Pale Master review

[bobbryan2]

It would be a mistake for 12 levels in a non-healer class to give you an ability that close to the capstone of the best healer class (especially considering that qualifying for the capstone is costly).

If a Pale Master wants to self heal, it should cost him resources, either in plat or spellpoints. That would fulfill the gameplay role of reducing the imbalance between mages of Warforged or other races.

I disagree.

There are enough other drawbacks to necrotic touch, not the least of which is that it's self-only for all intents and purposes. But mainly, because Favored souls have big old quickened heals for when things get really rough. Pale Masters wouldn't be able to sit in groups of enemies keeping themselves up in nearly the same capacity.

It would probably be overpowered at level 12, and I would have no problems adding it at level 18, where it would already be balanced.

[Angelus_dead]

It would probably be overpowered at level 12, and I would have no problems adding it at level 18, where it would already be balanced.

There's a saying some game designers have learned: "You shouldn't have to wait 18 levels to start playing your class". (It was observed regarding EQ)

Look, this is very simple. Classes with a Spellpoint to Hitpoint ability:
Cleric, Favored Soul, Bard, Ranger, Paladin, Warforged Wizard, Warforged Sorcerer.

Flesh Wizards are not in that list. Allowing Flesh Wizards to take a specialty to gain Spellpoint-to-Hitpoint would be fine, as it is just bringing them to rough parity with many other characters, including those of the same class but different race.

What does not make sense is for the specialty to not only move a character from a non-healing into a self-healing class, but to also bring him further than nearly every character with healing as a defined class feature, by allowing him the nearly-unique ability to self-heal by spending no other resource than a cooldown timer.

[Calebro]

What does not make sense is for the specialty to not only move a character from a non-healing into a self-healing class, but to also bring him further than nearly every character with healing as a defined class feature, by allowing him the nearly-unique ability to self-heal by spending no other resource than a cooldown timer.

^this^
It absolutely does not make sense. It's even more absurd that the WF players are complaining about it, as they have basically the same self-healing ability as a fleshy Cleric or FvS. The answer for them is simple.
Don't take the form enhancement. There.

[Ranmaru2]

The inability to UMD inflict and harm effects onto yourself as a Pale Master in one of the temporary undead forms will be fixed shortly. All effects able to target "Undead Friends" will be able to target the caster as well, if the caster is undead. There will be a few changes to Necrotic Touch to keep this from becoming crazybroken(tm).

I suspect this will lead to a full party of Pale Master wizards (built as tanks/rogues/etc) doing a shroud shortly after release

edit: Question Eladrin - Is anything being done (higher hps or abilities to cast protection/resist on self) to the Frostmarrow skeletons? It doesn't really make sense for them to be the Tier III most powerful thing we can summon with all the fire slinging at higher levels. Unless the summons level up as we do so we could summon a blackbone and not have to worry about summoning up something that's going to take 1-2 hits and die?

[Favis]

Oops, meant to put (max +5) in there.. in which case it would be weaker then the FVS capstone due to lack of empower healing and possible healing amplification.

We agree then

[Greydeath]

Necrotic Touch allows casters to do something that they couldn't already do--keep killing things without any mana.

Given: Wands, scrolls, simple weapons, etc - you have a very interesting definition of 'could not'

[sephiroth1084]

Given: Wands, scrolls, simple weapons, etc - you have a very interesting definition of 'could not'

Uh...play beyond level 4 much?

[Greydeath]

Uh...play beyond level 4 much?

The original assertation is false - the level is irrelevant

[sephiroth1084]

The original assertation is false - the level is irrelevant

Hardly.

Wizards, unless built in a very particular way, are only as effective as their remaining SP. Wands barely cut it when you get them, and scrolls are even worse. Finally, after the first couple of levels, a wizard with any kind of weapon (including the mediocre choices available to them) is going to both contribute very little and die rather quickly.

[dv8maker123]

Hardly.

Finally, after the first couple of levels, a wizard with any kind of weapon (including the mediocre choices available to them) is going to both contribute very little and die rather quickly.

That statement is incorrect. A WF wiz built correctly can add considerable value in melee. I stand toe to toe with plenty of mobs at level 18, using anything from 2H Paralyzers, Vorpals, Cursing, Banishing, smiting, Wounding, Holy Burst...and so on...Master's touch, Stone Skin, GH, Displace, Haste and reconstruct. All you need (along with said good build). Yes there are some mobs where lower AC wizards are better off standing back, however in the majority of fights a properly built WF can charge in with the best of them. While we are not going to inflict melee damage like a Barb or Ranger, we can certainly do damage, and particularly add value with Stat or effect weapons. All the while standing in our Maximized Empowered firewalls and Acid fogs..."Haste on me"

[Ranmaru2]

Hardly.

Wizards, unless built in a very particular way, are only as effective as their remaining SP. Wands barely cut it when you get them, and scrolls are even worse. Finally, after the first couple of levels, a wizard with any kind of weapon (including the mediocre choices available to them) is going to both contribute very little and die rather quickly.

Finger of Death scrolls work very effectively if coupled with enervation scrolls. They have ~50% chance to bypass Devil/Orthon SR in the vale and enervation scrolls have ~40% chance, so they can be used. I use them on my wizard all the time. Now wands on the other hand...yeah those phase out after gianthold, but you can make good melee wizards and sorcerers.

[sephiroth1084]

That statement is incorrect. A WF wiz built correctly can add considerable value in melee. I stand toe to toe with plenty of mobs at level 18, using anything from 2H Paralyzers, Vorpals, Cursing, Banishing, smiting, Wounding, Holy Burst...and so on...Master's touch, Stone Skin, GH, Displace, Haste and reconstruct. All you need (along with said good build). Yes there are some mobs where lower AC wizards are better off standing back, however in the majority of fights a properly built WF can charge in with the best of them. While we are not going to inflict melee damage like a Barb or Ranger, we can certainly do damage, and particularly add value with Stat or effect weapons. All the while standing in our Maximized Empowered firewalls and Acid fogs..."Haste on me"

The comment was after they have run out of SP. Now, I go into melee a bit with a Dreamspitter on my wizard fairly frequently (I'd consider picking up a couple of other weapons, but I don't have the backpack space or any great desire), which means that you will likely not have Haste, Displacement, Acid Fog or Firewall up, and will not be able to heal yourself via SP (obviously scrolls will still be useful, but slow). And again, this is hardly the case for all wizards and sorcerers.

Finger of Death scrolls work very effectively if coupled with enervation scrolls. They have ~50% chance to bypass Devil/Orthon SR in the vale and enervation scrolls have ~40% chance, so they can be used. I use them on my wizard all the time. Now wands on the other hand...yeah those phase out after gianthold, but you can make good melee wizards and sorcerers.

I honestly haven't ever attempted that, but I'd honestly be surprised to find that strategy working very effectively--60% failure to debuff, then 50% failure to kill (and that's ignoring the same which is probably also around 50-80% successful against you), both with the lengthy-ish scroll animation... I'll go try that out, but I just don't see that working very well. Especially since Orthons and such tend to teleport right to you and start pounding on you as soon as they notice that you're around (such as from the 3d6 damage they take from a made save vs. FoD...).

Which wands to you to kill stuff in GH? I've used the occasional lvl 10 Fireball, Lightning Bolt or (lvl 9) MM wand when low on SP, but I'm doing so more just to be doing something than because I feel I'm actually contributing meaningfully.

Oh, and because kill-stealing with a MM wand is funny. Especially on raid bosses.

[dv8maker123]

After I run out of spell points the ONLY thing I'm doing is running into melee. All of my buffs short of Haste and Displacement last for over half an hour. I have repair critical wands and healers (real clerics or pockets). I also have haste and divine power clickies if needed (as well as my guild sorcerers who also provide haste and fire walls). Certain scenarios call for different strategies, and not all builds can do it, but I simply disagree with the blanket statement that wizards are useless in melee, with or without mana. Now, if done poorly the wizard is going to quickly become a mana sponge on the clerics (not an issue with hirelings), but done correctly its a valuable addition to the battles, especially if the wiz has no nukes left. However, when all else fails...mana pot, problem solved.

[Angelus_dead]

Given: Wands, scrolls, simple weapons, etc - you have a very interesting definition of 'could not'

Not really. He is secretly implying the word "effectively" before it, instead of "technically".

A wizard without spellpoints can technically do an amount of DPS greater than zero, but for realistic purposes it isn't high enough to be noticeable, and people who try to fight that way will just get in trouble or make it worse.

[Calebro]

Oh, and because kill-stealing with a MM wand is funny. Especially on raid bosses.

off topic.

My favorite personal kill steal was with an under-level under-equipped rogue/ranger. As he was under-equipped, he was tired of not bypassing DR and pulled out a wand of CLW.
Result? Killing blow on Adran ir'Karsmore.
I thought it was absolutely hilarious.

/off topic

[Greydeath]

Not really. He is secretly implying the word "effectively" before it, instead of "technically".

Hardly - and a rather amussing assumption on your part. For someone that prides themself on accuracy I am disappointed...

In anyevent, there are more than enough posts demonstrating how wrong sephiroth is, including his own on the subject

[Angelus_dead]

Hardly - and a rather amussing assumption on your part. For someone that prides themself on accuracy I am disappointed...

That's because you are wrong, so for me to be accurate would make you look bad.

Smart wizards know that although they may get out melee weapons or even (tee hee) Finger scrolls after running out of spellpoints, they're basically a non-contributing joke at this point. That's just fine if they don't actually need to contribute, which is often the case since much of DDO is very very easy.

To say that a zero-mana Wizard is helpless is an oversimplification, but captures the essential truth.

[Progen]

So what would happen if say they get the touch at tier 1 like they do now, and at tier 2 they get a version that does slightly more damage, and heals for a reasonable amount (not related to the damage it does or maybe like 1/10th of it) for some amount of spell points? That should make everyone happy, without overpowering fleshy wizards. Also possibly there could be an additional penalty to healing for warforged for balance issues.

Additionally, although I haven't put much thought into it, maybe their could be other free/ very cheap attacks for tier 3 or for the lich and wraith from.

EDIT: Also now that i've had some more thought about it, a big complaint about the forms seem to be the lack of valuable stuff you get from them. I could see having around 5 or 6 different spells only valuable in one or another of those forms. Would also give all that negative energy enhancement some use.

[wiglin]

Again, I thought I would just say, that in reality you will be in lich form less than 50% of the time. 60% of the time is a long as you could, so leave necrotic touch as is. Fleshy wizards will finally be able to do 50% of the time what warforged have been doing all along. And before you bring consumables in the mix. Long time payers have enough plat to buy stacks of scrolls and mana pots, so leaving necrotic touch as it, will allow the newer and less rich player to at least do some of the time what long time warforged arcanes have always been able to do all the time.

When reading the arguments for necrotic touch getting nerfed, one would think we are talking about 100% heals all the time. You will want to be smart about going into lich form, so you have the bonuses when you need them the most, so that puts it about 50% at most. Realistically that may mean only going undead at a few key points in the quest. Having the ability to sustain yourself like warforged wizards, warforged sorcerers, halfling anything, clerics, bards, fvs, and pretty much anyone with plat and umd does need anything else to balance it.

[Schwarzie]

I completely agree to the above poster.

The only point is, should a usable selfheal cost sp or not. For all of the above it is a simple no. They all can use various scrolls (Heal or reconstruct). The invested money to buy scrolls is irrelevant if you have even one high level toon.

I wouldnt see a problem if you could heal use your Negative energy Touch on yourself every 6 seconds. This would still cost you time, and would only be feasible if you are in the Undeadform. And in comparison to the FvS Capstone, it can be used all the time, it can be used on others (ok, you could do the same with the touch, but on a much short range and only on other Wizards in undeadform), and it costs less Enhancementpoints. And most Fvs should have even some nice Enhancements for this to make it worthwhile.