New Difficulty Feedback: Casual

[joneb1999]

If anyones problem is with newb players becoming a nuisance because they may think that by playing casual they are good enough for raids, therefore making finding a good pug more of a lottery, then take that particular issue to the devs. This doesnt have to mean casual is bad or wrong or a mistake. Infact the idea that anyone is belittled for choosing their type of gameplay is appaling. Let people enjoy the game they way they want it. That works both ways for people being allowed to play casual and for vets who want a distinction that means casual doesnt flag raids encroaching on their gameplay with inexperienced players causing more wipes from them.

[Razcar]

Why do people care if it's easier to get pie pieces, ingredients, named items, etc? It's Us vs. NPCs...you'd think everyone would want everyone else to be as uber as possible so that even if the newb you picked up without realizing for your raid still has a reasonable survival chance / damage output. Also, what people seem to be failing to realize is *you* can do it too! So, the newb is having an easy time of it getting these special items...imagine how quickly you will be able to zerg it!

If there is one thing I hate, it's crabs in a bucket. You nay-saying crabs should be steamed and consumed...that's all crabs are good for.

I think few are/were concerned about it getting easier to pick up named loot. The main issue was instead that if you could flag for raids solo, on Casual, you might not develop the playing skills, game knowledge (i.e. not character strength) and the teamwork experience necessary for successful raiding.

Edit: ...and that seems not to be the case now. "Casual players" can play the whole game on Casual difficulty, sans the raids. And if they want to raid, the need to run the flagging quests on at least Normal.

[joneb1999]

Excellent and thanks for the write up from a newer player perspective.

You happen to point out one of the major concerns about casual, anyone who plays on that level (and there will be many I am sure), and if they are not a vet just farming something, will develop a very different perspective on quests and the ramifications of certain things. Your point about Traps being a significant one. On Casual, they are basically completely insignificant. This is true on the high level quests I have been checking out. Instead of making them aware that they should disarm or avoid traps, the solution is just to basically ignore them, since they are now really almost harmless.

This means that traps no longer can serve there function to deter characters from certain paths, or to require they take precautions, or expend resources to heal up the damage from them. That is just one aspect of how this will encourage and promote a very different style of gameplay which will be more and more incompatible with the other settings.

One thing you are forgetting is how 32 point builds, special builds and reincarnated builds that are made by experienced players mean normal is a stroll in the park for them. My guild has many players that already solo their level and sometimes above on normal difficulty or run with just one other player and they zerg mobs and traps they cant disable. Yes they may have to heal now and again but the point is casual sounds like it is to a good newb player as normal is to a vet. This doesnt mean casual is invalid at all and you will find that many newb players wil still be able to find casual a treat. The whole issue that needs to be worked on is making sure casual only players can not be allowed to infringe on the game of those playing for a challenge.

[Therilith]

Why do people care if it's easier to get pie pieces, ingredients, named items, etc? It's Us vs. NPCs...you'd think everyone would want everyone else to be as uber as possible so that even if the newb you picked up without realizing for your raid still has a reasonable survival chance / damage output. Also, what people seem to be failing to realize is *you* can do it too! So, the newb is having an easy time of it getting these special items...imagine how quickly you will be able to zerg it!

They should totally give you all the named loot in the game as soon as you hit level 20. Then everybody would be happy, right?

And what's the deal with these "bosses" I've heard so much about? Where's the fun in killing one if you have to risk your life to do it? Nerf every mob to 1 HP, then anyone will be able to kill any mob and this will be the bestest game ever!

[Althotas]

I think few are/were concerned about it getting easier to pick up named loot. The main issue was instead that if you could flag for raids solo, on Casual, you might not develop the playing skills, game knowledge (i.e. not character strength) and the teamwork experience necessary for successful raiding.

Edit: ...and that seems not to be the case now. "Casual players" can play the whole game on Casual difficulty, sans the raids. And if they want to raid, the need to run the flagging quests on at least Normal.

Actually the only flagging quests that seem to require running on normal are the shroud as the pie pieces haven't dropped in 3 runs in the vale quests. I suspect that the boot ingredients will not drop in the Amrath quests and the sigil pieces in Necropolis as well even tho I have not actually run any of those on casual just yet. DQ, The Vons, GH quests being run on casual will flag you for those raids. The only reason for the pie pieces not dropping and I suspect the boot pieces is because they are also ingredients for crafting and I have seen no ingredients drop yet in the vale for three runs on casual. As I said I may have been having a bad day luck wise but then again it could be how casual treats these items. But that being said is casual bad. As far as I can see not in and of itself. I do see a problem on individuals thinking that casual runs thru quests have qualified them to run elite quests or raids as casual mode is easier. Also I have run a few of the harbor quests where the named trinkets drop (Durks, Kold ringleader etc.) found the named and have not seen any named item drop yet in casual mode. I know they dropped in the old solo mode before so something may have changed or this may be a coding error by the developers.

[Razcar]

Actually the only flagging quests that seem to require running on normal are the shroud as the pie pieces haven't dropped in 3 runs in the vale quests. I suspect that the boot ingredients will not drop in the Amrath quests and the sigil pieces in Necropolis as well even tho I have not actually run any of those on casual just yet. DQ, The Vons, GH quests being run on casual will flag you for those raids.[...]

Alright, thanks for the information. Did relics drop in GH quests?

[Lifespawn]

Why do people care if it's easier to get pie pieces, ingredients, named items, etc? It's Us vs. NPCs...you'd think everyone would want everyone else to be as uber as possible so that even if the newb you picked up without realizing for your raid still has a reasonable survival chance / damage output. Also, what people seem to be failing to realize is *you* can do it too! So, the newb is having an easy time of it getting these special items...imagine how quickly you will be able to zerg it!

If there is one thing I hate, it's crabs in a bucket. You nay-saying crabs should be steamed and consumed...that's all crabs are good for.

nope if all you want to do is play casual go for it but the rewards should reflect the difficulty.

I don't want to zerg casual for items i want to zerg elite and have the loot reflect the setting, stuff is too easy to get as it is if everyone could get everything they needed/wanted on casual mode it would be even more montyhaul than it is.

If there is one thing i hate it's people that want all the work done for them.

Create a level 1 toon click your easy button bing your level 20 and have all the loot in the game congrats you won ddo on to the next game to "beat".

[Horrorscope]

If anyones problem is with newb players becoming a nuisance because they may think that by playing casual they are good enough for raids, therefore making finding a good pug more of a lottery, then take that particular issue to the devs. This doesnt have to mean casual is bad or wrong or a mistake. Infact the idea that anyone is belittled for choosing their type of gameplay is appaling. Let people enjoy the game they way they want it. That works both ways for people being allowed to play casual and for vets who want a distinction that means casual doesnt flag raids encroaching on their gameplay with inexperienced players causing more wipes from them.

Yeah it won't take a noob long to know if they can handle raids or not. I doubt if someone is so bad that they keep beating their heads against it.

[Althotas]

Alright, thanks for the information. Did relics drop in GH quests?

Yep the relics dropped in TBF, Cabal and foundation so I assume they will drop in all quests. They surprised me as they are also items to trade in for various relic armor and fell outside of the ingredient drop failure so far. Like I said. I could just be having one of those times where the Vale stuff won't drop for me.

[KKDragonLord]

Fleshmaker's Laboratoy:
As a lvl 17 cleric I found it very easy to get up to the Air Elemental room. BB and occasional heals were all I needed. I ddin't manage to activate the levers though since I had trouble with the air elementals.

Try banishing them with the spell, the red named will need some jumping around platforms bbs and long range soluions i'd wager.
biggest problem with levers is getting o all of them in time.

[Shassa]

A way to address the "Casual makes it too easy to get stuff" complaints would be to give greater incentives to those who finish Elite/Epic quests. And by the way, I know the concept of "Epic items" already exists, but I'm talking about a slightly different approach. I think.

So anyway, how about this.

1) Every time someone finishes an Elite quest, they earn Elite Tokens. The amount dispensed is reduced upon repeating the quest or being too far above the recommended level. Actually, if they're getting a hefty penalty to xp based on being overlevelled, then they're probably not getting any tokens at all. One Epic token is given per Epic quest completed.

2) There is a guy in the Marketplace that will upgrade certain equipment into an improved bound-to-character version in exchange for tokens.

Examples:

Normal Visor of the Flesh Render Guards: Death Ward (1 charge). Must earn through Tangleroot line end reward.
Elite Visor: Death Ward (2 charges), Deathblock. Turn in Normal Visor + 25 Elite Tokens.
Epic Visor: Death Ward (3 charges), Deathblock, Incorporeal (attacks count as Ghost Touch). Turn in Elite Visor + 5 Epic Tokens.

Normal Minos Legens: Heavy Fort, Toughness. Prerequisite: Must collect 20 Tapestries.
Elite Minos Legens: Heavy Fort, Toughness, Greater False Life. Turn in Normal Minos Legens + 100 Elite Tokens.
Epic Minos Legens: Heavy Fort, Toughness, Greater False Life, CON+6. Turn in Elite Minos Legens + 15 Epic Tokens.

Please judge the idea around the general principle, not if you think that my examples are perfectly game balancing.

But anyway, this wouldn't require you to fiddle with quest difficulties or any redesign on that front. You're just creating more items and have a new Collectibles guy. This still allows "Casual" players to earn some nice stuff... just not as nice as if they got their act together to tackle something tougher.

I dunno, I'm bored. Point is, I hear lots of people grumbling that the risk vs. reward incentives are disappearing, so it would be nice to extend some priveleges for those who survive the biggest challenges. If you don't believe in stronger items, then maybe even give them exclusive cosmetic options or exclusive guild options. Something.

*edited for clarity*

[Babumbalaboo]

Alright. I've got one reason why casual difficulty won't be the only thing people bother running from now on, and it's very similar to why normal isn't the only difficulty people bother running right now.

Rewards. The XP for casual versus normal is just insanely low. You cannot get to Level 20 on casual quests alone, especially if you're F2P, not buying unnecessary adventure packs. I mean, maybe you could, if you repeated a bunch of them over and over again, but really? The XP is halved? That's kind of extreme. While I haven't tested it, I'm almost certain that you could run a quest on normal in less time than it takes to run a quest twice on elite. If that's not the case, I can see there maybe being a problem in the short term, but repetition penalties add up. By the fourth or fifth time, you might as well not even bother.

Then there's the loot. While it isn't drastically reduced compared to the XP, you're still not getting stuff as good as you'd get on other difficulties. Really, if you're running a dungeon for loot, it's going to be on elite anyway. Unless they actually start offering appropriately-leveled loot in chests rather than giving us things below the minimum level requirement, people with money are always going to have better gear, and people without money are always going to be left behind. Farming casual quests for vendor trash isn't going to get anyone nearly as much money as doing one quest on elite and selling the superior goods on the auction house.

Finally, there's the issue of favor. This, in my opinion, is the number one reason why people who don't particularly care for the challenge bother actually running elite. Whether for the sake of completionism, or for particular favor milestone rewards, everyone likes favor. You can't get maximum favor by completing casual, no matter how many times you faceroll yourself through it.

This is the reason why they don't just make elite stupid-difficult. Because there's favor attached to it. Believe it or not, even casual players like getting the rewards that favor offer. If Turbine decided to just detatch favor from difficulty and change it to a "completion or no completion" system, people probably wouldn't run elite.

That said, based on the comments I've seen, I think a good, hard look needs to be given to casual difficulty in order to ensure that the scaling actually works properly. One of my biggest beefs with dungeon scaling (based on party size, when it was implemented) was that it wasn't consistent. You'd run all four of the depths quests on normal by yourself without breaking a sweat, then you'd die on the first few mobs in Irestone Inlet. Don't even get me started on Proof is in the Poison.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to walk into a quest my level on my own without a specialized solo build, and be able to actually finish it without wasting many resources or spending an unreasonable amount of time. Solo play should be an option, at least as a backup plan for those times when you want to play, but you know that you won't be able to commit to a group. As it stands now, normal mode with dungeon scaling shows the beginning stages of being solo-friendly, but it isn't really solo-friendly. Hopefully, casual difficulty will change that.

[Angelus_dead]

Fleshmaker's Laboratoy:
As a lvl 17 cleric I found it very easy to get up to the Air Elemental room. BB and occasional heals were all I needed.

Level 14 Clerics have always found it easy to clear to the end room solo; and before Dungeon Scaling was even added.

[hafner]

When does this new update come out? I cant seem to find it anywhere.

[Babumbalaboo]

When it's ready.

[Auran82]

Soon(tm)

[Auran82]

Just Solod SoS on casual, no solverign rune in the last chest. Might only be a chance to drop on casual maybe.

[ahpook]

Why do people care if it's easier to get pie pieces, ingredients, named items, etc? It's Us vs. NPCs...you'd think everyone would want everyone else to be as uber as possible so that even if the newb you picked up without realizing for your raid still has a reasonable survival chance / damage output. Also, what people seem to be failing to realize is *you* can do it too! So, the newb is having an easy time of it getting these special items...imagine how quickly you will be able to zerg it!

If someone is only running casual they probably have no desire to run raids. So flagging items like pie pieces and ingredients are not needed by those players.

If they do want to run raids, they should be running the quests on harder difficulties so that they are properly aware of how to operate their character in the tougher raid content.

As for named items the chance to get them should vary based on difficulty with a very low chance on casual and an improved chance for each step up in difficulty. Again, if you are only running casual, you probably don't really need that Kardin's Eye anyway.

[BracchusBridgeburner]

Speaking as a new-ish player, I am EXTATIC that you guys are implementing this feature. I also want to express my disappointment with those veteran players who have chosen to criticize this move. Rather than be happy for the newer players who are struggling with content they have opted to voice the opinion that we should have a hard go of it. It's selfish, elitist, and petty. Once again Tolero and Turbine, I thank you and I'm quite sure all of us who have recently joined DDO are as appreciative as I am. I'm confident this move will accomplish exactly what it is intended to do, which is retain new players.

[Battleworm]

Now i will be able to run my doorstep paladin,Uber!


/sarcasm off