Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Ponza69]

Perhaps I am a bit attached to be commenting without emotion so will be short.

I am worried that what ever is done to correct this issue that the developers will not look at class or interclass balancing. I worry that my virt will not be equal (desired) to other classes at middle/end game.

[MadFloyd]

Those certain mechanics are a minor kind of game design error, and it would be better for the designers to prevent the problem in another way, most obviously by setting the monsters to die (or "retreat"/"surrender") once they've been crowd-controlled for too long. Ideally, players would never prefer CC to killing a monster, except in special events mandated by the storyline, such as a friendly creature that's been mind-controlled. Monsters who respawn are not supported by the storyline, because there's no logical in-character reason for the reinforcements to wait until the previous wave has been killed.

It's a rule of thumb that applies to the design of many types of games: There should be no fate worse than death.

I don't disagree.

[MadFloyd]

You are however not a "NEW" player to the game, just new to these servers, and that is another thing entirely. You are a Veteran player, who just happens to have new toons.

The truely NEW players, who are largely clueless about D&D conventions and rules, are the ones getting stumped apparently by things we all take for granted as being stupidly obvious to us. If someone never saved from the Hold Person Spell, and always just died. From their perspective, it was one spell and I'm always dead. Is that valid, well from their point of view, all evidence would indicate that was true. Veteran Players know it is not universally true and as you point out, can mitigate and survive many things that would otherwise end the quest for a player who does not understand how things work.

The biggest source of failure in this whole enterprise is the documentation, but that points to another problem. Even if they did make a wonderful source of information, way too many players would never ever bother to read it. The subset of players who choose to read lengthy rulebooks and instructions were already in the game or were not being caught offguards by how things work in the game. The rest of them, used to being able to just fire up a game and "wing it" are unfortunately a sizeable portion of what I feel is driving many of the recent changes being implemented or considered.

I couldn't agree more.

SO that being the case, how to you make them at ease, but retain what it is about the game that makes it appealing to the long time players.

One way might be to simply REVERSE the progression of Heroic Surge Timers.

On Casual they kick in at 30 seconds.
On Normal, they kick in at 1 minute
On Hard its at 2 minutes or 90 seconds
ON Elite its at 3 minutes or 2 minutes
On EPIC it never happens.

Now you have actually made the system easier for the new/noob players and also given a reverse scale to the effect. It should more or less never be an issue then at level appropriate challenges, but it will cap the duration of being hosed.

I've been thinking along those lines as well, although it would probably need to tie in with scaling.

[Borror0]

I've been thinking along those lines as well, although it would probably need to tie in with scaling.

How about only tying it with scaling (ie group size)? Often, being CC'd repeatedly is not really an issue in larger groups, regardless of the difficulty setting, because you have other players to either be the target of the caster or capable of stealing the aggro.

[Cyr]

I couldn't agree more.



I've been thinking along those lines as well, although it would probably need to tie in with scaling.

Okay, tie it in with scaling on the player side and kill it on the monster side. I think that would effectively accomplish your goals of making CC more solo friendly while not screwing around with end game dynamics, nerfing wizards and bards, and trying to fix an issue with respawn mechanics in quests without actually fixing it. Really players main objection to the surges is how it will mess up their spells, characters, and end game experience and all that stems from it applying to monsters. I'm sure some were also upset over the continued hello kitty approach to new players that Turbine has been treading and tying it into scaling would go a ways towards players having an original challenge maintained for higher difficulties. I guess it all comes down to too many intended consequences for a single change and having one important (from a Turbine perspective) consequence being used to push through a whole bunch of stuff that players hate. There has been too much of that since the relaunch (including in the relaunch) and it's really hurt the fun factor in game significantly. My concern here is that the development team thinks their doing great now since the game is doing much better then the past where really it's mostly because of the business model being changed.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Probably because I was an old school D&D 1st/2nd edition player, but that's also the reason why I decided to give DDO a try.
Didn't someone state "no challenge = no fun"?

I fit into this group. I think this group is going to be the most displeased with the sweeping changes to CC.

I know one personally that refuses to come back (another founding member who played from beta til 4/09 ) just because of this potential change. (I almost talked him back into it before this thread began.)

Do the devs have the eye on the ball when it comes to its founding (paying) members and those who enjoy a more varied D&D world, with a working, powerful CC capability?

[Favis]

We can effectively turn off HS via a switch .
.

Is there idenpendet swiches for HS on spell casted vs monster and HS on spell casted vs players?
(There reason I ask is becource I like the idé of HS on CC vs players (at least on normal-hard). But not HS vs monster)

[MadFloyd]

How about only tying it with scaling (ie group size)? Often, being CC'd repeatedly is not really an issue in larger groups, regardless of the difficulty setting, because you have other players to either be the target of the caster or capable of stealing the aggro.

Yup, that's basically what I meant.

[MadFloyd]

Is there idenpendet swiches for HS on spell casted vs monster and HS on spell casted vs players?
(There reason I ask is becource I like the idé of HS on CC vs players (at least on normal-hard). But not HS vs monster)

No, there isn't.

[MadFloyd]

First of all thanks for listening, i apreciate a lot the level of comunication between the dev team and the player base.

That said i think we are working in the wrong problem, the problem is not the duration of the spells or effects, the problem is how offen they are being cast by the enemies.

A kobold that cast curse every 6 secs on the players is the problem in my opinion. Increase the number of spells they can cast, buff the other enemies, but dont let they use the 1, 2 spells they cast over and over and over.

Thats the problem i think its worth being adressed in here.

At high lvl the players have the resources (spells, items, saves to fight against the effects) walking around in WW being cursed every 6 secs is worst then the problem we have in high lvl adventures, also the dispell magic effects and SR of enemies at high lvl adventures are super high for the normal playerbase.

Thanks for your thoughts. It certainly doesn't help that monsters don't care about conserving spell points.

[Angelus_dead]

Thanks for your thoughts. It certainly doesn't help that monsters don't care about conserving spell points.

Most monsters already waste enough of their actions doing unproductive things to simulate that they are trying to conserve spellpoints. If the Kobold Shamans under consideration were smart, they'd do nothing but repeat Hold Person. Instead they stop to throw bottles, summon another fog (on top of the one that's already there), plink a Magic Missile, or just hop back and forth.

The rate of typical monsters casting CC spells is not a problem; the trouble is specific to certain monsters that cause continual knockdowns to anyone nearby.

Whenever a player complains about monsters casting spells too fast, I want to invite him down into the Wayward Lobster so he can see what "spam" actually feels like.

[The_Phenx]

Edited for repeating myself lol...

[The_Phenx]

IMO air elemental knockdown should be similar to the web immunity monsters get after either making a save against it, or making their ability check to get out. If you are knocked down you should be immune to being knocked down again for some short duration (5-7 seconds). This should also apply if you succeed your opposed ability check to avoid being knocked down.

I tend to think in terms of real life... which D&D was kinda trying to emulate.

Air eles have two sides.. 1 is the hurl effect the other is the knockdown.

If you get hurled and your balance sucks you fall over, I don't see why having been knocked over once should make you immune to being knocked over again.

The eles should have a timer on their trip effect just like we do.

Standing up quicker should be related to str, not being knocked over should be a function of balance... its opposite in its current state.

Look at acrobats for inspiration, they are the balance masters and get immunity to knockdown as an effect of this.

Shrug...

[Borror0]

Make knockdown a balance check like it should be...

It would help in making the Balance skill more important, which is good, but would go against D&D rules. Not that I mind, but perhaps some will.

Then you can properly prepare for it, and have a good fighting chance

Even with a good score against it, you'll get knocked down very often by air elementals for how quickly they spam it.

The real problem is the spam speed, in their case, not the DC itself.

[Zenako]

Whenever a player complains about monsters casting spells too fast, I want to invite him down into the Wayward Lobster so he can see what "spam" actually feels like.

truth that....

[The_Phenx]

It would help in making the Balance skill more important, which is good, but would go against D&D rules. Not that I mind, but perhaps some will.

Even with a good score against it, you'll get knocked down very often by air elementals for how quickly they spam it.

The real problem is the spam speed, in their case, not the DC itself.

Agreed... they should have a timer, and you should be able to defend against it.

But I also think they should behave properly and come out of whirly mode form time to time.

[Borror0]

But I also think they should behave properly and come out of whirly mode form time to time.

In case the devs need more persuading, it's that way in D&D: "The elemental can transform itself into a whirlwind once every 10 minutes and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has."

The numbers given might not work well for DDO, but the idea is there.

[redoubt]

I didn't use the word good. I used the term overpowered. The connotation is quite different. If it was merely good, I would have no problem with it.

Some of you people talk like if I want bards nerfed to the ground when one of my favorite characters is my bard. I also stopped playing my sorcerer, because I'm tired of just nuking stuff. Stop reading my arguments as if I want to kill the game and read my posts as if I really think some things are more powerful than they should be.

Then use your word. Overpowered.

Smiters are overpowered versus constructs.

Disruptors are overpowered versus undead.

Vorpal is overpowered against high HP w/o deathward.

Shall I go on?

The spell has to be "overpowered" somewhere to be worth having.

[The_Phenx]

In case the devs need more persuading, it's that way in D&D: "The elemental can transform itself into a whirlwind once every 10 minutes and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has."

The numbers given might not work well for DDO, but the idea is there.

There are already mobs that behave this way.

The minibosses in Raiyum for one quick example. Although air eles should not become immune to damage in whirly mode.

[Borror0]

Smiters are overpowered versus constructs.

No.

Disruptors are overpowered versus undead.

No.

Vorpal is overpowered against high HP w/o deathward.

Yes.

You seem to mistakenly equate "overpowered" to "useful" or "good."