Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Matuse]

I guess I just don't understand any of the purpose behind these changes. The whole point of Heroic Surge is to make air elementals and trip-spammers (dogs, bezekira, mostly) less annoying.

So...why not - bear with me here - CHANGE THE MOBS? Have air elementals come out of whirlwhind like djinnis do (a suggestion that has been made a couple thousand times in the past couple years), and either increase the timer on trip, make monsters with trip respect the timer (I've been improved trip by the named hyena in the Vale 3 times in 10 seconds), and don't let them spam trip AND improved trip...one or the other. It would also be nice if monster trip actually required a hit roll.

This whole business with Heroic Surge seems unnecessary, complicated, annoying, further breaks down the wall of the monsters and the players going by the same rules, and probably a source of a whole new slew of bugs that won't get fixed for a year. Why take the incredibly hard way, when there's a perfectly easy way that accomplishes the stated goal?

[Borror0]

The whole point of Heroic Surge is to make air elementals and trip-spammers (dogs, bezekira, mostly) less annoying.

No. That's not the purpose.

See:

As you’re all aware, we’ve taken steps to make the game more accessible. Part of this effort included making the game more solo and small-party friendly and the dungeon scaling system has been very successful in this regard. That said, while this system reduces CC duration (on player characters) when appropriate, CC can still be a problem when the debuff is immediately re-cast on the character. Player still ends up being held for a long time, feels helpless and dies. Fun? Obviously subjective, but for many, not really

[Zenako]

I suspect back at the whiteboard brainstorming session the original concept seemed like a clever solution, but as things are prone to do, the original intent got morphed into something much bigger and more expansive and lost its focus. There appears to have been at least the intent to try and address a whole slew of perceived problems, largely based on exit survey type feedback from disgruntled new players.

Some playstyles will be all but unaffected and if those in the decision process were only used to those playstyles, then the whole scheme might have seemed benign. Alas as the 40+ pages of this thread show, had they been considering everything, perhaps some of those decisions might have gone down a different path (if at all).

The most glaring thing is being turned off (HS), but other changes are occuring which will have an impact on many groups, and it will be especially interesting to follow the chatter on various channels when it goes live and spells that used to work on one day, are no longer as effective in thier goals the day after. Gonna be lots of messes I am guessing, since such a small fraction of the player base actually reads the forums or even the release notes of new updates.

[Favis]

I suspect back at the whiteboard brainstorming session the original concept seemed like a clever solution, but as things are prone to do, the original intent got morphed into something much bigger and more expansive and lost its focus. There appears to have been at least the intent to try and address a whole slew of perceived problems, largely based on exit survey type feedback from disgruntled new players.

Some playstyles will be all but unaffected and if those in the decision process were only used to those playstyles, then the whole scheme might have seemed benign. Alas as the 40+ pages of this thread show, had they been considering everything, perhaps some of those decisions might have gone down a different path (if at all).

Agree that the it's realy complex as there are so many diffrent playstiles.
And the effect also can be impacted depening on lvl, gear, monsters and if you are going for normal/hard/elit.

[sephiroth1084]

I would really dislike a much more frequent save to break applied to FtS. I like my statue gardens in Tor!

[Zenako]

I would really dislike a much more frequent save to break applied to FtS. I like my statue gardens in Tor!

Then don't plan on running Tor again any time soon after the update, unless they also figure out a way to help there. Put it this way, Trogs in House D Depths quests were busting out of DC33 FtS in around 15 seconds or so. Sometimes sooner, rarely longer, unless you also hit them with an Energy Drain in which case that pushed their saves to needing a 20 it looked like.

[sephiroth1084]

The don't plan on running Tor again any time soon after the update, unless they also figure out a way to help there. Put it this was, Trogs in House D Depths quests were busting out of DC33 FtS in around 15 seconds or so. Sometimes sooner, rarely longer, unless you also hit them with an Energy Drain in which case that pushed their saves to needing a 20 it looked like.

Well, I like doing so in more than just Tor... Man, that's complete balls! Really? Level ****ing 6 quest monsters are busting out of endgame wizard DCs that quickly?

I just went from being somewhat ambivalent about this change to absolutely loathing it! ****!

[TommyBoy]

there is nothing wrong with CC leave it alone. It has been ok for 4 years.

Old adage "if its not broken don't fix it"

[Angelus_dead]

No. That's not the purpose.

The MadFloyd text you quoted contradicts your position. He says it was meant to help against enemies who reapply CC very frequently. Among other things that includes dogs and elementals.

[Borror0]

The MadFloyd text you quoted contradicts your position. He says it was meant to help against enemies who reapply CC very frequently. Among other things that includes dogs and elementals.

Matuse's post clearly implied that he or she believed the change was to address the problem air elementals and "trip-spammers," but not other mobs.

[Matuse]

Matuse's post clearly implied that he or she believed the change was to address the problem air elementals and "trip-spammers," but not other mobs.

Yea, where could I have possibly gotten this idea.

Oh wait...the release notes.

Some monsters regularly end up on players' “most hated” lists, and these usually include our good friends the Air Elementals, Wolves or Worgs, and other monsters that have repeated effects that prevent players from acting. In Update Three, several changes are being made to reduce these frustrating experiences.

Yea. No idea where I could have gotten such a silly notion.

[Borror0]

Oh wait...the release notes.

That quote does not support your position, since it contains the words "and other monsters that have repeated effects that prevent players from acting." Additionally, it's not the Heroic Surge passage. Don't me wrong, I can see why you got confused (even I was at first) but you're wrong.

If I was a Turbine employee, though, I would clarify that just to avoid any unnecessary misunderstanding. *cough*

[sephiroth1084]

That quote does not support your position, since it contains the words "and other monsters that have repeated effects that prevent players from acting." Additionally, it's not the Heroic Surge passage. Don't me wrong, I can see why you got confused (even I was at first) but you're wrong.

If I was a Turbine employee, though, I would clarify that just to avoid any unnecessary misunderstanding. *cough*

I dunno...seems to me that that section from the release notes was indicating fairly strongly that Air Eles and tripping monsters were a big part of the reason for the change. Which paragraph that's from may have an impact upon the interpretation, but I don't see how you could not think that HS was generated partly in direct response to our almost universal loathing of air elementals.

[Auran82]

It sounds to me like the whole idea started out as:

"Lets stop effects that render a player unable to act from being reapplied over and over" and during development got twisted beyond recognition.

The whole 'heroic surge' thing doesn't really fit everything else (to me anyway) though I have never really looked into 4th edition, is this something covered in there? (they seem to love calling everything surges)

[sephiroth1084]

It sounds to me like the whole idea started out as:

"Lets stop effects that render a player unable to act from being reapplied over and over" and during development got twisted beyond recognition.

The whole 'heroic surge' thing doesn't really fit everything else (to me anyway) though I have never really looked into 4th edition, is this something covered in there? (they seem to love calling everything surges)

I think a temporary immunity to an effect would have solved the problem in most cases not involving flesh to stone, and we have a spell (and scrolls) whose only purpose is to counter that spell. AND we have ways to help the person break free (bestow buffs to boost Fort saves). If FtS is nerfed like this, then what is the point of Stone to Flesh?

As it is, Lesser Restoration and even Restoration are more of a luxury now than really worthwhile spells due to the stat damage and level drain nerf.

[Matuse]

Ok, here's a more extensive quote:

Crowd Control & Spell Improvements

Some monsters regularly end up on players' “most hated” lists, and these usually include our good friends the Air Elementals, Wolves or Worgs, and other monsters that have repeated effects that prevent players from acting. In Update Three, several changes are being made to reduce these frustrating experiences.
Heroic Surge

This new effect provides a brief period of immunity from crowd control once you escape. When a target is crowd controlled, a counter will increment for each second that they cannot act. Once the counter reaches the critical point (i.e. you've been made helpless too long) the crowd controlling effect will be dispelled. This allows players the opportunity to break free and defend themselves before the next onslaught rather than being completely helpless while monsters spam them with effects repeatedly.

I don't see how this can be read in any way OTHER than a mechanic against knockdown spam.

[Shade]

Ok, here's a more extensive quote:



I don't see how this can be read in any way OTHER than a mechanic against knockdown spam.

Whatever the intention, the changes never really helped with that.

I tested it out in running with the devils.. The air elemental ambush is as bad as ever, it took a good 30 seconds of constant knockdowns before heroic surge triggered, and even then it was gone after 4 seconds just to be followed up by the same thing.
If i was on much any other char then my 800 hp Barbarian, I wouldn't of even survived to see how it worked.

They did do a 2nd change after the patch that added that lame idea, to specificly address air elemental knockdown after removing the heroic surge nonsense. I have not re-tested it.

[Matuse]

So again the question becomes: Why not just change the offending monsters, instead of the whole mess we're now going to be stuck with?

[Zenako]

Whatever the intention, the changes never really helped with that.

I tested it out in running with the devils.. The air elemental ambush is as bad as ever, it took a good 30 seconds of constant knockdowns before heroic surge triggered, and even then it was gone after 4 seconds just to be followed up by the same thing.
If i was on much any other char then my 800 hp Barbarian, I wouldn't of even survived to see how it worked.

They did do a 2nd change after the patch that added that lame idea, to specificly address air elemental knockdown after removing the heroic surge nonsense. I have not re-tested it.

Largely agree with this. My experience was with the simialar knockdown effect of the Maralith in the Demon's Den. (With a well armored with nice DR5/- high HP Cleric). Got smacked around a long time, was able to get off one quickened Heal midway on a brief standup, before after about that same 1/2 a minute, got the surge and was able to move away and put some distance between us once again. Other than my Paladin, not sure any other character would have survived. It is not a panecea, just a semi random save for a few seconds once you have been abused. You got a few seconds of immunity and then can be knocked around again all over.

Also have not been back to check out that aspect again once Mad indicated that HS was not going live with this update.

[Kriogen]

So again the question becomes: Why not just change the offending monsters, instead of the whole mess we're now going to be stuck with?

One quick&dirty fix vs many, many monsters, spells and abilities to fix. Whats easier?