Which is more endgame viable??

[Jalpa7]

18 Pally/ 2 monk Hunter of the dead 3 (Halfling)

or 6 Pally/14 cleric Hunter of the dead 1/ max dv's (Drow)

pro's and con's of each?

[cyberguy]

From what I have read/heard, Knight of the Challice is more viable for endgame as evil outsiders make up most of the mobs you run into.

[KKDragonLord]

KotC TWF adds more DPS to a comparably lower DPS class such as paladin, that makes people consider you to be contributing a bit more than regular pallys and dislike you less for not being a barbarian or ranger.

Hunter of the Dead adds healing amplification, which paired with High HP will give you more damage mitigation, saving resources on end-game where AC is useless unless you are a full-AC build. This is quite good although ppl who only care about DPS will not see it that way. The monk evasion is always worth it, going halfling makes up for a good deal of dps. Just make sure to go TWF of course.

I wouldnt ever make a casting class with 6lvls of anything, you lose too much spells and SPs that way and those are quite important.

Then again, it might be ok, just be prepared to be prejudiced against because ppl will assume that you wont be good enough at healing and wont be contributing enough on DPS.
Even though, if played right, you will be keeping yourself alive, helpin people out and swinging about all at the same time.

[Aaxeyu]

18 Pally/ 2 monk Hunter of the dead 3 (Halfling)

or 6 Pally/14 cleric Hunter of the dead 1/ max dv's (Drow)

pro's and con's of each?

Both builds are really bad for endgame.

[KKDragonLord]

Both builds are really bad for endgame.

lol

see this guy? ^

remember when i talked about prejudice?

don't mind him much, ppl are a lot more critical of things (i.e less than MAX dps) on the boards, where the ePeen is all the rage, than they are on the game.

[Kriogen]

18 Pally/ 2 monk Hunter of the dead 3 (Halfling)

or 6 Pally/14 cleric Hunter of the dead 1/ max dv's (Drow)

pro's and con's of each?

Pal18/Monk2 sounds OK as Knight.

Cleric14/Pal6 is not. I wouldn't even build a char like that. Cleric12/Pal6/Monk2 would be better for example. It counts as 'fun' build and not 'I R epic endgame raider' build.

[Jalpa7]

How does this look for a base start for a WF monk paladin

Enhancements will depend on either Koc or HoD.

Just want input on feat selection and stas plz.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

WF Monk Paladin
Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(18 Paladin \ 2 Monk) 
Hit Points: 258
Spell Points: 259 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 17
Will: 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity            16                    17
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               14                    14
Charisma             14                    18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                     7
Bluff                 2                     4
Concentration         5                    22
Diplomacy             2                     4
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     4
Heal                  2                     2
Hide                  3                     3
Intimidate            2                     4
Jump                  3                     3
Listen                2                     2
Move Silently         3                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  2                     2
Swim                 -1                    -1
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Fortification


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)

[Gnorbert]

ok, that looks pretty horrible. Do NOT go finesse on this build. Finesse can be fun on a lot of things but this is not one of them.

Warforged are hard to make into paladins, and VERY difficult to make into good TWF paladins. just no.

Stick to Drow or Halfling as you first said and you will need to get Tomes for this.

Halfling
Str: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 16

Or Drow:
Str: 16
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 16

[KKDragonLord]

ok, that looks pretty horrible. Do NOT go finesse on this build. Finesse can be fun on a lot of things but this is not one of them.

Warforged are hard to make into paladins, and VERY difficult to make into good TWF paladins. just no.

Stick to Drow or Halfling as you first said and you will need to get Tomes for this.

My thoughts exactly, Str is very important for pallys no matter what.

Stat points on Wis for AC would only make much sense on a Full AC build, in which case the PrE would have to be Defender of Siberys, with a shield and CE.
Without those, Wis is mostly a dump stat.

[hermespan]

My thoughts exactly, Str is very important for pallys no matter what.

Stat points on Wis for AC would only make much sense on a Full AC build, in which case the PrE would have to be Defender of Siberys, with a shield and CE.
Without those, Wis is mostly a dump stat.

and you need 13 *natural* int to get CE. A tome doesn't cut it, unless I have a bugged character.
smite is a really good way to get and keep agro from raid bosses.

I'd like to add that taking fortification feats:
Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Fortification

...is a bad idea. you can get a heavy fort (100% crit mitigation, damage rolled normally) helmet in necropolis (minos legens) for 20 tapestries and it's usable at level 11. It also gives you another toughness which stacks with the toughness feat, which is still necessary to get the toughness PrE's. Never use a feat to get something you can easily get on an item unless it's a pre-requisite for something else. (such as mobility, needed for spring attack)

; )

As well that is one **** cool looking helmet.

[KKDragonLord]

and you need 13 *natural* int to get CE. A tome doesn't cut it.
smite is a really good way to get and keep agro from raid bosses.

I'd like to add that taking fortification feats:
Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Fortification

...is a bad idea. you can get a heavy fort helmet in necropolis (minos legens) for 20 tapestries and it's usable at level 11. It also gives you another toughness which stacks with the toughness feat. Never use a feat to get something you can easily get on an item unless it's a pre-requisite for something else. (such as mobility, needed for spring attack)

; )

Not to mention the Healing Immunity it provides

[bandyman1]

and you need 13 *natural* int to get CE. A tome doesn't cut it, unless I have a bugged character.

Your character is bugged.

Starting stat, level-up points, and tomes all count toward making the pre-reqs for ANY feat.

Enhancements will not.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

and you need 13 *natural* int to get CE. A tome doesn't cut it, unless I have a bugged character.

Tomes always count.

[Aaxeyu]

lol

see this guy? ^

remember when i talked about prejudice?

don't mind him much, ppl are a lot more critical of things (i.e less than MAX dps) on the boards, where the ePeen is all the rage, than they are on the game.

Sigh...

It's not prejudicism to say that a 14 cleric / 6 hotd paldin is a bad build for endgame. It's common sense.
Hotd is so much weaker than the other paladin PrEs that it's plain rude to say that it's a viable way to go.

But I guess you are a follower of the 5/1 and 11/1 philosophy?
Hey build what every you want, there will always be people who can carry you through the quests and raids!!

[KKDragonLord]

Sigh...

It's not prejudicism to say that a 14 cleric / 6 hotd paldin is a bad build for endgame. It's common sense.
Hotd is so much weaker than the other paladin PrEs that it's plain rude to say that it's a viable way to go.

But I guess you are a follower of the 5/1 and 11/1 philosophy?
Hey build what every you want, there will always be people who can carry you through the quests and raids!!

sigh...

ePeen detected

put it away please.

nothing wrong with damage mitigation and self healing instead of pure DPS

Its true it wont be a L337 min/max build, but even endgame has room for different gameplay styles.

[LAWPRE]

I would not combine Pal/Monk for anything except for HotD as the FoL adds to it. So, as KotC is the endgame build, I would use something else. Still, you would get a Wis bump to AC and evasion. However, that means keeping your Ref sv high enough to take advantage and adding points to Wis.

Also, they just made some changes to the Monk (see Monk forum for thread) that make higher levels splashes much more viable. However, that would take away from tier 3 KotC.

Rogue 2 gets you evasion and more choice on Armor as well as some SA. I would go that route instead or stay pure.

[KKDragonLord]

Rogue 2 gets you evasion and more choice on Armor as well as some SA. I would go that route instead or stay pure.

and rogue haste clikie

[Jalpa7]

Taking everything everyone has said into consideration I have redone the build to be as follows:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Undead Pally 
Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 235 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 13
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         10                    10
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma             16                    18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                    -3
Bluff                 3                     4
Concentration         0                     0
Diplomacy             3                     4
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                     4
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  0                    -5
Intimidate            3                     4
Jump                  3                     0
Listen                0                     0
Move Silently         0                    -5
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     8
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  0                     0
Swim                  3                    -5
Tumble                n/a                  n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Adamantine Body
Enhancement: Follower of the Lord of Blades
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend II


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Bladesworn Transformation


Level 8 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light I


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning II
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude II


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning III


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 16 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light III


Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Saves Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III

Is this along a better line of thinking?

[Matuse]

I wouldn't build a character with less than 12 con, unless it was a hagglebot who was never going to fight anything, ever.

sigh...

ePeen detected

Your detector is broken. More accurately; you need to learn what the word means.

nothing wrong with damage mitigation and self healing instead of pure DPS

And what aspect of Hunter Of The Dead provides even the tiniest sliver of damage mitigation? Being immune to level drain? Certainly an occasionally useful ability, but it hardly qualifies as damage mitigation. Hell, it's only even useful on like 4 kinds of opponents in the game, and for most of them, Deathward works fabulously (better, actually, since it stops more stuff). A PrE choice to ward off ONE kind of Beholder eye beam does not strike me as a great or even very viable choice.

HotD gives some healing amp, but otherwise includes no "self healing". Maybe you're confusing it with something else.

18/2 HotD is not a viable endgame build. Not the way an 18/2 KotC or DoS is. The cleric split is just a bad idea at any level. And contrary to your feelings about how everyone should be just as gimp as they like so that everyone they group with has to be saddled with a boat anchor for a teammate, the OP did ask for MOST VIABLE ENDGAME.

It's not like anyone is taking an original suggestion of using scimitars and saying "no no, you should go khopesh, it's an extra 4% damage!" or whatever. The qualitative difference between KotC and HotD is -vast-.

[KKDragonLord]

lol

see this guy? ^

remember when i talked about prejudice?

don't mind him much, ppl are a lot more critical of things (i.e less than MAX dps) on the boards, where the ePeen is all the rage, than they are on the game.

Neg rep, oh my, don't talk bad about DPS or the boards.

Hey Jalpa, what are you thinking? If you dont have comparable DPS to a barbarian or a ranger, or comparable healing to a pure Healer (preferrably a FvS) your character shouldn't be played! And stay away from useless PrEs that don't increase your DPS.

Also, being healed easier, requiring less SP per healing and having immunity to some brutal effects are not going to help you survive at all.

/sarcasm

i thought i had made clear i wasnt saying those builds were optimal, just playable. People won't always auto-squelch him or avoid grouping with him for making those builds.

I agree with you on the Con though, less than 12 on a melee is not good.