Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Borror0]

So why should durations be lessened? It doesn't affect PG playing.

It would. With a three minute long Fascinate or with Flesh to Stone, there is simply no way any monster will catch up unless it has ability to teleport (like orthons). If you reduce the duration enough, that's no longer the case. By the time it the duration is over, the players won't be too far and the monsters can catch up for retribution. With a three minute long Fascinate or with Flesh to Stone, it's too easy to bug out respawns. By limiting the duration, it's not as easy.

In both cases, their playstyle IS affected.

Borror0, not sure how much you checked out the effects out on Lamaland, but the HS aspect was actually in some ways the least of the worries.

Then, we're in agreement.

I don't like what they did to Dominate and Flesh to Stone, either. I covered both in the thread before, but it's worth repeating - I think.

Like I said to KKDragonLord a few pages ago, it's important for Dominate to have an at least good duration since it's balanced around the assumption mobs will follow you around unlike Mass Suggestion or Mass Charm Monster. If it can't do that (and it seems we came to the same results), it's a problem because it means the spell is too weak. As for Flesh to Stone, I think they over did it with the frequency of saves. I'm not sure how frequent it is but something like once every 20 seconds and a maximum duration of 1 minute would sound much more appropriate.

They see "nerf" [...] but they don't see "benefit."

I realize that but I think most people overestimate the impact it will really have, because of what you just said, The word "nerf" has a really powerful negative connotation in people's mind and, as a result, they panic when they see anything that resembles to it. The truth is, unless you retreat forward a lot, helped by CC, or that you stall mob generator, I strongly doubt you'll see much change from a decrease in the duration.

I can see why Facinate is an issue at higher levels. A group that has been Facinated is often a group that has been defeated for all purposes but the kill exp bonus, making it effectively an AoE save-or-die with very high save DC.

Spot on.

[Junts]

I know you have Borr, my problem is the way you want to about it. I read way more than I post.
Please stop looking at DDO as just another MMO. It is not, it is based on an established rule set, unlike all the others. Your suggestions would be fine for WoW or even LoTRO, but not DDO.




I am not arguing that nothing needs to change. I understand you and Junts. I agree with the overall premise that something needs to be done to balance CC, just not the way you are suggesting. IMO, it lessens our options even more. Lessening durations won't effect power gamers. When I run with PG's or high end content, CC is used to keep the mob still while the party plays [U["Whack-A-Mob"[/U](tm). In PUGs or small groups, CC is a way to control the battle and even add DPS, and when soloing, it is fun to turn their own comrades on the mobs, using less resources and danger to me or small party. Lesser durations then affect small/solo/less than top tier players.



See earlier response. So why should durations be lessened? It doesn't affect PG playing. This section above that you wrote is why it appears that you think that CC should only be support for DPS, and not a viable tactic to complete a mission.

Again, quest and AI design changes would be more helpful than an across the board nerf to CC durations.



Ok, first stop cherry picking again. You took it out of context. I said that in small groups/less than optimal groups/solo, it was nice to have that duration, that I earned on that character by leveling them to increase their power, to solve quest objectives, whether it is killing them off slowly, raising a party member or two, or just stopping a Charlie Foxtrot situation from getting worse and get it back under control. You claim that I said I needed the longer durations. No, that is not what I said. I said it was nice to have that option if current situations required it. This portion of your comment still shows that your view of CC should only apply to Whack-A-Mob play style.

If it becomes weaker than it already is, it won't be used. You know that just as well as I. Human nature always picks the best and leaves the rest.

By the way, are you even going to say anything about the timer on respawns that I put out, or are you going to ignore it because it is not what you want? A little give and take on your behalf in this discussion would be refreshing. It may not be a perfect idea, but I think it has merit.



Fair enough. I don't lecture people on these forums because they aren't my kids or my students, and I believe most have a clue about this game until they say differently. Saves me a lot of typing and hurt feelings.

For those who don't think I know anyhting about top end or epic game play, think again. Just because I don't play enough to have everything in this game, or talk about it all the time on the forums, doesn't mean I don't do top end stuff. I still manage even with my "sub-optimal" toons and equipment. Statements about another game play style or preference also shows how one sided an argument is. That leads to thoughts that "CC durations need to be nerfed since I don't need it to be that long".

As one of those power gamers on your server, I think you are missing the point being that we do use crowd control, situationally, when its still overpowered .. but because of the blanket immunities, that's rarely true. However, if you look at a more balanced CC spell like web, you will see that we do, in fact, cast that quite often. Its just that very few cc spells are practically useful outside their overpowered situations due to the blanket immunities. Shortening durations alone isn't the answer .. letting cc work in more situations is. But when the durations are extreme, they can't do that because you can use it to trivialize content to such an extreme degree. You have to control those factors before they can let you land cc spells more often.

[Aspenor]

Fascinate is actually more like the PnP spells Gate (when used with a little imagination), Reverse Gravity, and Maze (among others).

Just die. No save.

[KKDragonLord]

Fascinate is actually more like the PnP spells Gate (when used with a little imagination), Reverse Gravity, and Maze (among others).

Just die. No save.

Congrats Asp, you just wrote the hyperbole of the year.

[Junts]

Hes actually totally correct, used properly thats exactly how effective fascinate is on DDO.

Because you choose not to use it that way does not make it impossible.

[KKDragonLord]

Hes actually totally correct, used properly thats exactly how effective fascinate is on DDO.

Because you choose not to use it that way does not make it impossible.

Death is very different than Inaction.

The effectiveness might be equal, and that is the problem, but the answer can not come from an arbitrary mechanic.

The answer is not to adjust the ability to the current reality of the game.

The game should be adjusted to the reality of the ability.

All instances where Fascinate and Long CC can be exploited can be fixed through Innovative alternative methods

...and instances where Long CC and Fascinate were Paramount to success should be added to the game.

This is my point.

[Aspenor]

Death is very different than Inaction.

The effectiveness might be equal, and that is the problem, but the answer can not come from an arbitrary mechanic.

The answer is not to adjust the ability to the current reality of the game.

The game should be adjusted to the reality of the ability.

If you read the spells I mentioned, none of them technically directly kill, either (okay, maybe Gate can, not the others). The point is that inaction is no different than death in a purely practical manner. Once incapacitated in such a manner, a large group of monsters poses literally no threat to the party.

Military strategists refer to the tactic as "divide and conquer." A competent party will take down the monsters one by one, and each individual monster will pose literally zero threat while fighting alone.

[KKDragonLord]

Military strategists refer to the tactic as "divide and conquer."

The use of Military Tactics and strategies shouldn't be seen as a bad thing.

What is bad is when a game does not require them.

[Borror0]

The answer is not to adjust the ability to the current reality of the game.

The game should be adjusted to the reality of the ability.

You're probably aware of that but your way to fix things is several times much more time consuming (and therefore costly) than merely changing the duration. You need a solid reasoning and great advantages to make up for the additional efforts required by your chosen method.

I don't deny the possibility that you do, but if so, what are they?

[Aspenor]

The use of Military Tactics and strategies shouldn't be seen as a bad thing.

What is bad is when a game does not require them.

The problem is not their use. It is the lack of challenge that results from their use.

FWIW I don't like heroic surge, especially for monsters. I think there are better ways to go about achieving the same goal.

[Aspenor]

You're probably aware of that but your way to fix things is several times much more time consuming (and therefore costly) than merely changing the duration. You need a solid reasoning to back up the additional efforts required by your chosen method, so what are they?

I must have missed something. I concur that changing the duration of the effects is the way to go, or adjusting the save intervals (i.e. save vs. FtS once every 20-30 seconds).

In the case of fascinate, adding a save interval will do no good at all since the monster has a 5% chance of success. It might as well be zero.

Bards might hate me for this, but who cares....

In PnP fascinate breaks the moment that any member of the party draws a weapon or begins hostile action in any way (i.e. casting spells). In DDO, this could be translated as a save interval every 15-20 seconds with additive bonuses to the will save applied every time the save is rolled. With the massive perform DC's available, they would likely need to have at least a +5 bonus for each save rolled, possibly even +10.

[KKDragonLord]

The problem is not their use. It is the lack of challenge that results from their use.

In this case we are in agreement, their use is not the problem.

In fact, their use is an asset to the game, it enriches the game and make it better.

The lack of challenge from their use its not their problem, its the games problem.

I have already given several possible solutions to the exploits of this ability, and i assumed that my alternative line of thinking would show a different path to go about fixing the issues that the game currently has.

i dont have much time atm to make a lengthy post about this. I will later today.

But the benefits and reasoning should be obvious. A more strategic and varied game, a better game, a smarter game, a game that allows and requires coordination and teamplay, and lastly, a game that respects and works within the scope of the rules of D&D.

[gavagai]

I realize that but I think most people overestimate the impact it will really have, because of what you just said, The word "nerf" has a really powerful negative connotation in people's mind and, as a result, they panic when they see anything that resembles to it. The truth is, unless you retreat forward a lot, helped by CC, or that you stall mob generator, I strongly doubt you'll see much change from a decrease in the duration.

Again, the question isn't "can we do without it?" Many great things can be done with humble resources and talents. Crit Rage was nice; FB is nice too; and we could probably do without either of them. The questions are "is this necessary?" and "how does this help balance?" People panic not because the challenge of a quest, but because they feel the game is designing their playstyle out of existence.

I understand you see this as clearing the road for more balanced CC. However, until we get word that further balancing will come, that optimism is simply something taken on faith. I'd love to have a reason to believe that is the plan; but we don't, and that's IMO one major reason why people are feeling panic. We are taking a caster class that we all admit is generally underpowered (because of immunities) and nerfing them more because their spells, where still effective, have been labeled "excessive." How is "panic" unreasonable?

The changes are going through and we'll see if it is frustrating, and for whom. I'm happy I don't have a character who will be inordinately impacted by this. But I'm irked knowing that most of this frustration could have been avoided with a little more communication about Turbine's strategy for (and LOVE for) their enchanting and crowd controling specialists.

[KKDragonLord]

In PnP fascinate breaks the moment that any member of the party draws a weapon or begins hostile action in any way (i.e. casting spells).

I am not contrary to Fascinate following the PnP rules.

In fact, i would suggest that it breaks at the swing of a weapon, the casting of a spell, or the moment the bard leaves the line of sight of the fascinated mobs, it should also only be allowed once per mob. As in PnP.

[Aspenor]

I am not contrary to Fascinate following the PnP rules.

In fact, i would suggest that it breaks at the swing of a weapon, the casting of a spell, or the moment the bard leaves the line of sight of the fascinated mobs, it should also only be allowed once per mob.

This, however, would cause the ability to be completely useless.

[Tarackian]

Screw this feature. There has to be some element of risk/slash luck (yes i know its all probabilities, but tell that to the guy who rolls 2 ones in a row and is dead)....in the game. Stop with all this EASY BUTTON ****.

[Borror0]

How is "panic" unreasonable?

Because people are overestimating how much of an effect that will have. Unless you retreat forward or stall mob generator, it won't change much for you. CC will be pretty much of the same effectiveness outside of those two situations. The effects would still last one minute on Elite and very few combats with trash mobs last for a whole minute.

I'm happy I don't have a character who will be inordinately impacted by this.

My two bards would be impacted by this and I obviously don't care because it's not that much of a nerf outside of forward retreat and bugging mob generators.

Though, I think you misunderstood MadFloyd's posts. Heroic Surge is not in Update 3.

This, however, would cause the ability to be completely useless.

Agreed.

[Gornin]

It would. With a three minute long Fascinate or with Flesh to Stone, there is simply no way any monster will catch up unless it has ability to teleport (like orthons). If you reduce the duration enough, that's no longer the case. By the time it the duration is over, the players won't be too far and the monsters can catch up for retribution. With a three minute long Fascinate or with Flesh to Stone, it's too easy to bug out respawns. By limiting the duration, it's not as easy.

OH Rhett, whatever shall I do!? Those wascally adventurers found a way to defeat the encounter with out playing Whack-A-Mob!! Darn them!

I mean seriously. Why does every encounter require the death of everything. Other ways to circumvent encounters are a good thing, IMO. Remember the amount of songs are limited too, and the character probably sacrificed other things to get all those songs and extended duration.

And what about DA, when they break, shouldn't that cause an increase in alert level? But that just leads to "make'em stand still while we whack'em" more play. Railroading. One type of gameplay. Call it what you want.

Guess what, it still doesn't affect the PG's, cause they either kill everything in 30 secs or less (Dominos' Express anyone?), or they bypass it using a skill. What's the difference?

DC of fascinate too high? I may be able to support a base skill/2 approach to drop it down to a reasonable level.

Or maybe make it only affect skill/10 # of mobs?

You still haven't commented on timer respawn instead of last mob down respawns. Timer respawns may mean that if you aren't careful, you will have 2 groups of mobs and an increased DA to contend with.

[KKDragonLord]

This, however, would cause the ability to be completely useless.

For the current hack'n'slash method we apply to the whole game? Yes.

It still allows the party to disable traps, solve puzzles, drink pots, use shrines, move to another room, move to better positions, set up a strategy.

It would be much more situational, as it is in PnP, and those situations should exist, and the use of the ability should not remove challenge from the game, it should be a boon to the party, but it wouldn't be applicable on every encounter. It would require intelligent play though, and that wouldn't be bad.

If most of the problem you guys have with CC is fascinate, following the rules can put an end to them. It doesn't need a whole new mechanic that will remove CC from the game. As for other long duration spells, i already showed a few ways to deal with them, while still allowing their use, and proposed ways to increase their need in the game.

[Gornin]

As one of those power gamers on your server, I think you are missing the point being that we do use crowd control, situationally, when its still overpowered .. but because of the blanket immunities, that's rarely true. However, if you look at a more balanced CC spell like web, you will see that we do, in fact, cast that quite often. Its just that very few cc spells are practically useful outside their overpowered situations due to the blanket immunities. Shortening durations alone isn't the answer .. letting cc work in more situations is. But when the durations are extreme, they can't do that because you can use it to trivialize content to such an extreme degree. You have to control those factors before they can let you land cc spells more often.

Oh no, I do understand. My poor wizzy has started a spider farm to keep up with the spell components from casting all those heightened webs.

And I have grouped with you on a number of occasions, I know how capable you are as a player, and I do value your insight, I just disagree that shortening durations would affect how you play. It would affect those who aren't up to snuff, and that would not be a good thing IMO.

I maintain that quest and AI design is the bigger problem than durations.

I have dropped a couple of basic ideas, but those better than I at this stuff seem to have ignored them. Maybe a better idea/system could be grown from those, or suggestions from other posters.

And lastly, not directed at you except as a group, what is wrong in trying to stay true to PnP in spirit? Making CC something more useful than "Root and Kill" is a worthy goal.