Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Zenako]

Longer lasting CC is more than just Fascinate, or Disco, or Irresitible Dance. It can also be things like Dominate, or Mass Charm, or any number of spells, where the intent is to have a portion of the mobs, kill another portion of the mobs, often when done right ending up with one wounded mob to be taken care of. Is it fast? Nope. Is it always easy to pull off? Not really. Does it generally result in low expenditures of SP to clear parts of quests? Often. Will it make a zergnut happy? Hardly.

Something that is often lost, is that while speed of completion is uberly important to some players, others could care less about completion time, and are more interested in how they handle a quest, not that it took 16.2 minutes vs 60. Different players enjoy different things. Having shortened CC time has almost no affect on power zerging groups since they seldom used CC to beat most quests. Those using other styles of play are the ones who will be hurt.

[Junts]

So you're still not reading my posts.




Borror0 was claiming that a DC of ~56 i.e. perform of 45 is reasonable, i.e not an underestimation. I was pointing out that it's a severe underestimation that might lead to errenous assumptions. Errenous assumptions such as that a wizard could; could i.e. it would be possible, not common, not realistic, possible; achieve a DC in the same ballpark.

actually a 45 perform is totally reasonable; its that same typical bard not wasting a slot on a perform item since its unnecessary

or a warchanter with a perform item

makes it a useful baseline, as those last 15 points are pretty much never necessary.


I'm gonna point to my post from 5 posts ago.

CC is rarely that effective on DDO. When it is, because of how our spells work, it is usually really devastating. Making it less devastating lets Turbine make it effective in more situations. CC works so rarely because so many blanket immunities are needed to preclude how people like me would use it if they didn't exist, because they can be really broken mechanics. Modifying them into methods that aren't as extreme will let Turbine release content without blanket dancing ball or charm immunities. This would actually make your playstyle more relevant, not less.

[gavagai]

I think this is less about "what an optimal party needs" and more about "what is good game design."

A Frenzied Berserker gets excellent at DPS on the road to 20. Progress is scalable. No DPS is -bad- DPS as long as other classes, characters, or content aren't made irrelevant. Death Frenzy should be a little excessive at DPS in content not designed with it in mind; but excessive DPS is part of the trade-offs a barb makes. An optimal party can probably do without a long Death Frenzy if they are willing to use more skill and spend more time at a quest.

The EXACT same thing could be said of level 20s casting FtS or Fascinate. "Being able to do without it" is not the same as "getting rid of it is necessary to keep content relevant."

I'm not a CC player. I like melee generally. But I don't like it when game mechanics are changed that give secondary benefits to others -- say, reducing zerging among a few players -- while taking primary benefits from others. One example was the Virtuoso: what the heck can you offer a fully optimized level 20 Virtuoso that is on a par with the level 20 Barbarian? "Zug thrash 100 devil fast!" "I can sing demons into a peaceful trance for 45 seconds around 30 times per rest shrine. Then they get -2 to attacks and saves. Then I pull out my GS kopeshes and hack at them."

My impression is that CC-friendly people don't like reducing duration because they don't see any carrots to offset the sticks. They will spend more mana. They may even lose effective spells, making combat even more uni-dimensional. They feel noticeably un-Epic. The one minor carrot -- air elemental and worg issues -- didn't pan out so well. Preventing some players from rushing through content is not a benefit for everyone; and I think it would be easy for Turbine to do some of the things that most of you have mentioned, such as:
1) Reduce duration, but also scale back immunities;
2) Reduce CC duration, but change spell power equipment so that DPS casting isn't a dissertation in clickie management;
3) Reduce duration, but make PrEs that boost SP/provide at-will options so casters aren't idle;
4) Reduce duration for everyone, but give a couple specialist PrEs duration buffs.
5) If there are no player benefits, then just monitor players to get them to stop flagrant abuses of CC.

Ah gotta run... xD

[Borror0]

I think this is less about "what an optimal party needs" and more about "what is good game design."

I agree. Spells that make combat too easy are bad game design, and that's exactly was excessively long CC does by enabling forward retreat or stopping mob generators. As some game designer would say, "No challenge, no fun."

If we forgo the challenge argument, there is another effect that excessively long CC has on combat: by stopping mobs from making actions for an extended period of time, it makes combat less engaging, less predictable and more varied.

Let's say we completely ignore that excessively long CC makes the game too easy in some situations, we still end up with the problem that immobilized mobs are not fun. Immobilizing mobs is, but immobilized mobs are not. The best way to imagine that is to picture a game in which you don't take damage; it would be boring. That's because gameplay has to change and be unpredictable to a certain extend in order to be fun. Taking out mobs for 30s is fine, but when you reach the three minute mark, like high level Fascinate, it isn't.

My impression is that CC-friendly people don't like reducing duration because they don't see any carrots to offset the sticks.

To be honest, I think a lot of players are overreacting to this on terms of how it will affect. However, managing communities is part of what MMOs are about so I agree with your suggestion: throw something good with the nerf so that players are happy of the update, even if they dislike one particular change.

I think it would be easy for Turbine to do some of the things that most of you have mentioned, such as:
1) Reduce duration, but also scale back immunities;
2) Reduce CC duration, but change spell power equipment so that DPS casting isn't a dissertation in clickie management;
3) Reduce duration, but make PrEs that boost SP/provide at-will options so casters aren't idle;
4) Reduce duration for everyone, but give a couple specialist PrEs duration buffs.
5) If there are no player benefits, then just monitor players to get them to stop flagrant abuses of CC.

Of those, #1 and #3 are particularly good, I'm not sure what you mean by #2, #4 would not actually solve the problem, and #5 does not qualify as "easy" since it requires man hours better spent on not banning players for playing within the confines of the game.

[Junts]

I thought his #2 was basically a reference to my other thread.

#5 isn't a solution cause not one thing done with CC that I have mentioned in this thread is a game rules or tos violation of any kind. Outsmarting the quest is not illegal. CC lets you bypass quest objectives and mechanics, but not in such a way that incurs the wrath of the Turbine Overlords. Its just in such a way that makes quest designers cry as their carefully designed encounter never even occurs.

When mechanics require mobs to actually be fought, such tactics aren't used as they don't work; they don't let you actually skip the stated quest objectives. They let you skip the implied objective that you kill these 30 mobs before advancing down the hallway, up the ladder and into the boss's room and never returning. The quest doesn't require their death, its just designed with the expectation they will suck up resources and time. And then they do neither.

[Gornin]

Been reading thread, but first time I am able to respond. Some things have been said already, so I may repeat what some others have alluded to.

First, CC is already nerfed in this game vs PnP. I can't charm a monster, speak with him and carefully win him over to my side, and eventually make him a boon companion. I can't even take him into the next room to help me out in this game. I can't do alot of things that charm type spells are supposed to let me do, because of the limitations of an MMO. Shortening the duration is a further nerf. It also does not let me solo/small group effectively on my wiz or bard if I can't depend on my CC spells to work. It makes that option not as good as others, and if a option doesn't offer a good reason to use it, it won't be used. Thus we get the holy trinity of tank/dps/heal of MMO's. BLEAH!

The example of using CC to stop respawns, to me is just smart play. In PnP, this would represent how a party might prevent reinforcements from coming to the aid of the others or the boss. I could see a bard stepping in front of a group of reinforcements and captivating them, then weaving a suggestion into the song (/jedi mind trick "these aren't the adventurers you are looking for" /end jedi mind trick). This would completely be something allowable in a PnP game. Why not here?

One option is to set respawns on a timer instead of all members of a wave dead, but that is hardly fair to the smart player. If the timer is a long one, that might be feasable, Kind of like saying "Hey Grunk, didn't Morg say that he would be back in 5? Let's go and see if he ran into trouble". This I could get behind if the timer was reasonable, because there is story line reasonableness while still allowing the CC already applied to be effective. Even better would be if the timer is set shortly after when most CC's would break, now we have 2 groups to contend with, or when the other group arrives the shake them out of their mez, or cast dispel, possibly freeing the F2S mobs.

I would much rather see the DC for bard abilities be manged down to a reasonable level than have their duration nerfed. I really don't understand why some people say that playing one way, where CC durations are used, is not good for the game. I use them on my wiz and bard when soloing or small grouping. It is an effective way to play. Slower than some would prefer, but effective. It may be not good for you and your style, but again, this game is unique in that there is more than one way to achieve quest goals and ways to play.

These are all reasons to keep the current durations intact. Quest design has more to do with CC shortfalls or power than the abilities/spells themselves. Fixing the air eles, dogs/cats and a few other mobs as suggested by others in this thread would go a long way to fixing player dissatisfaction with a few situations, than ablanket fix that would nerf CC for all.

Look, I know this is an MMO, but it is DDO, and used to be more unique than it is now. We have been traveling down the road to sameness. Saying what other MMO's do should not apply to this one. Having long, useful CC is just one of the things that make this game different. We DO NOT need to be like other MMO's.

I know this isn't PnP, blah blah blah. Not so fast. This is DDO, it is supposed to replicate PnP. Some things are adjusted for fast MMO play and other reasons, and that is fine, as long it retains the PnP feeling that this is supposed to replicate. Some things aren't ok to change.

[Borror0]

First, CC is already nerfed in this game vs PnP.

Spellcasting is grossly overpowered in PnP compared to melee. Nerfing spells was unavoidable, and of course a good decision.

I can't do alot of things that charm type spells are supposed to let me do, because of the limitations of an MMO. Shortening the duration is a further nerf.

To prevent many CC spells from being lackluster, they got something that could be interprated as a buff to make up for that. Mind you, they might not allow the same of creative thinking out of a problem but they are certainly more powerful in-combat spells. In other words, they act differently than they acted in DDO. Saying that it's "further of a nerf" says nothing about their power level. However, the fact that many CC spells have been considered overpowered and have been nerfed before does harm your argument severely.

Just to name a few, Fascinate, Charm Person and Suggestion all got good in-combat buffs compared to their PnP version.

It also does not let me solo/small group effectively on my wiz or bard if I can't depend on my CC spells to work.

I challenge you to show me a video supporting the claim you need three whole minute of Fascinate or more than a minute of Flesh to Stone.

The example of using CC to stop respawns, to me is just smart play. In PnP, this would represent how a party might prevent reinforcements from coming to the aid of the others or the boss. I could see a bard stepping in front of a group of reinforcements and captivating them, then weaving a suggestion into the song (/jedi mind trick "these aren't the adventurers you are looking for" /end jedi mind trick). This would completely be something allowable in a PnP game. Why not here?

That reasoning might be applicable to Suggestion or Charm Person, but not to Fascinate nor Flesh to Stone.

To answer your question, it's acceptable in PnP because there is a DM and because quests cannot be repeated. That's the answer.

In PnP, it's the DM's job to ensure the players are having fun and he can respond to that in real time. Finding a smart way around the encounter is fun. It's like solving a puzzle. If the DM sees a way to let you have fun, he'll let you have fun, adapt and change his plans in a way to ensure the game's still fun.

In DDO, Turbine is the equivalent of the DM but there is no way for them to ensure that you're having a good experience in real time. They can only improve our experience by changing the game. Thing is, if the players are overcoming game mechanics, even if it's by smart play, it impacts their gameplay because it means the quest is not challenging. That's not a problem if they do it once. Finding a smart way around a problem is fun, after all. But, they'll repeat the quests several times and pass to other players. Finding the solution the first time is fun, the the reduced challenge the other times are not. In this case, the fun problem solving is dwarfed by repetition.

That's why.

[redoubt]

Most of the people defending CC in this thread are not cutting edge players. They're players with CC focused builds who's CC builds are utterly dominating in less challenging content like the Vale and Inspired Quarter, where their CC is at near or full effect and more or less wins the quests without any sort of effort at all. Those same characters are frequently incredibly ineffective in Amrath and Epic content, becuase they specialize in something that would trivialize those encounters if allowed to work .. so its not allowed to work.

What you said here is important.

CC is good in some places and not in others. More correctly, I think you said CC is AMAZING in some places and HORRIBLE in others. And HORRIBLE in the high end content.

At this point how can we say that CC is overpowered? You are even saying that people who make CC builds are not cutting edge. Why? Because there are so many artificial barriers to CC that already make CC less effective?

Direct damage is good anywhere. Melee DPS is good anywhere. CC is good in some places. What am I missing here? I don't get why some people feel the need to nerf something that is only good half the time or less...

[Junts]

What you said here is important.

CC is good in some places and not in others. More correctly, I think you said CC is AMAZING in some places and HORRIBLE in others. And HORRIBLE in the high end content.

At this point how can we say that CC is overpowered? You are even saying that people who make CC builds are not cutting edge. Why? Because there are so many artificial barriers to CC that already make CC less effective?

Direct damage is good anywhere. Melee DPS is good anywhere. CC is good in some places. What am I missing here? I don't get why some people feel the need to nerf something that is only good half the time or less...

Is reading comprehension not your thing? I will post this for the 10th time today just for you.

Because, when they are allowed to work unhindered, crowd control spells tend to be overwhelmingly good, Turbine uses immunities and such that tend to make them overwhelmingly bad. The never used, the horribleness, these things are consequences of how incredibly good it is when it does work. If the excesses were toned back, Turbine would be free to create content in which CC was effective, remove those immunities, and generally allow it to flourish in far more situations. However, they cannot do this because there is, for example, absolutely no content in the game that would not be trivialized by allowing mass suggestion to land 40% of the time. For so long as it works the way it does, it simply cannot be allowed to work on anything that is intended to be hard. Therefore, the spell is usually quite bad. If the spell were not an I-win button when it landed, Turbine could let you use it more!

Read the entire paragraph. There is a time when CC was so absurdly dominant in this game that people just spammed otto's dancing sphere through quests because it was -really- good. It was spammed for raids. For this reason, its not remotely useful anymore. If it weren't so stupid when it worked, it could work more often! These things are related! The spells are so powerful that they are huge black and white factors: great or terrible. Toning great down to good allows them to work all the time without being silly.

[sephiroth1084]

As to FtS lasting a short time... I can say that I've used it in a lot of situations where the duration of over a minute was important, and not just for shutting down respawns. CC'ed monsters make terrific walls...

[rincemeister]

It seems to me strange that people consider CC overpowered when it is only reliablly effective against trash mobs not bosses. Why are these mobs called trash ? The purpose of the trash mob is purely there to slow you down and deplete the resources of the careless or brainless. The tough fights are supposed to be the boss fights. As others have stated the use of CC to negotiate trash mobs in a manner other than killing them is a good thing. Most quests done repeatedly will be easy whether or not CC is in the game. Players will quickly determine the most efficient means for solving a quest which usually means bypassing or defeating trash mobs as quickly as possible. This will continue whether or not CC is in the game, it will just become that little bit more bland if CC is taken away as a viable strategy and the only strategy becomes to kill mobs as fast as possible.

I like the fact that in this game it is possible to sneak past mobs, lure mobs into traps to die, CC them and kill them CC and bypass or simply zerg. Don't go down the LotRO path and nerf CC out of the game and turn every boss fight into tank and spank.

Please undo these changes in time for update 4

[Samadhi]

It seems to me strange that people consider CC overpowered when it is only reliablly effective against trash mobs not bosses. Why are these mobs called trash ? The purpose of the trash mob is purely there to slow you down and deplete the resources of the careless or brainless. The tough fights are supposed to be the boss fights. As others have stated the use of CC to negotiate trash mobs in a manner other than killing them is a good thing. Most quests done repeatedly will be easy whether or not CC is in the game. Players will quickly determine the most efficient means for solving a quest which usually means bypassing or defeating trash mobs as quickly as possible. This will continue whether or not CC is in the game, it will just become that little bit more bland if CC is taken away as a viable strategy and the only strategy becomes to kill mobs as fast as possible.

I like the fact that in this game it is possible to sneak past mobs, lure mobs into traps to die, CC them and kill them CC and bypass or simply zerg. Don't go down the LotRO path and nerf CC out of the game and turn every boss fight into tank and spank.

Please undo these changes in time for update 4

Very well said sir.

[sephiroth1084]

I like the fact that in this game it is possible to sneak past mobs, lure mobs into traps to die, CC them and kill them CC and bypass or simply zerg. Don't go down the LotRO path and nerf CC out of the game and turn every boss fight into tank and spank.

This is honestly one of the biggest draws of DDO, and changes made to the game that lessen this aspect of it should be avoided whenever possible. We need more creative solutions, not hastily applied band-aids!

[mikelovskij]

I agree. Spells that make combat too easy are bad game design, and that's exactly was excessively long CC does by enabling forward retreat or stopping mob generators. As some game designer would say, "No challenge, no fun."

If we forgo the challenge argument, there is another effect that excessively long CC has on combat: by stopping mobs from making actions for an extended period of time, it makes combat less engaging, less predictable and more varied.

Let's say we completely ignore that excessively long CC makes the game too easy in some situations, we still end up with the problem that immobilized mobs are not fun. Immobilizing mobs is, but immobilized mobs are not. The best way to imagine that is to picture a game in which you don't take damage; it would be boring. That's because gameplay has to change and be unpredictable to a certain extend in order to be fun. Taking out mobs for 30s is fine, but when you reach the three minute mark, like high level Fascinate, it isn't.

A dead mob isn't fun too... let's eliminate dps too then

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This thread still delivers.

Hey Junts -- try this. Take the weapons out of your hand. NOW, you can take off all that raid gear that you got because you used your "cutting edged DPS"...

Ahhh thats better. Now, I ask you, Junts what is more overpowering in Amrath or Epic content?

Was it that CC was overpowered Junts? Or is it that CC was UNDERPOWERED? Most importantly, did you like that you couldnt use YOUR DPS to your MAXIMUM potential?

In the game world YOU BOUGHT INTO Junts, CC IS SUPPOSED TO BE OVERPOWERING, thats why its called MAGIC.

DDO will not survive on its great combat system alone. It needs to be a place where magic is THE most powerful force. That is what D&D was founded on, and thats specifically what Eberron, the very world we play on, is founded on.

Dont believe me?

Take it from Wizards of the Coast:



"Magic is as prevalent among Eberon's many cultures as it is on any other world."

"The Fabric of {Eberron} is built upon magic."

"Eberron is awash in arcane, divine and psionic energy. Magic is so important, in fact that a working class of minor mages, called magewrights, provide the services that keep the society moving forward."

Three quotes from page ONE of the "Bible" of Eberron arcane, divine and psionic energy magic.

In short I dont want to play in a world where ONLY DPS MATTERS. I want to play in a world where arcane, divine, psionic AND DPS MATTERS.

[zealous]

actually a 45 perform is totally reasonable; its that same typical bard not wasting a slot on a perform item since its unnecessary

or a warchanter with a perform item

makes it a useful baseline, as those last 15 points are pretty much never necessary.


I'm gonna point to my post from 5 posts ago.

this post??

I find it easier to just quote things, in case people didn't read/don't remember what's been previously posted an all

dear person who doesn't know what hes talking about:

Typical Fascinate DCs are not in the mid-50s.
...

We could stop at the conclusion that 45 perform is enough, and that if needed, you could fairly easily reach higher.

Again, you tell me that? I told you it was irrelevant, and you made it important.

I never claimed that, in fact, I claimed the opposite by saying I purposely estimated very low numbers so that no one in their right mind would think of nitpicking them.

Well, I did state that I understood that from the beginning and was just giving you an opportunity to prove your point, since it was so clever and covert it could confuse people. Better to be crystal clear. Up until that point was proven, illustrating some of the inherent problems with DDO spellcasting was beneficial, granted, it could have been done in a more concise and friendly manner though.
[edit:]Additionally, initially you did in fact claim that, which anyone following the exchange should be quite familiar with

---

CC is rarely that effective on DDO. When it is, because of how our spells work, it is usually really devastating. Making it less devastating lets Turbine make it effective in more situations. CC works so rarely because so many blanket immunities are needed to preclude how people like me would use it if they didn't exist, because they can be really broken mechanics. Modifying them into methods that aren't as extreme will let Turbine release content without blanket dancing ball or charm immunities. This would actually make your playstyle more relevant, not less.

Agreed. In PnP a reasonable GM would balance mobs encountered/mob saves to a level where there would always be a chance of success, a chance of failure. In DDO this is difficult/impossible due to the large range of possible DC and the benefits of making content accessible to as many as possible.

Two other aspects are:
A. We might be a bit too used with no fail cc and thus cc being hard to land seems useless to us when in fact the more restricted cc might in fact be more balanced. e.g. with spells such as mass hold reaching a high chance to succeed should require extensive specialization and/or prepping via level draining.
B. One of the primary uses of cc should feasibly to reduce the incoming damage to levels that you are able to keep up with healing wise. Seeing as healing in a high end group rarely is remotely problematic, this to a lesser or greater extent relegates dedicated tanking as well as cc to only being needed in "weak" groups.

The best way to imagine that is to picture a game in which you don't take damage; it would be boring. That's because gameplay has to change and be unpredictable to a certain extend in order to be fun.

Quoted somewhat out of context but imo this applies to having heavy fort in combination with nigh unlimited healing. In many situations you can have slight/no damage mitigation and still have no problem keeping the health up.


Then again, saves might possibly somewhat too high:

Area CC has a different problem, which is that mob saves are so high that when you are specced heavily for it, you still rarely get enough avoided damage out of it. I prevent more party damage in, say, an elite Bastion of Power or Sins of Attrition by spending the spell points on two displacements on party members than I do by casting any one specific crowd control spell (except, possibly, web, and only then because I have a great web dc and the mobs have particularly poor reflex saves). So why would I carry otto's sphere? It has a long cast time, its laggy, it won't actually prevent that much damage or control the mobs (they save out too fast), and I can just displace the group for a lot less effort. The way quest design has been done for some time really marginalizes the benefits of crowd control because anything with repeated saves is extremely likely to not work for more than 6 seconds, and controlling 2 mobs for 6 seconds is not worth 60 spell points.

Indicating that in order to have worthwhile CC in some high end quests you might need those spell foci to even have a remote chance of cc sticking long enough, and that you might have to strive for that elusive nigh 50 to make it worthwhile, possibly still not being worth the cost.

Still, there remains some spells "worth" casting for "everyone" in the form of web.

this is only made worse with abilities like actual trip (vs knockdowns like overrun) and the web spell which feature ability modifier checks. Its always comical to throw high-dc webs in DDO, where the mobs have a reasonable chance to evade being stuck in the web, but -nothing- except epic raiyum golems has enough strength to actually make the str check to break out of it, because a dc 34 strength check requires you to have like a 60 str to reliably escape. This, combined with reflex generally being mobs' worst save in DDO, is why the web spell is so incredibly effective. Despite having an every 6 second re-check to break out, that check is almost impossible for most mobs (and, for that matter, most players) to make due to the fact that it's a straight str ability check vs a dc designed for 20-30 reflex saves. Not even fighters and paladins can reliably make the str check to escape a high dc web!

Now in the same way that fascinate DCs isn't in the same ballpark as spell DCs, ability checks aren't in the same ballpark as saves such as reflex.

You can land the cc, but the mobs break out of it unless you use a spell mobs are nigh unable to break out of.

This is clearly a balancing problem since same as for fascinate, changing the mob stats would get undesirable effects. I.e. If you raise will save to give mobs a chance to save against fascinate, will based cc spells become (more) useless. If you raise mob str/dex to be able to break out of a high dc web, up to dc 48 possible, then either mob tohit+damage or AC might get too high for AC or melee to matter.
---
Getting to the end if the circular tangent, let's return to HS and the reasons for it.

Some monsters regularly end up on players' “most hated” lists, and these usually include our good friends the Air Elementals, Wolves or Worgs, and other monsters that have repeated effects that prevent players from acting. In Update Three, several changes are being made to reduce these frustrating experiences.

Now getting the effect reapplied while you're lying prone on the floor is obviously a problem that could possibly need addressing.

Still, isn't the save against trip/whirlwind based on ability modifier and not on e.g. reflex save?
If the DC for ellie whirlwind/worg trips are scaled as level appropriate spell DCs, wouldn't that make them unbalanced hard to resist?

Could something like this:

"Air elemental knocdown will now use the higher of str/dex, reflex saves, or balance skill to resist"

be the answer?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=163274
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168390
Well, maybe not using balance skill. =)

[Junts]

This thread still delivers.

Hey Junts -- try this. Take the weapons out of your hand. NOW, you can take off all that raid gear that you got because you used your "cutting edged DPS"...

Ahhh thats better. Now, I ask you, Junts what is more overpowering in Amrath or Epic content?

Was it that CC was overpowered Junts? Or is it that CC was UNDERPOWERED? Most importantly, did you like that you couldnt use YOUR DPS to your MAXIMUM potential?

In the game world YOU BOUGHT INTO Junts, CC IS SUPPOSED TO BE OVERPOWERING, thats why its called MAGIC.

DDO will not survive on its great combat system alone. It needs to be a place where magic is THE most powerful force. That is what D&D was founded on, and thats specifically what Eberron, the very world we play on, is founded on.

Dont believe me?

Take it from Wizards of the Coast:



"Magic is as prevalent among Eberon's many cultures as it is on any other world."

"The Fabric of {Eberron} is built upon magic."

"Eberron is awash in arcane, divine and psionic energy. Magic is so important, in fact that a working class of minor mages, called magewrights, provide the services that keep the society moving forward."

Three quotes from page ONE of the "Bible" of Eberron arcane, divine and psionic energy magic.

In short I dont want to play in a world where ONLY DPS MATTERS. I want to play in a world where arcane, divine, psionic AND DPS MATTERS.

I officially give up on you. If you can't see that I want CC to be able to be relevant in more situations

Powerful spells that are never allowed to work are not powerful, nor are they entertaining.


Zealous: I'm not even going to bother trying to discuss spell dcs any further with someone who continues to behave as though Pale Master was live and as though 45-47 dc spells from arcanes is something that is maintainable on a day to day basis. Even with pale master (which, btw, is for the bad arcane class only), it would cost something like 700 turbine points a day to maintain a DC like you talk about.

[zealous]

Zealous: I'm not even going to bother trying to discuss spell dcs any further with someone who continues to behave as though Pale Master was live and as though 45-47 dc spells from arcanes is something that is maintainable on a day to day basis. Even with pale master (which, btw, is for the bad arcane class only), it would cost something like 700 turbine points a day to maintain a DC like you talk about.

And once again, if you actually took the time to read my posts you would see that I make no claim as to this being feasible. You repeatedly stating that I believe that it is here, now and maintainable won't change the fact that I never claimed that. It might be required to gain a high level of success with certain CC for high end content.

[mikelovskij]

This thread still delivers.

Hey Junts -- try this. Take the weapons out of your hand. NOW, you can take off all that raid gear that you got because you used your "cutting edged DPS"...

Ahhh thats better. Now, I ask you, Junts what is more overpowering in Amrath or Epic content?

Was it that CC was overpowered Junts? Or is it that CC was UNDERPOWERED? Most importantly, did you like that you couldnt use YOUR DPS to your MAXIMUM potential?

In the game world YOU BOUGHT INTO Junts, CC IS SUPPOSED TO BE OVERPOWERING, thats why its called MAGIC.

DDO will not survive on its great combat system alone. It needs to be a place where magic is THE most powerful force. That is what D&D was founded on, and thats specifically what Eberron, the very world we play on, is founded on.

Dont believe me?

Take it from Wizards of the Coast:



"Magic is as prevalent among Eberon's many cultures as it is on any other world."

"The Fabric of {Eberron} is built upon magic."

"Eberron is awash in arcane, divine and psionic energy. Magic is so important, in fact that a working class of minor mages, called magewrights, provide the services that keep the society moving forward."

Three quotes from page ONE of the "Bible" of Eberron arcane, divine and psionic energy magic.

In short I dont want to play in a world where ONLY DPS MATTERS. I want to play in a world where arcane, divine, psionic AND DPS MATTERS.

signed

[sephiroth1084]

DDO will not survive on its great combat system alone. It needs to be a place where magic is THE most powerful force. That is what D&D was founded on, and thats specifically what Eberron, the very world we play on, is founded on.

Dont believe me?

Take it from Wizards of the Coast:



"Magic is as prevalent among Eberon's many cultures as it is on any other world."

"The Fabric of {Eberron} is built upon magic."

"Eberron is awash in arcane, divine and psionic energy. Magic is so important, in fact that a working class of minor mages, called magewrights, provide the services that keep the society moving forward."

Three quotes from page ONE of the "Bible" of Eberron arcane, divine and psionic energy magic.

In short I dont want to play in a world where ONLY DPS MATTERS. I want to play in a world where arcane, divine, psionic AND DPS MATTERS.

What the hell does any of this have to do with the discussion at hand? Yes, magic is supposed to be prevalent in Eberron, and it is. How many buffs do we typically run around with? That's magic. It may not be flashy, extra powerful magic, but it is magic being used all the time.

Magic should be the most powerful thing around? Sure, this is the case in D&D 3.5 and, guess what, in D&D casters are so far ahead of non-casters at high levels that playing anything else is kind of a joke, or like rolling a sorcerer with an intentionally low Cha. At level 20 in PnP, a fighter swings his sword, maybe doing a couple hundred damage in a round to a monster with over a thousand HP, then the wizard waves his hands, stops time for 4 rounds, and when that time is up, the monster is gone. Or dead. What the fighter did was simply irrelevant.

DDO at least has struck some kind of balance, where everyone gets to participate meaningfully most of the time with occasions where one type of character dominates and another lags behind a bit.

Neg rep for the inane ranting.