New Difficulty Feedback: Casual

[adamkatt]

oh Good - I've Been Wanting To Run Against The Demon Queen On My Level 6 Cleric.

Lol!!!!

[Orry]

Perhaps if you could do the flagging quests on casual but not have them allow you to do the raids? Allowing people to familiarize themselves with the quests so they can flag more easily later, but if they are doing the casual setting because they have things that keep them from grouping then a raid shouldn't interest them anyway, if you have time to do the raid, you have the time to prepare, at least that's the idea I get from reading this.

[Twerpp]

Really sucks I kind of liked the fact that PEOPLE THAT SUCK SO BAD THEY CANT EVEN FLAG DONT BELONG IN RAIDS!

L2P

[Razcar]

Really sucks I kind of liked the fact that PEOPLE THAT SUCK SO BAD THEY CANT EVEN FLAG DONT BELONG IN RAIDS!

L2P

You do have a point. The Casual setting along with Dungeon Scaling might prove troublesome for pug raids. If you wanted to raid before, you had to group eventually if you were a new or inexperienced player - and hopefully you learnt something from experienced players during this. That DDO became harder at around level 9-10 meant that new players had to put some effort into learning the game, and this prepared them for end game content. Now you might be able to solo, on Casual, all the way until you apply to that Shroud group.

A negative spin-off effect might be that pug raiding will be abandoned by experienced players, which would be sad. A nice aspect of DDO is that we have (succesful ) pug raids. This change might WoW:ify raiding - no-one will dare to include an unknown player who very well might never have been in a group in DDO before.

[Hafeal]

Nice post with a lot to chew on (+ for you B).

It's the way the brain works. I'm working on a thread that explains it in length so you can wait for that (or read A Theory of Fun for Game Design), but here is the short version.

"Fun" is learning at a degree of difficulty that is neither so hard you want to give up nor so easy that you're barely learning in a context where you don't feel pressured by the outcome (ie no one really dies, you won't get yelled at for failing, etc.). This is a definition of fun that is agreed upon that by the vast majority of game designers and is supported by a fair deal of neuroscience. For example, cognitive neuroscientist Edward A Vessel says the following:Basically, without new information to chew on (ie new challenges), games become dull.

This is vastly supported by many anecdotal fact ("I complete the game, so I don't need to play it another time") and studies (games that are constantly updated, multiplayer elements, great randomization preventing memorization or have user-generated content tend to have a much longer lifespan than games that don't), too.

Thing is, if games are learning tools, what they teach is how to beat them. Beating them is what is fun, so it is to expect that players will players will strive for the most optimal strategies and beat them. This is how "exploits" arise: people think laterally and find ways to beat the challenge that was unintended. As game designer Raph Koster says, the destiny of a game is to eventually become boring.

When you look at MMOs in specific, there are two common "challenges' to overcome:

• The obstacle: a monster, a quest or a puzzle you have beat
• The goal: flagging or grinding

In the case of the former, attempting a greater difficulty is fun: you're facing something new and stronger that you have to grok. However, in the case of the latter, attempting a greater difficulty is not necessarily fun as it depends on what the optimal strategy is. After all, beating the challenge is getting there as fast as possible. It makes no sense to lengthen yourself for no reason.

This is what lead a few MUD designer to say, "The journey is the reward is a f--ing lie. (People who much rather have the princess.)"

Anyway, that's the short version. I'll post the longer version whenever it's done. Oh, and you should really buy A Theory of Fun for Game Design by Raph Koster. Easily the best book I read in years and it changed how I view games, probably forever.

[Sirea]

Um...I thought this was what Dungeon Scaling was kind of intended for?

I agree with Strakeln; take Dungeon Scaling out now that there is a new option for the soloist.

[Junts]

I'm glad Rodney finally got his own difficulty.

[Junts]

It's the way the brain works. I'm working on a thread that explains it in length so you can wait for that (or read A Theory of Fun for Game Design), but here is the short version.

"Fun" is learning at a degree of difficulty that is neither so hard you want to give up nor so easy that you're barely learning in a context where you don't feel pressured by the outcome (ie no one really dies, you won't get yelled at for failing, etc.). This is a definition of fun that is agreed upon that by the vast majority of game designers and is supported by a fair deal of neuroscience. For example, cognitive neuroscientist Edward A Vessel says the following:
Basically, without new information to chew on (ie new challenges), games become dull.

This is vastly supported by many anecdotal fact ("I complete the game, so I don't need to play it another time") and studies (games that are constantly updated, multiplayer elements, great randomization preventing memorization or have user-generated content tend to have a much longer lifespan than games that don't), too.

Thing is, if games are learning tools, what they teach is how to beat them. Beating them is what is fun, so it is to expect that players will players will strive for the most optimal strategies and beat them. This is how "exploits" arise: people think laterally and find ways to beat the challenge that was unintended. As game designer Raph Koster says, the destiny of a game is to eventually become boring.

When you look at MMOs in specific, there are two common "challenges' to overcome:

• The obstacle: a monster, a quest or a puzzle you have beat
• The goal: flagging or grinding

In the case of the former, attempting a greater difficulty is fun: you're facing something new and stronger that you have to grok. However, in the case of the latter, attempting a greater difficulty is not necessarily fun as it depends on what the optimal strategy is. After all, beating the challenge is getting there as fast as possible. It makes no sense to lengthen yourself for no reason.

This is what lead a few MUD designer to say, "The journey is the reward is a f--ing lie. (People who much rather have the princess.)"

Anyway, that's the short version. I'll post the longer version whenever it's done. Oh, and you should really buy A Theory of Fun for Game Design by Raph Koster. Easily the best book I read in years and it changed how I view games, probably forever.

And the princess better be at least fairly hot.

[Borror0]

Um...I thought this was what Dungeon Scaling was kind of intended for?

One adjusts the challenge based on group size while leaving the rewards intact and the other simply makes dungeons easier regardless of group size but decreases the rewards gained. The goals are completely different.

[Angelus_dead]

the important part is - play the quests with however many (or few) people you feel like.

Are you aware of how inconsistent raids and epics are from that design philosophy?

[Angelus_dead]

My 20th brd/rog is not able to solo 'Running with the Devils' only because of the self-healing paladin. It's a red-named, so Glitterdust, Holds, Dance, deception/radiance, etc. do not help me win. A lot of my character's damage comes from sneak attack.

WTB +5 Shock Rapier of Deception.
ISO Create Undead pages.

Also, it's notable that due to a design oversight, Dungeon Scaling didn't do enough to make that encounter easier. It appears that the scaling system doesn't reduce monster's rate of self-healing as much as it does his hp total, meaning that he might not get as much easier as he should. If that was fixed then maybe you wouldn't need Casual.

When Dungeon Scaling was first previewed I tested a bunch of self-healing bosses and found that problem on all of them: Two-toed Tobias, Ardan ir'Karsmore, Rort Rotseer, ARN01D, Whisperdoom, Taeron Rimnon, and more.

[asphodeli]

This could be useful in selling the less-popular adventure packs (e.g. Necropolis 1 to 3, honestly, not many people will do those dungeons), and allows people who don't like min/maxing to play on higher level dungeons. Thumbs up for Turbine.

[Mr_Ed7]

This is GOOD NEWS!

In SUMMARY: No more SOLO!

[Xyfiel]

Normally when I pug they want to do elite for the favor anyway hoping a few of us are twinked enough to cover it...


So in update 4 we can expect another upgrade for those who can't handle casual?

Don't have healing/ammo/open lock/shrine, no worries, DDO store
Don't have to hit, no worries, grazing hits
Don't have friends, no worries, dungeon scaling
Don't have experience/gear, no worries, casual difficulty
Don't have tactics and a desire to learn how to live longer, no worries, spell reductions
Don't have any chance still? We are introducing hand-held difficulty just for you! A Turbine GM will enter the quest for you and assist you with auto killing baddies and auto solving puzzles for you. All for the low cost of 100 Turbine Points!

[uhgungawa]

I am curious of the term choice.

Easy, Normal, Hard and Elite feels more natural and intuitive Casual, Normal, Hard and Elite, so why "Casual"?

Because "Check Yourself For Diaper Rash" was too long of a name for the setting

[Durion]

I feel compelled to reply here:

Going into a new quest is somewhat intimidating
you don't know how hard/complex the quest is (difficulty of quest widely varies dependin on your build)
si you may be reluctant to go into famous quests
(ie i never set a foot in the Xorian cypher althought i m level 12, maybe it will be piece of cake, maybe not)

I do think Easy Mode is a good thing:
- it allows us to see the quest in easy mode before going to the real deal
- for those who don't care much on loot/xp/favor we can still enjoy the story
- it may allow us to flag faster
- if a specific quest in an arc is too difficult, a easy mode is nice

I think i mostly use this feature to preview quests before bringing my GF toon on normal/hard

However i'd gladly admit that with Dungeon Scaling (best feature ever IMHO) and Hirelings, easy mode is an overkill

I think the big issue is THIS leading to THAT.

[Visty]

havent tested it yet, but for me it sounds like easier farming stuff for mindsunder

[Kalari]

I maybe talking from emotions but why? why would we give an option to new players to tell them never try to get better? why make a quest so easy for six players that they have minimal to now no chance of ever failing?

Is failing or wiping a quest so bad now that we have to set the bar so low that people are not use to this? And what happens when this casual group decides "we can take on anything lets go raid..?"

Unless thats going to get the casual touch to? I just get a deep sense of dread when I see things like this. I know its not your fault Tolero so im not shooting the messenger. But all of this is leaving a bitter taste in this girls mouth ddo is hitting a dumbing down phase big time and im getting more and more worried with these changes.

[Borror0]

I maybe talking from emotions but why?

There is a large market for what Nicole Lazzaro calls "easy fun". While hardcore gamers thrive on difficult challenges that might cause them to fail a few times before succeeding, there are casual gamers who simply enjoy the joy of exploring and defeating monsters. Since DDO's new business model is designed to appeal to them (or at least far more than a subscription business model), it only makes sense that Turbine wants to provide a gaming experience that they enjoy.

why would we give an option to new players to tell them never try to get better?

No. In fact, it's in Turbine's interest to encourage us to get better and attempt more difficult challenges.

This is why there are more than one difficulty setting and why there are incentives to play on Normal over Easy.

And what happens when this casual group decides "we can take on anything lets go raid..?"

Most likely, they will fail. They might surprise us, though. Some of the older raids are pretty easy on Normal.

[phalaeo]

Been premuim a couple months...havent found any objectionable content...

That might change if the vets get kinky outfits though!

*grin*

The objectionable content comes more from the players than the nature of the game. I would love to play with my BF's 10 year old, but user xomments in general can be such that I feel it's inappropriate for her at least. A bit different if you are hand holding, tho.