New Difficulty Feedback: Casual

[Favis]

Class: L20 Bard.
Spec: Spellsinger
Gear Level: Beginner --- I recently hit 20 and have been running shroud gathering mats to make my greensteal.
Suggestion: More shrines in the instances

The first thing that I noticed about this instance is that there appeared to be exactly 0 dungeon scaling in the number of mobs presents. The mobs themselves seemed weaker than the "Normal" version, but I still decided to use a Banisher on them since they had too many hit points for my "normal" gear. The fact that there are some fairly aggressive self healing clerics presents meant that trying to instant kill them was the way to go.

I managed to Charm Monster my way to the part where the 4 air elementals show up. At that point, they proceeded to knock me off and pull a bunch of the other mobs present in the general vicinity. The elementals did chain knock me down several times, and with the trash beating on me, it was clear that I wasn't going to be getting past this point. I immediately ddoor'ed out.

The thing that I felt most lacking was the lack of shrines along the path. By the time that I reached the elementals, I had been reduced to about 20% of my starting spell points. I will admit that I didn't pay that close attention, but I don't recall seeing a shrine at the start of the instance. I wouldn't have minded clearing my way to the elementals, running back to the shrine and restoring my spell points to full. I remember from the Korthos days that most of the instance on the easier difficulty levels had shrines right at the start of them. In the strongest terms possible, I suggest that all dungeons in casual mode have shrines right at the start and/or that points where you cannot return to the previous area.

I understand that some of the players here can and probably do solo this instance with their toons. However, since I'm consider myself a casual player and I can state that in my mind, RwtD as it stands now isn't "casual" on casual mode.


-Imya

How long is the cooldown timer on Shrines in casual 15 min like i normal?
If that is that case makeing the cooldown on Shrines in casual to 5 min would solve Imya prolem (I think).

[Babumbalaboo]

On the issue of raid flagging or running dungeons for special named items...

The reasons I would have for running casual would be either because I don't have time to run with a group, or because I'm not in the mood to run with a group. Occasionally I might join a full group casual run when I just want to sit back and relax rather than actually getting my game on, but for the most part it'd be for the two first reasons.

That said, I would certainly like to get some progress toward achieving the bigger goals, but I'd be happy with some sub-par loot and a bit of XP. I don't care if they allow you to get named items and raid flagging on casual difficulty. It hasn't felt like too much of a grind to me so far, therefore adding an obsolete difficulty will do nothing to diminish my morale.

[SheaHalley]

Class: L20 Bard.
Spec: Spellsinger
Gear Level: Beginner --- I recently hit 20 and have been running shroud gathering mats to make my greensteal.
Suggestion: More shrines in the instances

The first thing that I noticed about this instance is that there appeared to be exactly 0 dungeon scaling in the number of mobs presents. The mobs themselves seemed weaker than the "Normal" version, but I still decided to use a Banisher on them since they had too many hit points for my "normal" gear. The fact that there are some fairly aggressive self healing clerics presents meant that trying to instant kill them was the way to go.

I managed to Charm Monster my way to the part where the 4 air elementals show up. At that point, they proceeded to knock me off and pull a bunch of the other mobs present in the general vicinity. The elementals did chain knock me down several times, and with the trash beating on me, it was clear that I wasn't going to be getting past this point. I immediately ddoor'ed out.

The thing that I felt most lacking was the lack of shrines along the path. By the time that I reached the elementals, I had been reduced to about 20% of my starting spell points. I will admit that I didn't pay that close attention, but I don't recall seeing a shrine at the start of the instance. I wouldn't have minded clearing my way to the elementals, running back to the shrine and restoring my spell points to full. I remember from the Korthos days that most of the instance on the easier difficulty levels had shrines right at the start of them. In the strongest terms possible, I suggest that all dungeons in casual mode have shrines right at the start and/or that points where you cannot return to the previous area.

I understand that some of the players here can and probably do solo this instance with their toons. However, since I'm consider myself a casual player and I can state that in my mind, RwtD as it stands now isn't "casual" on casual mode.


-Imya

I may come off as a jerk but we already have people complaining "Casual" is too hard? Really? What setting would you like to them to implement? Stasis? Where all mobs are held in permanent hold mode so you can walk up and auto crit with your vorpal. Not every class in this game can solo effectively, Spellsinger bard I would venture to say is one of those classes. If they think Casual mode is a necessary evil to attract a less powergaming crowd more power to em, but for there to be complaints already that its to hard is sad. Play the game folks, learn the builds and tatics of the quests don't just auto complain something is too hard because you fail once.

[techwench]

In the strongest terms possible, I suggest that all dungeons in casual mode have shrines right at the start and/or that points where you cannot return to the previous area.

I already said why I support casual mode and won't go into another long-winded post...but this suggestion defeats the purpose of running new content on casual for pre-emptive/pre-normal/pre-grouping exploration and flower sniffing.

/absolutely not signed

[Karranor]

So far it is pretty good. Very easy, but I think a good thing as it will make it easier for people to stick with the game.

The XP is drastically smaller so I think it fits with the difficulty. Sure you can now play the easy dungeon but you get little for it.

From what I have heard from new players I think this is going to be a great way for them to feel like they are getting things done and learning the game. I have a handful of new people in my guild and I think we forget how hard some of this stuff was once when we didn't know the game, had terrible gear, no idea what the quest was about walking into it blind hoping the three cure light potions we were lucky enough to pull out of breakables lasts...

So far it is a good thing.

Oh and thanks for giving me another reason to enter every quest in the game... again! hehe.... UGH!

[die]

As for elite / casual reflecting what kind of items drop . i ve ran so many elite raid 's were no one got any thing ..so it sounds like its a total random thing any way . personaly i dont care i went from almost 16 hours a day playing this game too less than a hour a day . ive seen it all i dont care any more .

[Remmy3]

Infact the idea that anyone is belittled for choosing their type of gameplay is appaling. Let people enjoy the game they way they want it.

I completely agree with this. I have a dream....

[Newtons_Apple]

Please tell me that flagging quests do NOT have casual mode. I would hate to have people in my raid group who could not complete the flagging quests on normal in the raid.

so very


/signed

[Pyromaniac]

Are you serious...come on are those new players really having that much trouble?...

Yes there are, I played with a ton of them on Thelanis leveling up my last character. I hope this didn't take up too much development time, but most of the new players to DDO seem to need it, sadly.

[Chai]

Yes there are, I played with a ton of them on Thelanis leveling up my last character. I hope this didn't take up too much development time, but most of the new players to DDO seem to need it, sadly.

Yes absolutely. The number one thing that makes quests easier for experienced players is metagaming. After running the same quest on multiple toons 20 times over, knowing where all the traps are and which ways to go and such make the game alot easier. The new players not only dont have decent gear, they cant metagame their way through quests. Things we take for granted having played the game a few years are totally new concepts to a new player. Like the rest of us, they will learn in time.

Its time to bring back XP debt...

You mean the other topic there was 50 threads about, littered with complainers and people who couldnt hack it. At last people were complaining about something that affected them back then. Though I will say no one blamed themselves - it was always that jerk who didnt know how to play that got killed and got everyone else killed etc. Now they are complaining about something that doesnt even affect them directly. If they dont like the difficulty setting, dont use it. There I fixed it.

[Zenako]

Yes absolutely. The number one thing that makes quests easier for experienced players is metagaming. After running the same quest on multiple toons 20 times over, knowing where all the traps are and which ways to go and such make the game alot easier. The new players not only dont have decent gear, they cant metagame their way through quests. Things we take for granted having played the game a few years are totally new concepts to a new player. Like the rest of us, they will learn in time.
.

While Metagaming quests can obviously help, it is not the most important thing in my opinion.

Thinking back to my first character in 2006. I started playing along with my Brother in Law (who had a few weeks head start on me). I KNOW D&D inside out, he only kinda knew the system. That knowledge (which had almost nothing to do with DDO quests per se, was a large part of why I found the game a lot easier than he did.)

My first character did not die until he was 3rd or 4th level (found out the nasty Ogre triple Hit if I recall correctly and was bemused by the gross overkill I had suffered. which also let me know that sometimes, it will just be the luck of the dice, much like D&D can be. 1's generally still fail spells in D&D (there are exceptions I know), and when that happens, bad things happen most of the time.

We worked at not dying, in part due to the death penalty. We learned back then to approach groups of mobs with some caution, to not bite off more than you could handle at once. The art of "pulling" was a core part of the game then. Sneaking up and selectively attacking enemy casters first, was an important thing to do. A lot of that type of tactical acumen is being lost when everything dies too easily and if you muck it up, no worries, a few gold pieces and we are good to go.

Now I also know I am a serious gamer, one who revels in lengthy rule sets (Art of Siege anyone??). Who mastered the nuances of Chivarly & Sorcery back in the 80's and scoffs at the minimalist rule sets in many newer games today. (Granted many of those games are enjoyable to play.) So for me, DDO and all its rules was nothing special, but just another game to play, which was actually made easier since the computer code handled all the calculations instead of me having to do it.

I know grognards like me are not a critical mass to be marketed to if you are looking for widespread success, but we are the types who will push and prod the game to find its weakness and limits and to test the boundaries, since that is what we do. We are the same players who loved trying to take on the AI in Starcraft in 1 on 4 situations. (1 on two was easy with any combo, 1 on three doable but certain mixes a lot better, 1 on 4 was tough regardless of the race balance.) For us, that is fun. Even if it takes attempt after attempt after attempt to succeed.

Just like I was happy to spend multiple evenings just working on figuring out how to jump in the PIT effectively. Tactical or movement challenges can be motivating.

[Chai]

Just like I was happy to spend multiple evenings just working on figuring out how to jump in the PIT effectively. Tactical or movement challenges can be motivating.

I know grognards like me are not a critical mass to be marketed to if you are looking for widespread success, but we are the types who will push and prod the game to find its weakness and limits and to test the boundaries, since that is what we do.

This is metagaming.

Pushing and prodding the game to find its weakness and limits and to test the boundaries is step one. Once you have mastered that quest, you can run it with your eyes closed. This is also the main reason why its only the players who have been here a while are the ones that are complaining that things are too easy.

I basically pulled the parts out of your post that accentuate metagaming, which is you as a player having knowledge of a quest that your character would not have if they ran it only once. In disagreeing with me, you proved my point exactly. Learning how to jump in the PIT effectively so you can run the quest for instance....

We worked at not dying, in part due to the death penalty. We learned back then to approach groups of mobs with some caution, to not bite off more than you could handle at once. The art of "pulling" was a core part of the game then. Sneaking up and selectively attacking enemy casters first, was an important thing to do. A lot of that type of tactical acumen is being lost when everything dies too easily and if you muck it up, no worries, a few gold pieces and we are good to go.

Everything dies too easily because I know what is in the next room, and I will pull out the two best weapons for killing whatever it is before I even encounter it. If its a trap, I will walk around it or stop short of it with no spot skill whatsoever, heck, I might even plan on running the mobs through their own trap. Now THATS metagaming!!! I wont break that barrel that contains the fire elemental until the group is ready for it. I wont open the "killer death ogre door" until the party is ready for it. Theres one secret door that I wont open in the game, because I know that death is the only thing behind it (in the form of a nasty blade trap). I know where just about every beholder is and will have my deathblock on before I face them.

If you are not playing permadeath already, you should be. You will find the challenge still exists in this game, for those who are willing to create it. Even metagaming to the extreme wont save you without having a decent amount of skill and co-operating as a team. If you like skill based play -vs- gear based play youd be in heaven.

[Cyr]

Everything dies too easily because I know what is in the next room, and I will pull out the two best weapons for killing whatever it is before I even encounter it. If its a trap, I will walk around it or stop short of it with no spot skill whatsoever, heck, I might even plan on running the mobs through their own trap. Now THATS metagaming!!! I wont break that barrel that contains the fire elemental until the group is ready for it. I wont open the "killer death ogre door" until the party is ready for it. Theres one secret door that I wont open in the game, because I know that death is the only thing behind it (in the form of a nasty blade trap). I know where just about every beholder is and will have my deathblock on before I face them.

No that would be setting the bar at no one having ever done the quest before. Otherwise, people do know what is coming up. Content will never come out fast enough in DDO for this not to be a factor. Designing with the misconception that no one having run the quest before is the norm would result in...well casual mode. It's very simple. Do you design to have content last and players feel challenged, but not overwhelmed or do you design hello kitty online for grade school age children to hop on for a few hours once a month?

[grodon9999]

If you like skill based play -vs- gear based play youd be in heaven.

If the missions weren't balanced assuming players have ubber-gear you'd have an easier time selling this.

[Chai]

No that would be setting the bar at no one having ever done the quest before. Otherwise, people do know what is coming up. Content will never come out fast enough in DDO for this not to be a factor. Designing with the misconception that no one having run the quest before is the norm would result in...well casual mode.

I am not talking about setting the bar at no one having ever done the quest before. I am making a point that metagaming is the single most reason why quests are easy for more experienced players.

It's very simple. Do you design to have content last and players feel challenged, but not overwhelmed or do you design hello kitty online for grade school age children to hop on for a few hours once a month?

If we are talking about creating a business model, both. Choosing one or the other is creating an exclusive business model that will leave certain types of customers out of your marketing strategy. It might sound good to power gamers, but they arent the ones who have to explain the marketing strategy and business model in their proposition to the suits in a boardroom somewhere at corporate HQ.

Hello Kitty Online LOL. "We can't give the sword of a thousand truths to a NOOB!!!"

[Chai]

If the missions weren't balanced assuming players have ubber-gear you'd have an easier time selling this.

Right, but once those missions become too easy due to metagaming, you can make up for it using a ruleset that does not incorporate major errors without major penalty.

There are PD players at level 20, who challenged themselves alot more than average metagamers / powergamers. There are also other PDers in the mid levels (10-14) who restrain themselves even more and do not allow purchases from any outside source and use only what they find.

To quote another PD guild leader in my own words, who I recently had a conversation with. "Now that you know 95% of the quests inside and out, playing hard core is a measure of using a very limited amount of resources and gear in order to run quests and acheive goals, substituting skill for gear.

[Oreg]

My recommendation would be that only Korthos, Harbor and Marketplace have a casual setting if the goal is to help newer players adapt. I know this will not happen (those utilizing it will scream that they can no longer play DDO after the Marketplace for example) but it makes sense to me.

[parvo]

Further proof that the game can't be made easy enough for everyone...

[Horrorscope]

My recommendation would be that only Korthos, Harbor and Marketplace have a casual setting if the goal is to help newer players adapt. I know this will not happen (those utilizing it will scream that they can no longer play DDO after the Marketplace for example) but it makes sense to me.

The reason why it won't happen is because they will just leave after the marketplace, it's the whole point it's going in to begin with, to keep these players.

[Sarr]

The reason why it won't happen is because they will just leave after the marketplace, it's the whole point it's going in to begin with, to keep these players.

Though I can't agree that's only for new players or soloers. I'm a VERY social person and guild leader of a really big guild. But there are times when I'm ****ed, cold, etc, and till Update 3 I needed to stay out of DDO as it would be frustrating to solo. Now I'll be able to play even then. Loot is laughable, but fun is still there, I think.