to take a specialty to gain Spellpoint-to-Hitpoint would be fine, as it is just bringing them to rough parity with many other characters, including those of the same class but different race.

Even if the Pale Male Master could self-heal for 150 pts every 3 seconds for 0 mana, it would not be unbalanced or "crazybroken." A warforged caster can self heal for 300+ points (500+ on critical with 0 investment) for 0 spell points by shield blocking with a Torc. (Acutally, any class that can cast a Cure or Repair spell can manage this.) Pale Masters will still have the unfortunate side effect of not being able to be healed in an emergancy (ie, gets hit by fireball for 300 dmg, but Necrotic Touch is still on cooldown). The 0 SP cost should be recompense for the fact that Necrotic Touch is their only way to self-heal without UMD.

(You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Angelus_dead again.)

Also, a separate point for those who wish to use the Favored Soul "Cure Light At Will Capstone" as a benchmark: Keep in mind that Cure Light can be used on any character. You, the guy next to you, even your summons. Necrotic Touch really only works on the Pale Master and the Pale Master's summons (which are rarely used at endgame for reasons discussed below).

Question Eladrin - Is anything being done (higher hps or abilities to cast protection/resist on self) to the Frostmarrow skeletons? It doesn't really make sense for them to be the Tier III most powerful thing we can summon with all the fire slinging at higher levels. Unless the summons level up as we do so we could summon a blackbone and not have to worry about summoning up something that's going to take 1-2 hits and die?

I agree that summoning something that takes double damage from almost every enemy attack is stupid. Blackbone skeletons should be the level 18 summon; Frostmarrow should be the level 12 summon. And summoning a Frostmarrow skeleton who is going to spam Sleet Storm on your Walls of Fire is no fun, especially if you don't have access to Freedom of Movement. This was badly thought-out in my opinion, and should be revisited by the developers.

[Monkey_Archer]

I agree that summoning something that takes double damage from almost every enemy attack is stupid. Blackbone skeletons should be the level 18 summon; Frostmarrow should be the level 12 summon. And summoning a Frostmarrow skeleton who is going to spam Sleet Storm on your Walls of Fire is no fun, especially if you don't have access to Freedom of Movement. This was badly thought-out in my opinion, and should be revisited by the developers.

Dropping the frostmarrow line for something more interesting would be a good idea IMO.... hmm.... maybe wraith / wheep / quell?

[mediocresurgeon]

Dropping the frostmarrow line for something more interesting would be a good idea IMO.... hmm.... maybe wraith / wheep / quell?

Oh, yes! Give us a Quell! *begs*

[Spisey]

Oh, yes! Give us a Quell! *begs*

Ohh so signed!

[ddoer]

The inability to UMD inflict and harm effects onto yourself as a Pale Master in one of the temporary undead forms will be fixed shortly. All effects able to target "Undead Friends" will be able to target the caster as well, if the caster is undead. There will be a few changes to Necrotic Touch to keep this from becoming crazybroken(tm).

thx. The next request is, could the House J vendor sell Harm scroll?

afaik, only Inflict Serious Wounds scroll is available that inflicts at 3d8+1 per caster level (max 15). The fix won't really solve the self-healing problem without availability of harm scrolls.

[Pyromaniac]

Smart wizards know that although they may get out melee weapons or even (tee hee) Finger scrolls after running out of spellpoints, they're basically a non-contributing joke at this point.

Going with Angelus on this one, I can tell when the arcane caster decides they're out of SP and swinging away....because I have to excessively heal them to keep my 10% xp. Not a good idea for a non-melee focused wiz build to swing away.

[Tumarek]

Smart Wizards dont run out of Spellpoints when they are still needed. It's the same as in PnP and therefore is an essential part of DnD. Blasting out your spells on easy trashmobs makes you a bad wizard, saving it for the fights which are important makes you a good wizard.
Regeneration of SP would be one of the best ways to make this game just silly.

[Favis]

thx. The next request is, could the House J vendor sell Harm scroll?

yes

Regeneration of SP would be one of the best ways to make this game just silly.

Unfortunatly I have to agree.

[LunaCee]

Well... here is a thought, if you feel there should be some form of easily attainable SP recovery. How about adding an enhancement line with Mental Toughness as a prerequisite for tier one, and Improved Mental Toughness for tier three.

Have each tier become available at 4th, 8th, and 12th level. For 2, 4, and 6 AP respectively.

Tier one would give you a *single* use per shrine of this ability. It would give back 10 x Character Level of SP.

That would be 40SP for a 4th level, or 200 SP for a level 20.

Tier two gives two uses per shrine, gives back 1.5 x 10 x Character Level of SP

that would be 120x2 (240) for a 8th level, or 300x2 (600) for a level 20.

Tier three gives three uses per shrine, gives 2 x 10 x Character Level worth of SP back.

which would be 240x3 (720) for a 12th level, or at maximum for a level 20 400x3 (1200) SP.

Easily outdone by somebody with Bauble and Epic Spell Ring or even a stack of mnemonic pots. However I could see this being a *very* useful upgrade of the otherwise lackluster Mental Toughness feat line. As is, we only take it as a prerequisite to get into PrE because 105 SP at level 20 is but one or two more spell casts tops.

Tier three does indeed look the most "broken" until you consider that 12th level is about the point that Con-Op and Torc availability kick in with their situational infinite spell points. At which point... who cares? Also, on average two major mnemonics is a return of 705 SP.

[Talamare2k4]

Well... here is a thought, if you feel there should be some form of easily attainable SP recovery. How about adding an enhancement line with Mental Toughness as a prerequisite for tier one, and Improved Mental Toughness for tier three.

Have each tier become available at 4th, 8th, and 12th level. For 2, 4, and 6 AP respectively.

Tier one would give you a *single* use per shrine of this ability. It would give back 10 x Character Level of SP.

That would be 40SP for a 4th level, or 200 SP for a level 20.

Tier two gives two uses per shrine, gives back 1.5 x 10 x Character Level of SP

that would be 120x2 (240) for a 8th level, or 300x2 (600) for a level 20.

Tier three gives three uses per shrine, gives 2 x 10 x Character Level worth of SP back.

which would be 240x3 (720) for a 12th level, or at maximum for a level 20 400x3 (1200) SP.

Easily outdone by somebody with Bauble and Epic Spell Ring or even a stack of mnemonic pots. However I could see this being a *very* useful upgrade of the otherwise lackluster Mental Toughness feat line. As is, we only take it as a prerequisite to get into PrE because 105 SP at level 20 is but one or two more spell casts tops.

Tier three does indeed look the most "broken" until you consider that 12th level is about the point that Con-Op and Torc availability kick in with their situational infinite spell points. At which point... who cares? Also, on average two major mnemonics is a return of 705 SP.

You realize you went from a feat giving you 100 passive SP to 1200?

Then justified it by saying a 2 items can give you 'infinite SP' (as long as you keep getting hit...)

[LunaCee]

2 Feats and 12 AP to reach that point... don't just skim if you are going to make a comment like that.

[Schwarzie]

You are running into the same mistake the game already did and try to make it worse.

An Arms-Race.

Even more Mana for spellcasters wouldnt make it better, right now they have basically unlimited Mana (through the insanely powerful Torq, ConcOpp Items, tons of pots or bauble/Epic spellStoring Ring) This enhancementline simply would give one more option to fast get Mana back. Which would further buff Spellcasters. Even if in this game Melees are a bit more powerfull through unlimited Gold and therefore Equipment (and not mere basketholders and lootcarriers like in the PnP on high level) i dont really see a reason for this buff. All this buffing of different aspects already gave us mobs with totally silly amounts of hitpoints. Whats next? Trashmobs with 5Million HP?

Why do you need this? Conserving your ressources is one of the key elements of playing a Caster in DnD. Even my Wizard without torq or ConcOpp rarely runs ooM.

[chrislb20]

2 Feats and 12 AP to reach that point... don't just skim if you are going to make a comment like that.

2 feats and 12 ap for 210 passive sp and 1200 clickies of spellpoints per shrine ya every single wizard would make room for it and negate the sorc sp pool.

Skimming is all they needed to do the premise was stupid.

[DANTEIL]

Why do you need this? Conserving your ressources is one of the key elements of playing a Caster in DnD.

This has been one of the most important lessons I've discovered as I've started to do higher level (and very long!) quests. Unfortunately, the first time through a quest I often have no idea what the upcoming fights are or how far it is to the next shrine, and so I have been caught out of mana on several occasions. Not fun and I definitely feel helpless because I am not equipped to do anything else except pull out a wand or two. However, when I've tried to go into conservation mode, I've gotten complaints from others about how this-or-that buff or firewall is missing. So it's definitely a learning curve.

Sorry this wasn't a Pale Master post. Uh, necrotic touch sounds icky cool.

[elyssaria]

Dropping the frostmarrow line for something more interesting would be a good idea IMO.... hmm.... maybe wraith / wheep / quell?

I totally agree to this....

Last step of a PrE should be something extra and a quell with some more interesting abilities would indeed be such extra worth looking forward to.

/Ely

[Maegin]

This has been one of the most important lessons I've discovered as I've started to do higher level (and very long!) quests. Unfortunately, the first time through a quest I often have no idea what the upcoming fights are or how far it is to the next shrine, and so I have been caught out of mana on several occasions. Not fun and I definitely feel helpless because I am not equipped to do anything else except pull out a wand or two. However, when I've tried to go into conservation mode, I've gotten complaints from others about how this-or-that buff or firewall is missing. So it's definitely a learning curve.

Sorry this wasn't a Pale Master post. Uh, necrotic touch sounds icky cool.

I think that the Imp/mental toughness is nice, since thats about the same amount of sp I would spend on buffing the party, and a little help from ap's. Mind you this is coming from a lvl 14 wiz who is his first caster, so. nothing a pot, or spellstoring/necklace clicky cant recover. For everything else, there are scrolls/wands.

Im hoping archmage adds where it counts. cheaper sp and spell flexability (damage too).

Necro touch does sound good in theory, and so do the summons, but in epic, I doubt thats the reason the wizard is there, its just fluff :/ Which sucks, cause the reason you bring a ranger, is because of tempest/barb for FB. So its just cool fluff, nothing broken, but makes things different and ya got a pet to solo with