Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Ponza69]

hopefully no one is suggestion a broad brush fix to address content at levels 18 - 20 for elite group / epic raid that will effect the normal - hard 1-17 crowd in the same manner.

Rather than the CC it sounds to me like content problems.

[zealous]

You're missing the whole point: if 56 DC is on the dice, then 35 DC is off the dice and DC 35 is a perfectly effective DC in the current game.

Yes, but once again, the fascinate DC is variable, 56 is unrealisticly low and a DC of 40+ is quite realistic for a dedicated player.

I think you lost track of the point I was initially making, namely that a bard easily can acchieve a DC that is way in excess of ~56.

To argue over exactly what perform skill or spell DC is acchievable and realistic to use is quite silly and unproductive since we've already covered both feasible and maximum.

It would be all good, if the current end game content was balanced around pure TR'd Pale Master drow wizards with spell focus but it isn't.

It isn't? So the DC 32-35 casters are in high demand for their cc? It is uncommon to use level draining spells in order to land spells?

And if it is indeed balanced for casters having DC 32-35, wouldn't that content be trivialized by "the other caster" in the group having a DC of 44?

You tell me that? You're the one who accused me of "giv[ing] the erroneous impression that fascinate DC is higher than spell DCs yet in the same ballpark, it is not." If you have no idea of monsters' saves in-game, then how did you come to the conclusion that you were qualified to make that accusation?

I never accused, I merely pointed out that your number was a underestimation. I.e. that a bard can easily achieve a DC unattainable by even the most dedicated wizard. You could argue that a fascinate DC of 46-65 is in the same ballpark as wizard DCs albeit higher, however, a fascinate DC of 46-65 is unrealisticly low.

Not knowing the exact saves of monster's does in no way imply that I have no idea. Most players I know don't bother to carry equipment/respec feats to vary DC and go into a quest, spam the spells with the same save against the same mob in order to accurately estimate the save. Same as me they learn what spell works where and approximately how often.

They can also like me go and read the forums to see if someone else has made any estimations.

I do not know the exact saves but I do know that there are some mobs where a DC of 40ish only gives ~50% chance of success.

Ahem. You made it important.

No, common sense did. If fascinate DC is so much higher than spell DC, there can never be a mob, for which both work, and there isn't either 95% success for fascinate or 5% success for will based saves.

It's not as simple as that, but it does mean that duration needs to be shorter to be balanced. Of course, in the case of Fascinate, it's not even that simple because it has a long induction time so that means you've got to balance the long casting time and the near-to-no-fail DC.

The long induction time isn't that problematic since you can use it from invis, run and kite. One of the problems with the high fascinate DC is that even giving it reoccuring saves wouldn't change much due to no mob being able to have a reasonable chance to succeed without voiding all other will based cc.

Well, that's what I would say if your comment actually pertained to something I said but you seem to be off on a weird tangent about future DCs being off the dice.

Well I'm trying to keep my posts on topic so I'm using our discussion to highlight important problems

I would like to see immunities go away for current content, in the long run even for bosses. That has been mentioned by prominent people earlier in the thread. Having a HS like mechanic on reds/purples with very short intervals between reoccuring saves followed by a time period of immunity, adding reoccuring saves for all spells, might be a way to do it without "breaking the game". That would make cc speccing more viable and also open up for the good ol tactics fighter. E.g. Web and fascinate could be somewhat problematic in that scenario though. Having large discrepancies between a fully specced wizard, a fully stunning blow barbarian and someone run of the mill would also make that simple change inadequate on its own.

dear person who doesn't know what hes talking about:

Typical Fascinate DCs are not in the mid-50s. They are in the mid60s to 70s. A bard with the bard's cloak on and a cha skills item for umd will easily have a perform skill in the high 50s to 60s, and the dc is perform skill+d20, which means it will vary between high 50s to high 70s depending on roll.

that is usually off the dice even compared to your completely unrealistic wizard dc; its actually 40 points behind whats typical for a high-geared endgame caster.

the argument that fascinate has anything resembling a normal saving throw is ludicrous.

Dear person who's too impatient to read the previous posts on the subject:

23 ranks + 15 item + 2 cha + 2 luck + 3 enchantment + 6 exceptional + 4 moral=55 for a 56-75 DC or ~65 DC

Stating DC ~56 is obviously a severe understatement.

You also fail to indicate where repeatedly fascinating a respawning mob is a problem, suggesting that you were merely being dramatic in your response to my comments on that subject. If you were being dramatic, why not state the ~100 DC (91-110) achievable by a specialized and raid twinked build.

Let me explain my point more clearly for you: The number you stated might give the erroneous impression that fascinate DC is higher than spell DCs yet in the same ballpark, it is not.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

'good cc' is not 'I press a button and without fail 20 mobs stand totally still and dont count on dungeon alert for 5 minutes, which is 1/3 the duration of this entire quest and so they wont be able to catch up ever'. Fascinate would be totally balanced if it kept the same dc and lasted 1/6th as long. Or if it could actually fail sometimes.

There's nothing about either of those that would maek it not worth using. But when a bard fascinates 30 mobs at once and you skip them all, it is retardedly strong and anyone who can't appreciate that is just afraid they can't do the quest in question without it.

Without fail? There is always a 5% chance of failure even if your Perform is 70+. I've fascinated plenty of mobs lately and there is a risk of failure, albeit very small. But to say "without fail" is inaccurate.

Also, they do count towards DA unless that has been changed in the new update on Lamannia. Sure it ticks down over time as you leave them behind but it can be pretty tricky with DA to fascinate 30 mobs and still get that semi-circle right while being super-harried and beat on, LOL.

When was the last time you fascinated anyhow?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Heck, the people I run with know that the second you hear the fascinate jingle start, you sprint towards the bard and then take off running cause we don't have to waste our time on these mobs anymore

See and this is the problem. You type all those walls of text, yet dont give a bull dung about OTHER people's playstyles.

THIS is the real underlying problem Virtuosos and Spell singers face every day in game.

Messing with CC the way you have done Mad promotes the kind of play Junts talks about here, and this is exactly why its a major turnoff to the vast majority of the CC community.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Fascinate would be totally balanced if it kept the same dc and lasted 1/6th as long. Or if it could actually fail sometimes.

This is a subject you clearly know nothing about.

[Junts]

Without fail? There is always a 5% chance of failure even if your Perform is 70+. I've fascinated plenty of mobs lately and there is a risk of failure, albeit very small. But to say "without fail" is inaccurate.

Also, they do count towards DA unless that has been changed in the new update on Lamannia. Sure it ticks down over time as you leave them behind but it can be pretty tricky with DA to fascinate 30 mobs and still get that semi-circle right while being super-harried and beat on, LOL.

When was the last time you fascinated anyhow?

Hypno, fascinate, fts and other 'permanent' cc effects remove mobs from DA.

Any time I happen to have a bard along, I abuse fascinate like crazy to do epic OOB in 15 minutes instead of 30. If you think a 5% fail chance is a big deal, I dunno what to tell you.

Zealous: You keep citing this dc 44 wizard as if it actaully exists in game and as if it wasn't powered by many short-term buffs that are, in some cases, extremely hard to get and sustain (like turbine store potion boosts and alchemical turnin potion boosts) which are substantially inflating the DC you cite to unsustainable and unrealistic levels. Further, it involves buffs that aren't even on Live yet.

dc 35 casting works just fine as long as you properly target a mob's poorer save. DC 35 is not finger of death'ing an elite amrath orthon without an energy drain - but web works just fine, becuase their reflex save is quite poor.

Double spell focus feats are also particularly rare, since being limited to one school is not very effective as good cc spells are spread across a variety of schools. Double enchant and double necro are most common, and both are significantly limited.

You're simply talking about stuff that doesn't exist in practice in DDO.

[Junts]

See and this is the problem. You type all those walls of text, yet dont give a bull dung about OTHER people's playstyles.

THIS is the real underlying problem Virtuosos and Spell singers face every day in game.

Messing with CC the way you have done Mad promotes the kind of play Junts talks about here, and this is exactly why its a major turnoff to the vast majority of the CC community.

Hi. Welcome to online gaming. Players can be expected to, in general, determine and then repeat the most effective means to a given end. Fascinate is along-duration, exceptionally reliable form of CC that is broken on damage. Damaging the mobs after using fascinate defeats its primary strength, which is that they'll sit there for so long that they're no longer relevant if ignored.

However, its insanely easy to land it on a gigantic number of mobs, and leave them for a truly very long time. It doesn't matter if you're leveling and using it to skip a big mob pack in Tear or Tangleroot, using it to solo Monestary of the Scorpion in 7 minutes (been done by many a bard, with 1 kill: Sannyasi), or using it to beat epic/amrath content: if fascinate works, the best way to use it is to fascinate as big a pack of mobs as you possibly can, and then leave them there. Unless the quest is very long and they are Orthons/barbazu, they will never catch up. You wiull be so far away from them when they de-aggro that they won't even be aware of your existesnce to teleport to you and catch up.

The idea that the game should be balanced around playing sub-optimally is silly. if you are already playing poorly on purpose, you are not going to notice if the abilities are no longer used for exploitatively good purposes.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Any time I happen to have a bard along, I abuse fascinate like crazy to do epic OOB in 15 minutes instead of 30.

Funny how you like CC when it allows you to zerg faster....

[sephiroth1084]

Hypno, fascinate, fts and other 'permanent' cc effects remove mobs from DA.

Any time I happen to have a bard along, I abuse fascinate like crazy to do epic OOB in 15 minutes instead of 30. If you think a 5% fail chance is a big deal, I dunno what to tell you.

Zealous: You keep citing this dc 44 wizard as if it actaully exists in game and as if it wasn't powered by many short-term buffs that are, in some cases, extremely hard to get and sustain (like turbine store potion boosts and alchemical turnin potion boosts) which are substantially inflating the DC you cite to unsustainable and unrealistic levels. Further, it involves buffs that aren't even on Live yet.

dc 35 casting works just fine as long as you properly target a mob's poorer save. DC 35 is not finger of death'ing an elite amrath orthon without an energy drain - but web works just fine, becuase their reflex save is quite poor.

Double spell focus feats are also particularly rare, since being limited to one school is not very effective as good cc spells are spread across a variety of schools. Double enchant and double necro are most common, and both are significantly limited.

You're simply talking about stuff that doesn't exist in practice in DDO.

Not to mention the huge drawback on Yugoloth pots for non-WF.

[Junts]

Funny how you like CC when it allows you to zerg faster....

That's the point dude. What, should I like fire ball instead of firewall cause its slow and ineffective and make me have to shrine a lot?

Yes, I use cc when it is the best tool for the job. It is not a lifestyle or a community. It is a tool. When it out-performs the other tools, you use it. When it doesn't, you don't.

Simple.

[Borror0]

The answer to the question "why should we have excessively long CC" is clear in the case of the Virt: you made the PrE to provide extraordinary CC at the expense of better DPS and more mana/better casting DCs, and these players spent the AP for that CC. Unless they give Virts other offensive and defensive songs -- stat draining, HP draining, performance boosting, whatever -- I think they should have good CC.

I agree that they need good CC but they don't need excessively long CC. In fact, excessively long CC is not useful at all if you fight normally.

Excessively long CC is only useful if you start doing stuff that Turbine does not want you to do: forward retreat (running past mob without killing them, aka zerging) and immobilizing mob to overcome respawns. Other than those two exploitive use, there is no way you're going to pass over 1 minute of CC. That's why it's not a problem to reuce those durations and why excessively long CC is not a good way to balance any class.

To argue over exactly what perform skill or spell DC is acchievable and realistic to use is quite silly and unproductive since we've already covered both feasible and maximum.

Again, you tell me that? I told you it was irrelevant, and you made it important.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

That's the point dude. What, should I like fire ball instead of firewall cause its slow and ineffective and make me have to shrine a lot?

Yes, I use cc when it is the best tool for the job. It is not a lifestyle or a community. It is a tool. When it out-performs the other tools, you use it. When it doesn't, you don't.

Simple.

I actually agree with you on this Junts. Of course the name of the game is to master as many situations as possible.

My only beef with your viewpoints is that you seem completely uncaring to others that ENJOY playing their way. CC can be used MANY different ways. You are selecting just a snippet of spells. You are speaking for a very narrow portion of the entire population of DDO. This should have NOTHING to do with one party playing more efficiently than another party.

DDO, like D&D itself... should be designed with EVERYBODY in mind.

[Borror0]

DDO, like D&D itself... should be designed with EVERYBODY in mind.

That's unrealistic. The exact opposite is actually one of the most important thing to remember when reading feedback:

"Learn to recognize which parts of your game and playerbase aren't important. Your favorite part of the game may be something the playerbase doesn't care about, and there are some players who care about things that it isn't in your best interests to focus on." -Mike Darga

Other than the obvious problem that some audience are mutually exclusive, there is the problem that it's just not possible to do that with finite resources. No matter the amount of resources that you have at hand, there is no way you can add all the features that you might want so you got to decide which to favor. If you don't act this way, bad things happen and bad things are not cool - trust me.

[sephiroth1084]

That's the point dude. What, should I like fire ball instead of firewall cause its slow and ineffective and make me have to shrine a lot?

Yes, I use cc when it is the best tool for the job. It is not a lifestyle or a community. It is a tool. When it out-performs the other tools, you use it. When it doesn't, you don't.

Simple.

I don't know...CC could be a lifestyle... Have you seen my Pretty Colors thread? Believe me, Prismatic Spray is rarely, though occasionally, the best tool for the job, but it is **** fun!

[zealous]

Zealous: You keep citing this dc 44 wizard as if it actaully exists in game and as if it wasn't powered by many short-term buffs that are, in some cases, extremely hard to get and sustain (like turbine store potion boosts and alchemical turnin potion boosts) which are substantially inflating the DC you cite to unsustainable and unrealistic levels. Further, it involves buffs that aren't even on Live yet.

So you're still not reading my posts.

I think you lost track of the point I was initially making, namely that a bard easily can acchieve a DC that is way in excess of ~56.
...
I merely pointed out that your number was a underestimation. I.e. that a bard can easily achieve a DC unattainable by even the most dedicated wizard. You could argue that a fascinate DC of 46-65 is in the same ballpark as wizard DCs albeit higher, however, a fascinate DC of 46-65 is unrealisticly low.

A wizard can achieve a DC of 45-48 depending on spell school. This is obviously in the same ball park as a DC 46-65.
http://community.codemasters.com/for...94-post10.html
need to adjust for changed pale master and TRs to get my numbers ofc

Now ofc that is counting store bought + collectible pots as well as multiple TRs etc., tis still in the same ball park if you remove that, i.e. take it down to a twinked specced wiz.

That'll land you at approx DC 40.

Compare that to a fresh specced untwinked 28p WF sorc and you'll be looking at a DC in the low 30s.

This situation is problematic; if CC never fails except on a 20, you need either immunities or saves high enough that there is at least a marginal chance of mobs making the saves or the AoE cc will result in total lockdown for relatively cheap cost of mana. In the same way, if saves are too low there is no benefit to speccing for CC and feats/enhancements becomes virtually worthless.

In short, the large span of possible DCs makes balancing mob saves a nightmare.

Borror0 was claiming that a DC of ~56 i.e. perform of 45 is reasonable, i.e not an underestimation. I was pointing out that it's a severe underestimation that might lead to errenous assumptions. Errenous assumptions such as that a wizard could; could i.e. it would be possible, not common, not realistic, possible; achieve a DC in the same ballpark.

[Borror0]

Borror0 was claiming that a DC of ~56 i.e. perform of 45 is reasonable, i.e not an underestimation.

I never claimed that, in fact, I claimed the opposite by saying I purposely estimated very low numbers so that no one in their right mind would think of nitpicking them.

[Samadhi]

Excessively long CC is only useful if you start doing stuff that Turbine does not want you to do: forward retreat (running past mob without killing them, aka zerging) and immobilizing mob to overcome respawns. Other than those two exploitive use, there is no way you're going to pass over 1 minute of CC. That's why it's not a problem to reuce those durations and why excessively long CC is not a good way to balance any class.

.

What you are forgetting about here is soloing and/or bad groups.

A high DPS group is not going to care about your fascinate for more than about the 23 seconds it takes for them to mow through the mobs, unless as you are stating, it is for forward retreat or overcoming respawns.
-
However
-
A low DPS group or solo character might very much be relying on that same CC for their survival. Right now, this game is already 98% DPS and, maybe, 2% CC. Anything to give CC more of a fighting chance is definitely a good move IMO.

[Borror0]

A low DPS group or solo character might very much be relying on that same CC for their survival. Right now, this game is already 98% DPS and, maybe, 2% CC. Anything to give CC more of a fighting chance is definitely a good move IMO.

I know but, as you said, an "high DPS group is not going to care about your fascinate for more than about the 23 seconds it takes for them to mow through the mobs" which means that any leftover duration is still available for weaker groups or small group to take advantage of. Additionally, dungeon scaling will weaken the mobs' HP and those players will play on Casual/Normal which decreases more of the difference, as well.

[Samadhi]

Hypno, fascinate, fts and other 'permanent' cc effects remove mobs from DA.

.

This is misleading. Fascinate does not remove a mob from DA at all (easily testable). This was actually one of my biggest complaints against DA when it was first released. However, it might buy you the time to do something else (leaving their aggro range my best guess for the OOB example) that will reduce DA, hence why you are not entirely wrong per se. It is just worth pointing out the difference.

[Pharaun78]

Some real good suggestions on how to balance and improve the role of CC have been made, and it would be lovely to get some specific comments (even a simple yay/nay) on these from the more knowledgeable folks posting here ... might even help the dev's decide which to implement ... and not have good ideas lost in a wall of text.

So, in no particular order whatsoever:

1.) Another option would be to have "grazing saves" ;P and/or making DC have a secondary effect in the form of affecting duration/adding extra effects on a very successful roll. E.g. Death spells could be changed to reduce mob hp by a variable %, the % removed would be dependant on how successful the spell was, a 100% reduction of hp resulting in death ofc. - Zealous

2.) A mechanic with spellmantles such as HS could possibly increase the use of lower level spells, they could be used to remove the mantle to make the mobs vulnerable to the higher level spell you want to land. - Zealous

3.) Having a HS like mechanic on reds/purples with very short intervals between reoccuring saves followed by a time period of immunity, adding reoccuring saves for all spells, might be a way to do it without "breaking the game". - Zealous

4.) One way might be to simply REVERSE the progression of Heroic Surge Timers. On Casual they kick in at 30 seconds. On Normal, they kick in at 1 minute -On Hard its at 2 minutes or 90 seconds. ON Elite its at 3 minutes or 2 minutes. On EPIC it never happens.- Zenako

5.) Mord's Injunction: make more immunities temporarily dispellable. - Gavagal

6.) Bigby's hands: tactical knockdown/trip/stun effects on creatures with spell immunities. - Gavagal

7.) Regarding Heroic Surge: How about only tying it with scaling (ie group size)? Often, being CC'd repeatedly is not really an issue in larger groups, regardless of the difficulty setting, because you have other players to either be the target of the caster or capable of stealing the aggro. - BorrorO (MadFloyed re this: 'Yup, that's basically what I meant.')

8.) I would much rather see content type fixes for this type of situation. Why not add casters to the mob that have the capabililty of casting stone to flesh or freedom of movement to aid their comrades. Heal shouldn't be the only assist type spell in the mobs casters spell lists. - ieatogres

9.) I'm actually in favor of ALL area of effect spells having some temporary debuff on friendlies that get caught in the effect. - Chaosprism

10.) For example, shavarath and epic mobs have massive, massive will saves and bonuses vs charms becuase of suggestion (a 3 minute charm control with no re-save), which comes in a mass form that can affect a dozen mobs at once. - Junts ... my question, after the recurring save change, can shavarath be toned back?

11.) Regarding Heroic Surge: So change it to auto apply at certain hp threshold. ... So apply heroic surge when reaching below (20hps+5*level) and for 15 seconds after gaining hps over the threshold.- Xyfiel

Finally, I believe this summary from Junts hits the nail on the head:

Either
"
A: Spell is completely useless and not worth spending SP on due to outright immunities, vastly increased saving throws vs that specific effect, or other gameplay mechanic designed to nerf said spell into oblivion
B: Spell is incredibly effective and spamming it trivializes content.
"

Your thoughts on how to fix/change this situation?? Or is it acceptable to have a specific, popular playstyle become trivial in some of the core endgame content? Such reasoning could be applied to dps only focused builds ... e.g. a top level content area with immunity to physical damage ... quite an uproar that would cause no? ... people being forced to roll casters to get raid loot ... familiar?