New Difficulty Feedback: Casual

[Morningfrost]

Frankly though, I see no shame in calling it Easy. There's Normal, there's Hard, so naturally the one before it should be called Easy.
Whoever decided on calling it Casual is gonna have some Maruts knocking for disrupting the order of the universe

"Blunt your weapons against just-woken-up mobs"?

For the thread, I personally like an easy setting. It may be handy for taking a survey of an unknown dungeon. It's useful when a game is new and you have fun discovering everything. With a drastic reduction to the loot gained I think no one could label this as an easy mode.

[Kalari]

There is a large market for what Nicole Lazzaro calls "easy fun". While hardcore gamers thrive on difficult challenges that might cause them to fail a few times before succeeding, there are casual gamers who simply enjoy the joy of exploring and defeating monsters. Since DDO's new business model is designed to appeal to them (or at least far more than a subscription business model), it only makes sense that Turbine wants to provide a gaming experience that they enjoy.

No. In fact, it's in Turbine's interest to encourage us to get better and attempt more difficult challenges.

This is why there are more than one difficulty setting and why there are incentives to play on Normal over Easy.

Most likely, they will fail. They might surprise us, though. Some of the older raids are pretty easy on Normal.

I get what your saying Borror0 I just dont like it, to me its like someone coming into my pen and paper game and changing the house rules giving us super invincibility. Where is the challenge? Sure its not going to affect my game style unless these players become super confident just running casual and try to intermingle with those of us who have learned to make ourselves better via challenge. When they gimp up a raid and are screamed on then what? I can see the trouble from this ahead maybe im being pessimistic but I just dont understand what was so wrong with the standard we had. I dunno I guess if new players are happy with this fine I just see it as one more straw being laid on the backs of many of us who are tired of the easy path being laid out. I know keeping new players happy is important but this new type catering to me is more insulting. Hey you cant figure out our dungeons instead of trying again we are going to make it super easy for you to win. It will build confidence then you can take on normal..oh wait your group still cant handle that..we will add the next level "baby" you know I actually have a shooter game that has that mode "baby" thats the thing I thought of when I saw this thread. Meh I need sleep maybe after some rest I will see the point of this.

[Mjesko]

I hope to see it as a solo-enabling option.

My 20th brd/rog is not able to solo 'Running with the Devils' only because of the self-healing paladin. It's a red-named, so Glitterdust, Holds, Dance, deception/radiance, etc. do not help me win. A lot of my character's damage comes from sneak attack. The dungeon scaling code did not significantly (if at all) lessen his healing abilities. Perhaps that scaling should be fixed for a solo player, but failing that it is my hope that the "Casual" difficulty will let me solo-aquire the crafting item from this adventure.

But, as i said earlier in this thread, that is a problem of dungeon scaling and mid / high level quests. Instead of introducing casual Turbine should make the dungeon scaling easier if only 1 - 2 players are playing a quest.

[Auran82]

I think the next mode they will actually introduce is 'Fold Space' difficulty.

Where the quest objectives and exit are moved to the entrance.

I have a feeling that they wanted to just add the solo difficulty to every quest, so instead of having to go through every single quest in the game and make sure you could do everything in the quest with one person, they just attached Casual or Group Solo onto every quest.

EDIT: Just had a thought, Casual Stealer of Souls anyone? It's not a raid after all...

[Borror0]

Where is the challenge?

It's supposed to be on Elite (and Epic) but it's not there, yet. Hopefully, Turbine will get to it and offer something challenging enough on Elite.

As for the lower difficulty settings, why should their existence bother you? If Turbine adds incentives to play on Elite (or whatever difficulty setting feels challenging enough to you), then lower difficulty settings don't intervene with your gaming experience. Players playing those settings wouldn't get as much as you do, so what would you complain about?

[...] what was so wrong with the standard we had.

If you ask me? Nothing. I thought we were fine with three difficulty settings.

However, it seems that Turbine designers feels that three difficulty settings is too limiting and that it makes it too hard for them to cover their whole playerbase. Think about it: they could have added a difficulty anywhere from between Normal and Hard to above Elite, it didn't matter. They might have had to make Normal easier, but the end result would be the same.

When you think about it, another difficulty setting is just a tool for game designers to cover a greater amount of combinations of player skills/gear. It does not matter where it's located: four tools is still for tools.

It will build confidence then you can take on normal

You're approaching it pessimistically. It is also allowing to develop skills in order to beat Normal.

[Shassa]

Borror0 and sirgog have the right idea. I'm grateful for their comments too, because quite frankly there's a lot of condescension and snobbery going on in this thread. It was starting to get me down.

I'm very grateful that Turbine's putting an easy setting in, especially for level 14+ quests. As an avid soloer, this will allow me to enjoy much more content.

No, I don't care to be "challenged" like some of you think I should be challenged. I think I'm challenged enough right now, thank you. This isn't military training, this is a game. What might be fun and exhilirating for some of you may be downright nerve-wracking and frustrating for me, so please allow me to enjoy the game my way, okay? Those of you who made snide "diaper" and "L2P" comments are being incredibly childish.

Also, so what if people flag quests on Casual. It doesn't make the least bit of difference. A first time through a raid is your first time, regardless of how you got there. Just because you ran with a group through Elite Wizard-King doesn't make you magically better at understanding the DQ raid.

There is absolutely no downside to this. They are merely making DDO more accessible to a broader audience. You do want DDO to keep growing, right?

[uhgungawa]

They made it so it scales if you solo on norm. now they are giving you an even easier mode. But you also get the same rewards.

Like I said, I like that they are giving something for everyone. But it's down right stupid to give out the same perks for taking the "easy button" (ingredients, special drops, ect)
Call it that you like, but if you don't earn it, you don't deserve it.

[Borror0]

But you also get the same rewards.

That's false. You get -50% XP, less favor and apparently reduced loot as well.

[Aussieee]

That's false. You get -50% XP, less favor and apparently reduced loot as well.

Doh thats a bummer, I was thinking that leveling up my TR just got a whole alot faster

[uhgungawa]

That's false. You get -50% XP, less favor and apparently reduced loot as well.

and what happens when you're not worried about XP or vender trash?

Crafting ingredients, Boot pieces, shards and discs, ect..... Never mind ultra rare drops, should taking the easy path be rewarded with these idems? I'd say no.

[Borror0]

and what happens when you're not worried about XP or vender trash?

I never said that it was perfectly design. In fact, I said the opposite and said there should be greater incentives for playing higher difficulty settings.

However, you said that Easy gave the "same rewards" which is a false statement.

[uhgungawa]

However, you said that Easy gave the "same rewards" which is a false statement.

All depends on what you consider as rewards.

[Aussieee]

and what happens when you're not worried about XP or vender trash?

Crafting ingredients, Boot pieces, shards and discs, ect..... Never mind ultra rare drops, should taking the easy path be rewarded with these idems? I'd say no.

Than you can also hit the easy button. One thing I don't understand is why worry how anybody else is getting the quest done or how they enjoy the game. Maybe perhaps when people see how easy it is on "casual" they can try higher dificulty. I can see how a group of 6 new players and I mean totally new would have hard time with a dungeon. Somethimes people just need to stick with it and get it done,but Turbine decides to make it easier on them. Stil doesn't bother me at all ,if the group can't get it done they stil can wipe on "casual"

[chaos_master]

People will be discussing the pros and cons of this long after this post of mine, but what really caught my eye:

EDIT: Just had a thought, Casual Stealer of Souls anyone? It's not a raid after all...

Rune farming will become a much more practiced sport I think. And while that does appeal to me given I'm making a DT armor right now, thinking back at my experience with Sor'jek, I can see why people don't want an easy button.

That again, the moment this comes out I'm off to ransack Pray and SoS on casual

[Borror0]

All depends on what you consider as rewards.

Most players do consider XP to be worthwhile for as long as they are under the level cap.

[Durion]

Borror0 and sirgog have the right idea. I'm grateful for their comments too, because quite frankly there's a lot of condescension and snobbery going on in this thread. It was starting to get me down.

I'm very grateful that Turbine's putting an easy setting in, especially for level 14+ quests. As an avid soloer, this will allow me to enjoy much more content.

No, I don't care to be "challenged" like some of you think I should be challenged. I think I'm challenged enough right now, thank you. This isn't military training, this is a game. What might be fun and exhilirating for some of you may be downright nerve-wracking and frustrating for me, so please allow me to enjoy the game my way, okay? Those of you who made snide "diaper" and "L2P" comments are being incredibly childish.

Also, so what if people flag quests on Casual. It doesn't make the least bit of difference. A first time through a raid is your first time, regardless of how you got there. Just because you ran with a group through Elite Wizard-King doesn't make you magically better at understanding the DQ raid.

There is absolutely no downside to this. They are merely making DDO more accessible to a broader audience. You do want DDO to keep growing, right?

Let me translate these "diaper" and "L2P" into less demeaning terms. What everyone is getting at is they are worried about the crowd you referred to (avid soloists/casual) getting into raids with them. You can't be a soloist (you can, thats a different thread though) and hope to complete a 12 man raid, it takes teamwork. If the keying is too difficult for you to run on normal, what are you going to do when you do get to the raid and have to complete it at a more difficult setting that what you're used to?

Yes, the first time you run a raid is the first time, regardless. However, if you run through that Elite Wizard-King, chances are you stand a better chance of surviving the raid as hopefully you know how to adapt to the challenges your going to face in that DQ raid.

For you, there is no downside. For those that are grinding away at the Shroud (of which 4 is apparently fixed), having players that cannot adapt to the "more difficult" (normal) quests that you need to key this raid, what are you going to do when you have to run that raid on a harder diff. Nobody is belittling anyone for wanting to run casual (most of us anyhow), what we're not looking forward to is more wiping in pug raids as players that cannot adapt to survive start joining the posted LFM's. Its not your game that has them (so much) in an uproar, its when the soloist/casual player affects theirs that has them barking.

Lastly, if the comments on here are already aggravating you, what are you going to do when 11 other people in a raid that a "casual player" possibly (possibly, not definately) aggro on you for causing a party wipe?

[Dexathor]

Can we please have a "noob" setting for update 4 where you just remove all the mobs and traps from the dungeon so we can just run to the end chest and get the reward? Most of the quests, especially the low- and mid-level quests, are easy enough to solo on normal already so there is no need for a "casual" or even a "solo" option. I know you are trying to make this game easier for new players but this feels like you implement cheat codes into the game.

[Junts]

Borror0 and sirgog have the right idea. I'm grateful for their comments too, because quite frankly there's a lot of condescension and snobbery going on in this thread. It was starting to get me down.

I'm very grateful that Turbine's putting an easy setting in, especially for level 14+ quests. As an avid soloer, this will allow me to enjoy much more content.

No, I don't care to be "challenged" like some of you think I should be challenged. I think I'm challenged enough right now, thank you. This isn't military training, this is a game. What might be fun and exhilirating for some of you may be downright nerve-wracking and frustrating for me, so please allow me to enjoy the game my way, okay? Those of you who made snide "diaper" and "L2P" comments are being incredibly childish.

Also, so what if people flag quests on Casual. It doesn't make the least bit of difference. A first time through a raid is your first time, regardless of how you got there. Just because you ran with a group through Elite Wizard-King doesn't make you magically better at understanding the DQ raid.

There is absolutely no downside to this. They are merely making DDO more accessible to a broader audience. You do want DDO to keep growing, right?

While there're some people being stupid in this thread, I'd like to explain this this way:

As you play DDO, not only does your character gain in strength along with your foes due to mechanical and equipment benefits (better spells, better abilities, etc), but generally you learn more about playing. The goal of higher level quests, therefore, is not just to continue to provide roughly the same mechanical challenge that quests 5 levels ago did for equivalent equipment/enhancement levels, but also to provide about the same challenge to your game knowledge. Otherwise, DDO will consistently get easier as you play it.

There are a variety of methods Turbine has used because this difficulty, the quest vs player dynamic, has a tendancy to ramp up way, way faster than a new player is going to learn as they level, because the level cap has been lower numbers previously, and consequently when new quests were released they were not designed for say, fresh level 14 characters, they were designed for people who had been level 14 for 6 months already. New enhancements and character abilities added since can frequently null this extra difficulty back out by making you massively overpower the quest relative to its initial design (as an example, look at the wall of fire spell and imagine that it wasn't -in the game- until people were at the level 12 cap, and look at how heavily used it is in level 8-11 content .. that stuff was -way- harder before WOF).

The criticism of these different methods Turbine has added to grant new players some parity with quests (scaling, casual difficulty, the last two entire adventure packs) is that they run the risk of removing enough of that challenge to the player such that people who level up and play primarily using them are woefully unequipped to step into the normal versions of stuff that was pre-tuned higher. In other words, no one here really has a problem with a difficulty that makes a very difficult solo quest like Running with the Devils or Prey on the Hunter possible for a soloist or group of new players. What they are cocnerned with is that this difficulty may make these quests -so- easy that you don't have to learn any of the tricks required to play the quest on normal or higher difficulties, and consequently when you do group with people, you will aggro groups of mobs or otherwise play in a way that, while it works fine in casual difficulty, can cause instant party wipes or quest failures even in groups of seasoned level 20 characters.

To use your own example of Chamber of Raiyum and the Demon Queen raid, lets say you are a caster. In a realm of way lower incoming mob damage and far, far lower mob hp, it would probably be possible to run casual chamber of raiyum without having such luxuries as a superior combustion 4 item, some source of fire lore, and all the proper fire enhancements. However, you would be totally useless in an elite version of the quest without them. What's the issue? There's no scaling in the raid. To run it on normal, much less elite, you need the gear you needed to run elite wizking. If you do it on casual which doesn't require the same level of equipment, and you then join the raid and expect to contribute, you will quickly find that you are incredibly mechanically lacking .. something that elite wiz-king would have proven, but casual may fail to. And then the group that took you as a caster expecting you to provide substantial damage to the queen (the caster's job in this quest) isn't getting it because your wall of fire is doing 30 damage per tick to her after her fire resistance instead of 70-90. And that's the difference between the raid succeeding and the raid failing or costing some poor cleric 10 mana pots worth of blade barrier spamming when it turns out you don't actually deal damage. That's why whether you can do elite wizking matters. If its too easy on casual, you are not prepared!

We don't know that this will be the case, but there is becoming a -very- large gap between the path that Turbine is essentially providing for new player advancement without too much holdback, and these quests as they exist and are run on their typical difficulties. To again point at the vale example, the raid at the end of the 5 vale quests is a rather stringent equipment check even for players who have run those 5 quests. It is really punitive to people who have equipped poorly in survivability areas like false life items, constitution bonuses, fortification and extra hit point items like the Minos Legens. While its possible to get carried in a group through the flagging quests without all these things, players who do tend to die .. quickly, and repeatedly, when they then eventually hop into the Thirteenth Eclipse. However, the fact that its nearly impossible to contribute to your own flagging for the raid without these items on your character means that most players will recognize 'I need better survivability' after struggling through it.

Even with that being true, there are a lot of players joining groups for this raid these days who are simply woefully unprepared to contribute to it, and in fact are so ill-equipped that simply keeping them from not being dead all the time is a massive party drain. The worry of established players in this thread is that casual will make it even more likely that these players will flag for the raid and think 'oh, those forum people going on about gfl+con+minos legens are overstating it, I only need a couple of those, my 180 hp is fine', then join our raid group and die in 2 hits over and over and over and over and over until their gear falls off. And if you think I'm exaggerating even a little bit what happens to characters like that in that raid, and raids harder than it, I think you will find that I am not. That such characters may only die 4-5 times per run is usually testament to incredible healers or the rest of the group so massively over-gearing and zerging the raid that they effectively kill everything before the slower new player has the chance to fight it and die to it.

As you can imagine this is not enjoyable for either the experienced players or the new one.

We don't want you to not be able to solo; we want soloing to still force you to experience and learn the basic lessons of gameplay that are designed into each tier of questing to prepare you to join groups with other players and still contribute. The danger of casual isn't that you can do quests; its rather the danger that you may hit level 19 without ever having learned the gameplay lessons that exist in level 15, 16, 18 and 19 content, and after duo flagging on casual for tower of despair with your friend, you join my pug for it and your having 200 hp during the endfight against a boss who heals 20% of his hp every time someone dies makes for a rather large problem for everyone else.

While this isn't aimed at you in particular, and in fact as someone who posts on the forums at all you are much more likely to have read about stuff like that and the essentialness of this equipment and these dangers, there remain many, many new players who do not, and who are getting through to high end content so woefully unprepared for it, in player knowledge, that they can ruin hours of gameplay for others inadvertantly. This isn't good for them (because once they do it, there's pretty much no chance those other 10-11 people will group with them again) and it's not good for the others, either.

We don't know if casual will make this problem worse or better. If RWTD etc still are hard enough that you need to acquire better gear to do them on casual and its just a nerfing of incoming damage etc such to make it soloable by someone who isnt a super twinked caster or cleric, thats fine. The danger is that a lower exp, lower loot and way easier progression system will eventually get you to level 20 completely unprepared for the challenges of level 16 elite quests, much less level 20 or epic content.

It would be bad if casual so completely separated your progression that people can't switch back and forth between it and more normal difficulties without having to re-learn everything

[chaos_master]

Alternatively, to lessen the impact of the problem most vets are seeing, namely "casual" players attempting the raids in the areas they have completed on the new difficulty, maybe a prerequisite for flagging could state that you need to have completed those quests on Normal?

[Draccus]

Can we have "auto" mode too?

That mode would allow you to walk into a quest and have a timer start. After an established amount of time, you would get your XP, your loot, and your favor and could just step back out of the quest. This would allow new players who are having trouble figuring out how to fight or cast spells or move their characters to still advance.

(Kidding, of course. This is a good change and basically just ads a differently named solo option to all quests. No impact to the game if you don't want to use it)