New Difficulty Feedback: Casual

[quickgrif]

I'm assuming you champions of challenge are all permadeath guilds right. RIGHT?!
If not - you're being lazy!

Heaven forbit there should be an option button quests that says "fun" or "exploration mode" or "casual" or anything like that... cause everones here for uber loot raids and high end grind...

Well I'm not here for that, I'm here for fun! And I'm proud to put up my hand fellow DDOers and say "I am lazy!"
I'm drawing a line in the sand! Its time to stand up (if you can) fellow casual gamers and say - no greensteel for me! No superior potency VII! I'll get by at level 10 (as it gets hard after that) in my korthos gear without having to ransack elite tempest spine or camp the Auction house!

Now is the time fellow DDOers that all lazy men should stand up (or stay sitting its all good) and be counted. To climb to the top of that hill (or leather ottoman) and state with pride "I am lazy - but here I am!" (Or at least think about doing it)
To cry without shame int that dark night of the unending years while we pat our beer bellies I used to raid and do corpse runs in EQ you youngsters but darn it all those days are behind me... I have a family now!

Have a family and three kids as well and I have been playing mmos since Meridian 59 and I still managed to learn the game just fine with my limited time

[Ishbel]

(Pure awesomeness)

Nice! It's shocking, but not everyone is interested in raiding and grinding forever. Maybe they'll get there someday, casually. But maybe not.

[Shassa]

"I used to raid and do corpse runs in EQ, you youngsters, but darn it all those days are behind me... I have a family now!"

Haha... that's me. +1

As many good memories I have of oldtime EQ I'm not sure I could put myself through that wear and tear again.

[Turtlsdown]

"I used to raid and do corpse runs in EQ, you youngsters, but darn it all those days are behind me... I have a family now!"

Amen to that.

[Shassa]

In fact! *starts speaking like an old fart*

All you DDO fellers, even Permadeathers, you're all weak! Weak I tell you! Everquest circa 1999 was a Manly Man's game!

What is this "map" you have? Even on day one, Everquest had fifty times the territory as DDO today and we had no... map. Use terrain as markers and like it, mister! Zones could take twenty minutes to cross, too.

And your zipping here and there with teleporting boat rides... We had to wait thirty minutes for that boat! And the ride could take thirty minutes more! If you lagged off the boat, you got to swim in a humongous ocean with no land in sight for hours but plenty of sharks to help you back to your bind point.

Even the old DDO death penalty of xp debt was for namby-pamby weaksauce kobold huggers! In Everquest we lost a huge chunk of experience and if that meant deleveling and wiping out a whole day's worth of experience, then so be it! Not only that, but you'd have to go trapsing naked to your corpse before all your belongings disappeared on it. If you could get to it, that is. Might have to find a Necromancer to summon your corpse to a safer place first. These corpse runs could take hours, especially if your bind point was on another continent.

If you got blinded in early EQ, your monitor went TOTALLY blank! Couldn't even see your UI. Take that!

Auction Houses? What the heck are those? Sit in Eastern Commonlands and listen to shouts for a few hours if you want something. Now that's a challenge!

You want a meatgrinding death trap? Try being faced with the entire dungeon of baddies from Befallen on one side of the zone line, and a lunatic NPC Dark Elf carving everybody up on the other side! The trains were magnificent... sorta like what the old geezer says in Korthos, "Once they get your scent, they won't stop until you're DEAD." Afterwards the whole area would look like Jonestown, the morning after.

Isn't it great that if you started off as a Wood Elf that one false step in your starting town of Kelethin meant instant death? Although, any one of a thousand different things in that game brought instant death.

*speaking normally again*

People run private servers that play by those old rules. If challenge is what people want then by all means, knock yourself out.

[krud]

Learning curve is steeper because Turbine needs to clean its tutorial up to help explain things like lfg and auction and mail system. Not to mention the poor description method for many of the skills, feats, spells and so forth.

Even with good desriptions it isn't easy figuring how it all fits together when building new toons. A good description still isn't going to tell you "this feat sucks, because the way the game is set up". I perservered, as did many others, but that was only thru some dedication and extensive forum searches. Of course, it's much easier to correct than it was when I joined, but still, is everyone expected to come peruse the forums in order to play? Do people opposed to this only want dedicated players to play DDO? Based on the negative replies, that seems to be the gist it. "Only dedicated players need apply"

[Tiggyr]

DDO for me has always been about interesting quests done with a modicum of speed with a good group in the one or two hours I have free in the occasional evening. Anything that makes that even easier to accomplish is fine with me. I know theres content out there for the grinders - lrd knows I've dreamt about my own 6 item greensteel build, but for some of us thats not an option. And while we dream its nice to still be able to feel like I'm playing a game and doig moderately well.
I cheers to Turbine for throwing some (not insignificant!) crumbs the way of the casual gamer - I say thank you sirs and m'aams!

I say now is the time of the casual gamer! (until we run Epic DQ and get absolutely SMASHED but hey - that'd kind of fun too in a way... reminisces about the choo-choo-train-of-pain that was Castle Mistmoore)

If challenge is what people want then by all means, knock yourself out.

Totally agree... in fact - why not really set a *real* challange - open up epic levels - but only to those between say 10 and 13, AND make it permadeath. There a challange for ya McFly! Or what are ya - chicken?!

[quickgrif]

Even with good desriptions it isn't easy figuring how it all fits together when building new toons. A good description still isn't going to tell you "this feat sucks, because the way the game is set up". I perservered, as did many others, but that was only thru some dedication and extensive forum searches. Of course, it's much easier to correct than it was when I joined, but still, is everyone expected to come peruse the forums in order to play? Do people opposed to this only want dedicated players to play DDO? Based on the negative replies, that seems to be the gist it. "Only dedicated players need apply"

So lets just make everything a cookie cutter build with no creative complexity and lets just make it go down the hall kill a few things and complete.

And for your info I did not use the forums as I should of at the start. So how did I become a better player? Did I demand it become simpler or that they need to make everything so I can do it the first time? No.

Did I figure out how to make the perfect build the first time and just roll through content? No I rerolled many many times and sucked at it at it for awhile.

I don't expect everyone to just play like experts, I love new players in my group and love to help them learn and grow with the game.

But come on can you tell me that normal mode is too hard for anyone even trying at the slightest to learn? Will you wipe in normal at times, sure, guess what you can go back in and do it again taking the lesson from the last failure to succeed.

[Catholicon]

Casual does nothing to prepare you for end game content or raids. So there is no point in having it.

Then don't play Casual. Problem solved.

No go off and play your solo elites and let the rest of us enjoy playing the game to have fun.

[Tiggyr]

So how did I become a better player? Did I demand it become simpler or that they need to make everything so I can do it the first time? No.

I dont see anyone on the forums demanding the game be made simpler. I see Turbine offering another way to make the game more accesable to some people without making any changes to the other existing modes of play.

DDO has always been about accessability. Turbine are just sticking wit that ethos - ad kudos to em for that. Ethos? Kudos? What next MS DOS?

[krud]

So lets just make everything a cookie cutter build with no creative complexity and lets just make it go down the hall kill a few things and complete.

And for your info I did not use the forums as I should of at the start. So how did I become a better player? Did I demand it become simpler or that they need to make everything so I can do it the first time? No.

Did I figure out how to make the perfect build the first time and just roll through content? No I rerolled many many times and sucked at it at it for awhile.

I don't expect everyone to just play like experts, I love new players in my group and love to help them learn and grow with the game.

But come on can you tell me that normal mode is too hard for anyone even trying at the slightest to learn? Will you wipe in normal at times, sure, guess what you can go back in and do it again taking the lesson from the last failure to succeed.

If you have time to work thru it like you and I did, sure. Not everyone has that time or dedication.

I recall when I first joined it was exactly how Tiggyr described it. I joined up with 4 other RL friends, who got together one or two nights a week to just play some D&D with friends. They had no intentions of ever doing any grind, rerolling endlessly, raiding, or visiting the forums. They stuck with it for 2 years, running almost every quest in game, and eventually hitting level 16 (with only one toon). We sucked, but that wasn't the point. Casual setting would have been a perfect fit for them, for those times when they just wanted to chill with some friends and progress a little. There is a place for casual setting, even though many here cannot imagine what it's like to play like that.

[quickgrif]

If you have time to work thru it like you and I did, sure. Not everyone has that time or dedication.

I recall when I first joined it was exactly how Tiggyr described it. I joined up with 4 other RL friends, who got together one or two nights a week to just play some D&D with friends. They had no intentions of ever doing any grind, rerolling endlessly, raiding, or visiting the forums. They stuck with it for 2 years, running almost every quest in game, and eventually hitting level 16 (with only one toon). We sucked, but that wasn't the point. Casual setting would have been a perfect fit for them, for those times when they just wanted to chill with some friends and progress a little. There is a place for casual setting, even though many here cannot imagine what it's like to play like that.

And again I ask if normal is not easy enough for what you described?

[tolana]

I dont see anyone on the forums demanding the game be made simpler. I see Turbine offering another way to make the game more accesable to some people without making any changes to the other existing modes of play.

DDO has always been about accessability. Turbine are just sticking wit that ethos - ad kudos to em for that. Ethos? Kudos? What next MS DOS?

first sentence is key here. you are right you don't see anyone on the forums asking that the game be made easier. you see people asking for stuff like guild housing, bug fixes that have been ignored for ages, more content at high levels, i could go on and on. but instead of doing what players ask them to do, turbine uses develepor time for this. casual play is not something that is going to break the game but ignoring your PAYING player base will. this will not keep players playing or spending money. if you want income it usually helps to listen to what the customer wants and is willing to pay for. then provide said product, this is the big failure here.

[Tiggyr]

first sentence is key here. you are right you don't see anyone on the forums asking that the game be made easier. you see people asking for stuff like guild housing, bug fixes that have been ignored for ages, more content at high levels, i could go on and on. but instead of doing what players ask them to do, turbine uses develepor time for this. casual play is not something that is going to break the game but ignoring your PAYING player base will. this will not keep players playing or spending money. if you want income it usually helps to listen to what the customer wants and is willing to pay for. then provide said product, this is the big failure here.

I'm assuming you have a background in demographic analysis and microtransaction business fundamentals? I'd wager that, you know, turbine might have some idea how to run a MMO now.

And heck its something *I* am looking forward to and *I* am a paying customer. Roll on fun times!

[krud]

And again I ask if normal is not easy enough for what you described?

for the lower levels, probably. At higher levels not so much. Gimped builds and subpar equipment begin to show more. Quests get fewer, longer, and more difficult, culminating in stuff like amrath. Remember the outcry from vets when dreaming dark came out? "it's too easy". If vets had their way, that wouldn't have been an option for the casual group.

I dont see anyone on the forums demanding the game be made simpler. I see Turbine offering another way to make the game more accesable to some people without making any changes to the other existing modes of play.

maybe it was a common complaint in exit polls.

[Zenako]

I dont see anyone on the forums demanding the game be made simpler. I see Turbine offering another way to make the game more accesable to some people without making any changes to the other existing modes of play.

DDO has always been about accessability. Turbine are just sticking wit that ethos - ad kudos to em for that. Ethos? Kudos? What next MS DOS?

In the past the frequent retort from Turbine on things like this was that the change was being driven by analysis of EXIT surveys from those players who decided to leave the game. At some level, they can presume that everyone still in the game is at least happy enough with what they have to stay around. Those who are leaving, why? If it could be fixed (whatever cause was being cited) then perhaps those customers could be enticed to have stayed with the game.

We are not privy to either the results of those surveys or the volume of them. I do hope they factor in the "econmic value" of the opinion that is leaving. The lost revenue of a VIP, Premium or freeloader, is very different. VIP is a constant revenue stream that can serve as a baseline. Premium provides spurts of income as play and demand (and new things) come into the game. Make nothing new, and the revenue from the Premium portion of the player base will dwindle a lot (but new stuff carries development cost.) The income levels to Turbine would be most sensitive in this area, so to keep that revenue stream up, you need to keep new stuff flowing (which helps to retain VIP's as well.) A freeloader is just a potential revenue source, but unless they have actually morphed into a Premium grade account, they are still a net 0 on the bottom line (and perhaps a net -x due to server loads, etc...)

Game mechanic changes like Grazing hits, were purported to be the result of too many exiting players complaining about how hard it was to hit monsters in the game. What many long time players suspect, is that the actual to hit numbers were fine, but that what many new players were experiencing were a combination of factors. Not being close enough to the target to hit with your weapon (depending on how you have your game set up, it can be easy to misjudge how close (or not) you really are.) It could have been running behind a mob and missing (client/server lag and true position offset so that while it looks like you are close enough, the server figures the mob is really another half step ahead of you and you whiff.) Not using suitable facing so the 120 arc infront of you is not used. I have seen new players swing away madly, and continually miss....the mobs attacking them from behind. Not sure how other games work it, but facing is really important in DDO. All those things were probably as big if not bigger source of missing than just not having enough attack bonus.

That made it confusing to many vets? Missing? How are you missing? Then we hear the tales of the low strength wizard swinging the greataxe and having trouble. It seems clear then that many players never look at any of the details of how the game or ruleset even works, and just want a toon to mash mobs with. So we get grazing hits, so even the most borked build can manage to hit/hurt no matter how slightly any mob in the game at least a high percentage of the time.

So I suspect, they were getting a lot of exit complaints about how the quests were too hard...too hard for the those who also had the issues above...

[Maxelcat]

I'm looking forward to casual.

mean more people will try out dungeons by themselves and get the experience of what to expect instead of going in blind and hosing PUGS.

[Razcar]

By 14 up I would think all good raiders are part of a guild anyways, and if not then I'm sure they're used to the fact that P.U.Grouping never works anyway!

But there you have it. PUG raids used to work quite well. Some exceptions of course, but in general. Now they work less well. With Casual they might work even worse.

And that is a bit sad, since it forces older players deeper into their guilds and their networks, and segregates the game even more. Because on Casual you won't be challenged, you won't learn, and you won't improve. There's no need there for tactics, equipment, knowledge or skills that ARE needed in raids. New players that want to raid will give up on PUG raiding if Casual players with e.g. no Fortification, low skill and non-functioning builds might make these raids uncompleatable, and with the veteran guilds hidden away the new players might have no other option than to keep wiping, stop raiding, or quit.

The only logical result of this development is for the devs to introduce a Casual setting for the raids as well. That might have been their plan all along, I do not know. Then DDO will get two completely different type of audiences who are in essence playing two completely different types of games. Anyone up for Casual ToD? Bring your coal and your masterwork shuriken.

[Catholicon]

Well if there wasn't Casual then those players may not be interested in playing DDO at all.

If they enjoy blasting through Casual, they might actually in all probability maybe even BE bothered to learn tactics to play those quests on Normal, Hard or even 1337 like all you other Uber awesomes who care so much.

If you build it, they will come. If they like it, they will stay. If they care, they will learn.

[Spiffyspiffy]

What is this "map" you have? Even on day one, Everquest had fifty times the territory as DDO today and we had no... map. Use terrain as markers and like it, mister! Zones could take twenty minutes to cross, too.

On day one of EQ, zone LINES could take 20 minutes to cross. Loading was silly.

If you could get to it, that is. Might have to find a Necromancer to summon your corpse to a safer place first.

Newb. That was not a power Necromancers had during the really old days. That power was after Fear and Hate.