New Difficulty Feedback: Casual

[KKDragonLord]

Now i will be able to run my doorstep paladin,Uber!


/sarcasm off

The Doorstep paladin has always been playable, as per the rules of 5/1, 11/1.
The casual setting came to allow much more versatility expanding the ratio to 1/5, 1/11.
Now doorstep paladins, standard DDO class templates and their cousins can all enjoy the whole game.

[Razcar]

Speaking as a new-ish player, I am EXTATIC that you guys are implementing this feature. I also want to express my disappointment with those veteran players who have chosen to criticize this move. Rather than be happy for the newer players who are struggling with content they have opted to voice the opinion that we should have a hard go of it. It's selfish, elitist, and petty. Once again Tolero and Turbine, I thank you and I'm quite sure all of us who have recently joined DDO are as appreciative as I am. I'm confident this move will accomplish exactly what it is intended to do, which is retain new players.

You guys are bringing in the big money, so when they see new players leaving after they've wiped one time too many with their 6 Con wiz/pally/rogues, they will mould the game after that. It will in all likelihood go on. Things that are perceived as "hard" by the new players stands in the way of Turbine making money off of them. Instead of those new players learning and getting better, the devs will keep adapting the game around them, pushing up the cushions and tucking them in nice and comfy.

Raids as they stand now are way too hard for this audience, you have to have a minimum of skill and build to succeed. F2P:ers will wipe and complain. Then they will be the next one to be casualised. Why not? There's a big bunch of "hard" content right there and cool content at that, of course you should be able to have a 6 year old completing it. The old grumpy grognards will get some lip service by rehashing old mouldy content on Epic setting, shut up grandpa and play your Epic DQ.

Yes, I'm exaggerating to make a point, but it is kinda weird to see the best MMO in the market getting Hello Kitty:fied, bit by bit, and if you want to call that elitist, be my guest. Turbine are turning DDO into one of the games they are making fun of in their advertising.

[techwench]

Turbine are turning DDO into one of the games they are making fun of in their advertising.

I'm sorry, but that is just an asinine statement.

There's so much generalization going on here about the vocal minority (this goes both ways, btw, with new players bashing vets as well). We're talking about the vocal minority.

There are players who ARE good, and who ARE new, and who WANT to challenge themselves. I don't know if I'm good, but I DO like the challenge DDO presents.

HOWEVER, I welcome this new difficulty setting because maybe, just MAYBE, I actually want to learn the dungeon BEFORE I pug it with vets who will zerg their way through...and rather than getting lost and holding up the group (or worse, annoying them) while I try find my way back after a missed jump, I just MIGHT be ready for it and just MIGHT be able to keep up with them so I can actually contribute to the team.

Just because some people have had bad experiences, doesn't mean EVERYONE is bad. I admit, I have blonde moments in game (no offense to blondes)...but I also don't cry and whine when I wipe.

/anecdote on

My first time through the pit was 3-manned with my brother and husband. I died once at the end because everyone else was dead and those trogs kept blasting me with lightning bolts. We came back with a cleric hireling before it reset and finished it out. No big deal.

/anecdote off

So, no, I don't cry because stuff is too hard. I laugh when I die. I laugh when other people die (especially my husband). And I run stuff on elite. And I take offense when I get lumped into generalizations just because I actually like a feature they're releasing that happens to not uber l337.

ELITE WILL STILL BE HERE for those who want it. It's not like turbine said, "We're adding an easy mode and getting rid of elite."

I just don't see why this has become so controversial. I mean, sheesh...with the reactions I've read, you'd have thought Turbine announced gay marriages in game now.

[KKDragonLord]

I just don't see why this has become so controversial. I mean, sheesh...with the reactions I've read, you'd have thought Turbine announced gay marriages in game now.

Ooooh boy, now you've done it... prepare to be flamed for that comment on Gay marriages

[techwench]

Ooooh boy, now you've done it... prepare to be flamed for that comment on Gay marriages

LOL it's okay...it's kinda cold here in my apartment today. Flames will help conserve electricity, right?

[Zenako]

.

ELITE WILL STILL BE HERE for those who want it. It's not like turbine said, "We're adding an easy mode and getting rid of elite."

I just don't see why this has become so controversial.

The problem stems from the other changes being made at the same time with some of the same rationale to appease and address the complaints some were voicing, as it appears they were leaving the game (exit surveys, at least that was the intimation of the staff who commented).

Some of those other changes affect ALL Levels of play, not just casual or elite. In many ways the introduction of the casual setting just reflects the kind of overall changes that are being implemented to the game, which is also changing the flavor of the game for many longtime players who stuck with this one, precisely because it was different....

[Khimberlhyte]

You guys are bringing in the big money, so when they see new players leaving after they've wiped one time too many with their 6 Con wiz/pally/rogues, they will mould the game after that. It will in all likelihood go on. Things that are perceived as "hard" by the new players stands in the way of Turbine making money off of them. Instead of those new players learning and getting better, the devs will keep adapting the game around them, pushing up the cushions and tucking them in nice and comfy.

Raids as they stand now are way too hard for this audience, you have to have a minimum of skill and build to succeed. F2P:ers will wipe and complain. Then they will be the next one to be casualised. Why not? There's a big bunch of "hard" content right there and cool content at that, of course you should be able to have a 6 year old completing it. The old grumpy grognards will get some lip service by rehashing old mouldy content on Epic setting, shut up grandpa and play your Epic DQ.

People who play casual setting at level (ie, level 2 character playing level 2 dungeon on casual) will find it equivalent to playing solitaire. Those people who remain happy playing at casual "difficulty" will not be looking to raid or master the game. As long as N/H/E are not nerfed, it shouldn't affect anyone else all that much.

I played a few more low level quests on casual with my lvl 2 cleric on Sunday. The only way casual with Korthos gear was tolerable for me was to take on stuff over my level, and even then, it wasn't as much fun, because much of the challenge was gone. Rust monster in Depths of Despair / Darkness? Three hits from the wand. Earth Elementals? Five hits. No shrining required. The boss in Depths of Darkness burned up most of my SP, because he had two slayers with him. That was the only challenge, in a level 4 dungeon (downrated to level 3 on casual) running as a level 2 character in Korthos gear.

I could see a new form of competition arising - seeing how high of a dungeon you can reach with a bare-bones level 2 character. It was almost like what I imagine hypermiling would feel like - the people who take a Toyota Prius and drive it in competitions to try and get 100+ mpg. There was no adrenaline rush or fear of failure, just a bunch of time spent methodically plodding along. I'm the type of person who likes to pick up Need for Speed or GT5 Prologue for a quick arcade race every so often. I could not imagine a hypermiling contest in a racing game. "Now just let go of the gas pedal, and coast to the intersection". Whooo yeah, hella fun.

After playing 3-4 hours on casual, I can't see people playing exclusively casual without a certain mindset. I don't have that mindset. I haven't grouped with anyone who has that mindset. I let my 11 year old son play DDO, and he has never complained about the difficulty. He wants XP, he wants favour, he wants to level up to avoid too much repetition, he wants to explore new dungeons, he wants to get in with good groups, and he wants to be challenged and feel a sense of accomplishment. Casual mode won't deliver much of that.

My son is a new player (as am I), and by the time we join you in raids, we'll still be learning, but we won't be entirely useless. I don't think casual mode adds much to the game, and I don't think it will take much away either.

[techwench]

The problem stems from the other changes being made at the same time with some of the same rationale to appease and address the complaints some were voicing, as it appears they were leaving the game (exit surveys, at least that was the intimation of the staff who commented).

Some of those other changes affect ALL Levels of play, not just casual or elite. In many ways the introduction of the casual setting just reflects the kind of overall changes that are being implemented to the game, which is also changing the flavor of the game for many longtime players who stuck with this one, precisely because it was different....

And most of those changes are GOOD changes from what I've read.

So people are mad about VON2 being noobified. But what's worse?

1) Fail 20x because someone has bad timing or lags in the jet streams, waste time, get mad, drop, reform
2) Fail twice because someone has bad timing or lags in the jet streams, get mad, reform, make player who lags or has bad timing feel like ****

Nevermind the GOOD changes to VON, like not having to re-flag every time you want to run the raid...and running the flagging quests in any order. All of those are trumped by one thing that can be fun or extremely frustrating and the cause of animosity in group to the point of dropping and reforming? Doesn't make sense.

And the changes to crowd control are bad because you like not having a save against them? Okay, fine, I understand that. It's challenging, masochistic, understandable.

So you WANT the challenges and the hard circumstances, right? I get it. I really do, because I have fun with challenges, too.

BUT, you also want them to remove the changes from TOD because it makes things too hard? Isn't that a bit selective and hypocritical?

THAT, I don't get.

[whysper]

And most of those changes are GOOD changes from what I've read.

So people are mad about VON2 being noobified. But what's worse?

1) Fail 20x because someone has bad timing or lags in the jet streams, waste time, get mad, drop, reform
2) Fail twice because someone has bad timing or lags in the jet streams, get mad, reform, make player who lags or has bad timing feel like ****

3) Tell them to go fight the spiders and clear the maze side instead.

Let me elaborate: I know I am not great at everything*. I do not have a huge problem accepting that some things are best left for others to do. I would hope that was the case with most people but that may be overly optimistic. Abusing someone for whatever failings is an entirely different matter.

* I suck at jumps...the wind bridge I "mastered" the day the quest was released (our group failed that quest 15 or so times before we got it - twice or thrice was my fault - and it took loooong.) I have fallen off twice since

[KKDragonLord]

3) Tell them to go fight the spiders and clear the maze side instead.

The second time around right?
Yep, it would surely help make that player feel bad

[whysper]

The second time around right?
Yep, it would surely help make that player feel bad

I do not presume to know everyone's emotional state, but after the second time, yeah, I think the plan should be rethought. Most people at that level are somewhat aware of their strong and weak points, how well their connection suits doing finely timed stuff and so on.

[KKDragonLord]

I do not presume to know everyone's emotional state, but after the second time, yeah, I think the plan should be rethought. Most people at that level are somewhat aware of their strong and weak points, how well their connection suits doing finely timed stuff and so on.

Rethinking a plan is fine, avoiding pugging for a well known easily failed quest isn't very nice.
The point is not how we have been playing it until now, its how it could improve if things were different.

[whysper]

Rethinking a plan is fine, avoiding pugging for a well known easily failed quest isn't very nice.
The point is not how we have been playing it until now, its how it could improve if things were different.

I never avoided PUGging anything, so I cannot comment on that. Nor can I agree that the changes to VoN2 - or, really, much of anything lately - are an improvement, so I will leave it at that.

[Razcar]

There are players who ARE good, and who ARE new, and who WANT to challenge themselves. I don't know if I'm good, but I DO like the challenge DDO presents.

Yes of course. Tell this to Turbine; new players want challenges too. I've met many of them in game, and that there's a spectrum is a given. It also has nothing to do with the tendency that some are observing, and that is that Turbine are steering DDO in the direction of quick but cheap satisfaction. The game is turning from something that used to be somewhat of an acquired taste, but that kept you enjoying it for many years; to becoming more of a Happy Meal - cheap and easy and not very filling

HOWEVER, I welcome this new difficulty setting because maybe, just MAYBE, I actually want to learn the dungeon BEFORE I pug it with vets who will zerg their way through...and rather than getting lost and holding up the group (or worse, annoying them) while I try find my way back after a missed jump, I just MIGHT be ready for it and just MIGHT be able to keep up with them so I can actually contribute to the team.

The Casual setting does have merit, like this one thing that you mention here. And seen by itself Casual is no biggie. It is part of a trend though. I see the market for it, but I would very much like Turbine to watch out so they don't overdo this.

The changes I see now in the game are kind of the opposite of what I like about it. This new direction points to playing the game for a short time, fly-by-night style, invest as little as possible, have no reputation, learn nothing, talk with no-one, no commitment, make as little effort as possible, and in return, get something fleeting back. And this is a trend, this is a part of the F2P audience, not saying you or any specific person. And mark well, even though it is not my personal style, that I do not think there's something "bad" about playing DDO like that. It is just a game, people should make of it what they will, of course.

Also, I'm not that stupid that I cannot accept change, and I also see the need for it. Our dwindling numbers couldn't support the game forever, and Turbine of course wants to make as much money as they can - they're not a charity for old ex-D&D players with demanding jobs and even more demanding kids . There is however a risk of overdoing a change and in the end destroying more than what you can build up in its place.

DDO is now a hybrid game. It is not a pure F2P game, and it is neither a pure subscription game. I think it is very important to try to keep a balance there. And I'm saying that Turbine shouldn't try to keep this balance just to be nice to the veterans - we do pay 15 reliable dollars each month, plus whatever DDO Shop splurges we indulge in and I hope to continue to be doing that for a long time.

There's money to be made in loyal, stable customers, Turbine. Please don't forget that.

[ImyaLuneGood]

Class: L20 Bard.
Spec: Spellsinger
Gear Level: Beginner --- I recently hit 20 and have been running shroud gathering mats to make my greensteal.
Suggestion: More shrines in the instances

The first thing that I noticed about this instance is that there appeared to be exactly 0 dungeon scaling in the number of mobs presents. The mobs themselves seemed weaker than the "Normal" version, but I still decided to use a Banisher on them since they had too many hit points for my "normal" gear. The fact that there are some fairly aggressive self healing clerics presents meant that trying to instant kill them was the way to go.

I managed to Charm Monster my way to the part where the 4 air elementals show up. At that point, they proceeded to knock me off and pull a bunch of the other mobs present in the general vicinity. The elementals did chain knock me down several times, and with the trash beating on me, it was clear that I wasn't going to be getting past this point. I immediately ddoor'ed out.

The thing that I felt most lacking was the lack of shrines along the path. By the time that I reached the elementals, I had been reduced to about 20% of my starting spell points. I will admit that I didn't pay that close attention, but I don't recall seeing a shrine at the start of the instance. I wouldn't have minded clearing my way to the elementals, running back to the shrine and restoring my spell points to full. I remember from the Korthos days that most of the instance on the easier difficulty levels had shrines right at the start of them. In the strongest terms possible, I suggest that all dungeons in casual mode have shrines right at the start and/or that points where you cannot return to the previous area.

I understand that some of the players here can and probably do solo this instance with their toons. However, since I'm consider myself a casual player and I can state that in my mind, RwtD as it stands now isn't "casual" on casual mode.


-Imya

[Razcar]

I understand that some of the players here can and probably do solo this instance with their toons. However, since I'm consider myself a casual player and I can state that in my mind, RwtD as it stands now isn't "casual" on casual mode.
-Imya

Running with the Devils was seen as the hardest of the Vale quest when it came. Groups often required special weapons for it (Wounding/Puncturing which at that time killed mobs when at 0 Con) and badly equipped casual players had problems with it in full parties (level cap was 16 then), on Normal. After a little while it became a quick loot run, but for someone that haven't run it much it can still be daunting.

Any quests with self-healing mobs are always tricker to solo, since you cannot concentrate your DPS on one mob at a time. There's no way to protect your from the Seering Light's cast by the Ghaele clerics, which will wear down your healing resources. Running with the Devils also has two self-healing bosses, where you have to overcome their healing with your DPS.

I don't know your build, but you say you're a Spellsinger. They are sometimes not the best solo build since they often lack a good way to kill mobs and bosses. You wont be able to use your banisher on the bosses. Try herding the eles into a Otto's Sphere and picking them off one and one with ranged weapons. Heal yourself with scrolls / wands after fights instead of SP and save your SP for crowds control and combat healing.

You're right that there's no Shrine at the start there. Other Vale quests have Shrines just before the quest entrance, but this one doesn't. There's two of them in total in this quest, but the first one is a little later than you came. Placing one at the start of each quest on Casual like you suggest might be a good idea, although that would mean that the devs would have to update each quest manually for Casual.

[yohoia]

/Agree

Speaking as a new-ish player, I am EXTATIC that you guys are implementing this feature. I also want to express my disappointment with those veteran players who have chosen to criticize this move. Rather than be happy for the newer players who are struggling with content they have opted to voice the opinion that we should have a hard go of it. It's selfish, elitist, and petty. Once again Tolero and Turbine, I thank you and I'm quite sure all of us who have recently joined DDO are as appreciative as I am. I'm confident this move will accomplish exactly what it is intended to do, which is retain new players.

[Rasczak]

casual draconic rune runs, casual shroud ingredient runs, casual mindsunder runs, casual gianthold flagging runs *sigh*

I'm happy as the grind element of the game I can do without but being an MMORPG you have to have an element of it for long term gameplay. I'm unhappy though as this MMORPG is being made into a single-player. Casual is awesome for certain players. I know a few who prefer quiet time with themself and their hireling but then certain things should either be excluded or casual doesn't count towards the flag. This smacks of turning the game into a massive zerg fest. Make a group and jump in on casual...

I understand completely where the new players are coming from and some quests are very nasty to the new and old alike but my next point is almost 100% on par with the WikiGnome's fun gaming statement. A new player who is casual will play casual quests. A power gamer vet will go for the challenge and the grind. A new player will most likely not shroud, hound, VoD, ToD as much as those who know the items they want to make their build "perfect". A casual player won't be stressed about the lack of perfect dragontouched armour, an unlocked mindsunder item etc.

So based on the fun gaming statement, exactly how can you implement such a change across the board?
I am all for making those arb quests casual from lvl 1 -20 but surely it stand to reason then to keep some quests untouched from this. If you want the ingredients for shroud you work your bum off for them, if you want the armour then sweat a little, if you want to join that raid then prove your skills are up to it by doing the flagging.

That's just my opinion though since I've seen so many party issues the last few weeks that I feel sincerely that there are to many players that get rushed up the ranks to high levels and then are seriously unprepared for the content available up there.

I love the fledglings and I love hwo the game is brimming with activity, but that activity needs to have some sort of longterm solution and not an instant gratification metality of, "Oh the quests are to hard for you?" Well lets make them easy, and lets make every single quest a whole bunch easier".

Yes there is still the option of doing stuff on normal but in all honesty what player who struggles their way through alone on casual is going to bother doing quests on normal / hard or elite?
Added to that, exactly how does that "casual" player learn anything about the game, tried and tested methods, weapons that would be useful etc etc...Sure they can spend weeks going through thread after thread but surely the party is there to teach, learn as well as enjoy?

Mixed feelings about it to say the least :/

[Robinton]

Remember, every time they make something idiot-proof, they invent a better type of idiot.

I have not read all the postings yet, but think some good comments were made. I think Shassa did a great job of summarizing. I also like the quote above a lot.

[die]

i like the idea .. now im in my 40's and sometimes i dont want too play with "u" im not in the mood or what ever .. ive done every raid,i have just about every quest and raid on elite.. but maybe i just want too do a high end quest in shavrath but norm will be too much and im not filling like playing a wf sorc or a dwarf clr( and i say those 2 becasue thier my perferd class and races).. so casual will be fine for me too solo maybe norm on one but not all and as for those elite type who think your all that.. take 10 noobs in a raid say vod... now lets see how elite you are lol any one can kick ass witha bunch of ass kickers but a true leader can take what ever they get you,20 or 30 somthing guys and gals just have not learned that yet.. yea yea pick on my typing skill because thats all u have