Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Sarr]

awww poor wittle baby, got held and can't fight and died.

awwwww *sheds a tear and plays a violin*

maybe you'll learn to let archers take out mages from a distance, or let a cleric or ranger cast FoM on you, or build a character that has better saves.

it's a magic world, man. some powerful mages out there can own you. deal with it. **** happens. yea, you're going to get held and die sometimes. game wouldn't be fun if there were no danger involved... and i would say that skill and tactics can keep you out of alot of trouble. i honestly dont get held or commanded or blown around that much. sounds like you do, borror0.

But in DDO one can die in less then 1 second, while getting a crit being held, etc. That's not funny if you're already being held for minutes. I guess Devs had the right idea here, but the implementation was too restrictive or bugged. For players and monsters as well, especially with cutting down real durations of spells.

[calvinklien]

is a pretty big problem

not.

even when i was a babe to DDO it wasn't a big deal. yea, ya die some times. that's the game.

and you can call me a fool, i've been called worse.

[Borror0]

the fact that that can happen (usually to new players who dont know any better) is a pretty big problem, mostly the long-lasting ones (like knockdown or mobs with irresistable dance spam) since there's no way to learn from your mistake on the fly.

Spot on.

even when i was a babe to DDO it wasn't a big deal. yea, ya die some times. that's the game.

Back in my days, dying cost 2,000ish XP when you were high level.

If you want to give a lesson about overcoming in-game death, I think you'll need to pick on someone with a more recent join date. I overcame more than you did.

[Sarr]

Or he could be pointing out that the fact that that can happen (usually to new players who dont know any better) is a pretty big problem, mostly the long-lasting ones (like knockdown or mobs with irresistable dance spam) since there's no way to learn from your mistake on the fly. Hold person really isnt in this category, as whether you die or not, it rarely lasts more than 6-12 seconds.

PS: hold person? is that still a spell?

That's what I meant too - when I said "held" I didn't meant "Hold Person" spell, of course . But I guess it's already written (long durations, then *bam!*, you're dead).

[calvinklien]

Back in my days, dying cost 2,000ish XP when you were high level.

i wish it still was that way. *shrug*

join date has nothing to do with the fact that you're basically whining because you get held.

[argentstar]

Early in his career, when my ranger’s saves where not very good, I encountered a situation that was ludicrous. A group of whights attacked me and my hireling (that’s all that where in my group, I was “soloing” at the time). They consisted of 3 priests and 1 armored. I was lucky enough to kill the armored quickly but then all 3 priests began spamming their sonic spell. My hireling and I stood there helpless because if we saved against one, one of the other casters inevitably caught us. I thought I was going to die, but as time went on that’s all they did, stand there and spam their sonic spells. Eventually I was able to save enough times in a row (it took like 5 min) to inch up on one and whack at him and he went into melee mode and we both died … sigh … due to the other 2 continuing their spamming. To me, this highlights the real problem, AI. Rather than “fixing” spells or adding a complication like HS, I would like to see the devs work on improving the AI. It is way too easy for a monster to get “stuck” in one mode.

[Zenako]

Early in his career, when my ranger’s saves where not very good, I encountered a situation that was ludicrous. A group of whights attacked me and my hireling (that’s all that where in my group, I was “soloing” at the time). They consisted of 3 priests and 1 armored. I was lucky enough to kill the armored quickly but then all 3 priests began spamming their sonic spell. My hireling and I stood there helpless because if we saved against one, one of the other casters inevitably caught us. I thought I was going to die, but as time went on that’s all they did, stand there and spam their sonic spells. Eventually I was able to save enough times in a row (it took like 5 min) to inch up on one and whack at him and he went into melee mode and we both died … sigh … due to the other 2 continuing their spamming. To me, this highlights the real problem, AI. Rather than “fixing” spells or adding a complication like HS, I would like to see the devs work on improving the AI. It is way too easy for a monster to get “stuck” in one mode.

But the problem there seems a lot more like a numbers issue. You were getting hit by 3 casters, with a spell that has a very short duration (a few seconds) and you had a poor saving throw for it. That is why against low level mobs that have shaman, one learns to quaff things like Resist Sonic Potions or wear an item. While it may not stop the stunning, it does block some or all of the damage from the spell so you could stand there a LONG time without getting hurt.

What this more points to is the limited number of spells known by mobs that resticts their choices when casting spells at you. If they were to expand those lists (which has the additional issue of also being against the rules of D&D, where arcane casters only have a limited number of choices of spells they have in mind at any one time), it would provide diversity. Most other spells will actually be more likely to cause your death, when you are facing multiple casters at once, if you are not prepared. (that is part of the reason so many players find certain quests too hard for them to handle. Proof in the Poison has a LOT of quickfoor casters, who pump out different attack spells (MM, Melfs Acid Arrow, etc) making it harder to counter without using a lot of resources or counter/buff effects.

Yes sometimes the mobs end up with an advantage. If they never did, this would be a rather boring game. I am sure in the above case, that the poster will actually recall that fight for some time. As others mentioned, once you as a player learn some of these things, you understand the potential risks and hopefully modify your tactics. In a circumstance like the one above, a few things could hopefully be learned. 1) that the casters are the bigger threat so attacks need to focus on them first, 2) that you need to take out some or all of the casters with a method that is "safe" (ranged, other spells, etc) from what types of things that they can do. For example, had you gotten one caster in your sights and commenced to kill him with ranged attacks, even if they all charge you, it is likely you only have to deal with 2 instead of 3 when they get into Soundburst Range, which would vastly increase your odds of surviving a soundburst vs melee beatdown.

[argentstar]

But the problem there seems a lot more like a numbers issue. You were getting hit by 3 casters, with a spell that has a very short duration (a few seconds) and you had a poor saving throw for it. That is why against low level mobs that have shaman, one learns to quaff things like Resist Sonic Potions or wear an item. While it may not stop the stunning, it does block some or all of the damage from the spell so you could stand there a LONG time without getting hurt.

What this more points to is the limited number of spells known by mobs that resticts their choices when casting spells at you. If they were to expand those lists (which has the additional issue of also being against the rules of D&D, where arcane casters only have a limited number of choices of spells they have in mind at any one time), it would provide diversity. Most other spells will actually be more likely to cause your death, when you are facing multiple casters at once, if you are not prepared. (that is part of the reason so many players find certain quests too hard for them to handle. Proof in the Poison has a LOT of quickfoor casters, who pump out different attack spells (MM, Melfs Acid Arrow, etc) making it harder to counter without using a lot of resources or counter/buff effects.

Yes sometimes the mobs end up with an advantage. If they never did, this would be a rather boring game. I am sure in the above case, that the poster will actually recall that fight for some time. As others mentioned, once you as a player learn some of these things, you understand the potential risks and hopefully modify your tactics. In a circumstance like the one above, a few things could hopefully be learned. 1) that the casters are the bigger threat so attacks need to focus on them first, 2) that you need to take out some or all of the casters with a method that is "safe" (ranged, other spells, etc) from what types of things that they can do. For example, had you gotten one caster in your sights and commenced to kill him with ranged attacks, even if they all charge you, it is likely you only have to deal with 2 instead of 3 when they get into Soundburst Range, which would vastly increase your odds of surviving a soundburst vs melee beatdown.

Yes, I did learn from that and many other experiences and now, when I go into a dungeon, I try and take items/potions that will help me to overcome the challenges. However, as in RL, it is impossible to carry something for every situation and it is not always possible or expedient to research every new place you enter (although, these days I try my best to do just that). I'm not asking the devs to take the challenge out of the game by any means, just improve the AI or as you said, give the mobs more choices, so that such situations are less likely to happen. It's fun to be able to overcome a challenge but winding up in an impasse for long periods of time is not.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

"Yes sometimes the mobs end up with an advantage. If they never did, this would be a rather boring game."

That is so well said.

I overcame more than you did.

Some "elites" in this game feel they have somehow "paid their dues" and dont "deserve" a challenge. They mastered a certain situation so therefore it should NEVER CHANGE. There should be NO VARIETY WHATSOEVER. Yet after Turbine dummies down the game, they are the same exact ones who cry that there IS NO challenge left in the game. Amazing.

Luckily more people have bought this game for the ENTIRE D&D experience (or at least as much of it they can get). And this thread went a long way to prove that. The people spoke. Case closed.

[ieatogres]

One example that was brought up in this thread is the quest that involves us protecting a giant while he molests a crystal. while he's molesting this crystal then abunchof minotaurs and stuff bust out of these holes and keep fighting people. The old solution? Bring a wiz who has flesh to stone, stone 'em all so no more spawn, and voila, quest completed. I can understand the frustration (on a devs side) there because whoever designed the quest is thinking, "shoot, that's not how that is supposed to happen. There are supposed to be HORDES of monsters going for that crystal, and this one spell shuts it down completely!"

I would much rather see content type fixes for this type of situation. Why not add casters to the mob that have the capabililty of casting stone to flesh or freedom of movement to aid their comrades. Heal shouldn't be the only assist type spell in the mobs casters spell lists.

[ieatogres]

Areas where mobs are designed to spawn at a rate to keep players challenged shouldn't always be triggered based solely off timers and the death of existing mobs. Mobs that are controlled/fascinated/flesh to stoned should also cause more mobs to spawn. The ratio of respawn/charmed ratio should be at a lower rate than the usual respawn/death ratio of 1/1 due to the fact that the mobs aren't dead and can eventually save.

Say you want to keep the players challeged for 5 minutes and you don't want poor server performance due to a high number of spawns at any one time. Here is a scenario using a 1/2 respawn/charm ratio.

1. You can start by spawning something like 6 (arbitrary number) mobs.
2. When all 6 are dead you would respawn another 6.
3. If 2 are dead and 4 are held/charmed by long term spells, you could respawn 2 more to replace the dead ones and 2 to replace the 4 held/charmed ones (total of 4).
This means you actually have 8 mobs spawned. A minimum of 2 of the respawns would be casters with loaded with spells that can uncharm/unhold the mobs that have been held.
4. If the players manage to charm/stone the next group of 4, you would replace the 4 with 2 bringing the total to 10.

The tactic of charming/stoning all of the mobs would lead to a situation that most groups would now tend to avoid since it would become much more risky due to having more mobs at once then what they would normally have to deal with. This fix would let the group see some benefit from charming/stoning the mobs, just not the 100% reduction in respawn rates they are seeing in some quests now. This type of fix would also have to come with a reduction to the save rate of spells like flesh to stone (1 minute per PnP rules is way to high for an action game like DDO).

[Zenako]

This type of fix would also have to come with a reduction to the save rate of spells like flesh to stone (1 minute per PnP rules is way to high for an action game like DDO).

They already have another Save mechanism in this update which in many ways is a bigger nerf to long lasting spells, they have DRAMACTIALLY lowered the save frequency for spells like FtS, from the 1/min to about 1/6 seconds or so. Unless you hit even modest mobs with spells like energy drain (multiple times, often killing them) the mobs save "normally" (ie without HS), very fast now. BUT, at least that mechanic depends on the power of the spells used (DC) and can be countered by other things like hitting the mobs with a cursespewer for example. (But even curses now expire in a pretty rapid fashion as well....grrrr)

[Xyfiel]

My suggestion:

1) give everyone starting at level 1:
Heroic Surge
Cooldown 5 minutes
Upon entering Heroic Surge, all debilitating effects are removed from your character, and for the next 15 seconds you are immune to debilitating effects.

This actually gives you a decent buff and enough time to kill the problem or to get away. It removes the "by the time the surge goes off I will be dead anyway" problem. It also still validates having saves and the ability to block/remove effects. It puts the control of the situation back into the players control. It can also be used in some end fights though, say Thrall of the necromancer. I think in the case that you can become immune for an end fight isn't that common because if it lasts that shortly you probably didn't need the surge to begin with.

2) adjust raids/quests as needed
make the Tod orthons at the last fight rednamed. You did it for DQ. Stop inventing new stuff when there are already ways to "correct" the problem. I don't think this is the best overall course to take, but one I have already lived with, and one that doesn't completly change gameplay. How many quests is long term CC really an issue?

[Aashrym]

The only form of cc I, as a player, feel I experience regularly is 'harried'.

You sure have that right. I get hit by harried far more often than the other CC effects listed so far.

[Aashrym]

I think a good respec system for new players still on the learning curve might be more effective to help them rather than make the game easier regarding mob CC with heroic surge.

For quests that have spawns and respawns there designed to fight of hoards of mobs add killing 'x' number of 'y' mob within 'z' minutes seems like the best system to me. DDO uses that formula on some instances and not others.

For specific quests where FtS or similar effects is the issue, spawn some casters who can remove the effect.

I may be incorrect, but I thought Break Enchantment and Greater Dispelling would both work in PnP. I do not recall every trying to dispel FtS in DDO so I might need verification on whether it already does work or not.

Adding a caster to dispel the effects sounds simple enough.

[Junts]

I think a good respec system for new players still on the learning curve might be more effective to help them rather than make the game easier regarding mob CC with heroic surge.

For quests that have spawns and respawns there designed to fight of hoards of mobs add killing 'x' number of 'y' mob within 'z' minutes seems like the best system to me. DDO uses that formula on some instances and not others.

For specific quests where FtS or similar effects is the issue, spawn some casters who can remove the effect.

I may be incorrect, but I thought Break Enchantment and Greater Dispelling would both work in PnP. I do not recall every trying to dispel FtS in DDO so I might need verification on whether it already does work or not.

Adding a caster to dispel the effects sounds simple enough.

That works great, but as someone who does this kind of **** regularly it just means the first thing I do will be to pop a dozen negative levels on the caster, then flesh to stone him.

For what I imagine are performance purposes, respawning mobs in DDO don't respawn until the previous is dead, so once you have all the casters in a given spawn, you can do exactly the same thing to all the others. I cast much, much faster than a mob and I have no problem dumping several energy drains into a mob if its what it takes to ignore it for the rest of the quest in situations like that.

Honestly, the situations that this works least well are ones where you are given an npc ally, since they're worse than even puggers at killing statue fields.

For example, since I can't turn off the npc in weap shipment, I can't solve that quest by spending 140 mana on 8 mobs each and going afk for 8 minutes until the boss spawns; she kills my nice statues. But without her, thats exactly what i would do there, and what I do in situations like that.

[Borror0]

I think a good respec system for new players still on the learning curve might be more effective to help them rather than make the game easier regarding mob CC with heroic surge.

Two complete different problems, though I agree than affordable respecs mechanisms are needed.

Even if it was solely problem of poor build construction, respec mechanisms would not address the problem alone. You would need to add ways to help players figuring how to increase their saves without gimping themselves, either. That's certainly not an easy task. While some people can build a solid DDO character in 5 minutes or on the fly, others might as well spend an hour in front of the screen and not be able to make something half as good.

For quests that have spawns and respawns there designed to fight of hoards of mobs add killing 'x' number of 'y' mob within 'z' minutes seems like the best system to me.

That would greatly hurt groups with high survivability but lesser DPS.

[Pharaun78]

Would like to start by saying, thanks!! Dev's starting to make changes as they see fit, without listening to the community, was my reason for leaving my previous MMO after 3 years. So this, more than anything, will be why I keep paying my membership fee. Well done!!

Now, onto some suggestions.

1.) As mentioned before by others, focus on updating some monster AI - quickest way to improve existing quests. Don't have to do new level design, artwork. Some new scripts will give existing areas a whole new lease on life ... something fun for all those TR's to do, and impress all the new folk too ...
i.) monsters that start shield blocking when taking a beating,
ii.) casters that dispel more (cuz we're ALWAYS buff'd)
iii.) hasted monster mobs :O ... "no challenge, no fun" hey
iv) ... maybe even an 'intimi monster' that simply changes everyone's current target to that mob on fail

2.) Air ele's/doggies spammin knock-down less. I think there is a LOT of agreement on this ... go on then, u know u wanna

4.) CC too big a problem? Fix it using the rules, perhaps a new spell, Clarity of Mind, as per rule set. "Grants +4 bonus on saves involving charm, compulsion, and glamer spells" ... I'd even be happy if u 'adjust' this to say, 5-10 seconds immunity to CC.

5.) The concept of Heroic Surge has a potential place in DDO imo. Bosses and area effects. Would love to see this on the devils, instead of immunities ... say a very strong surge, but at least you can hold them for 5-10 seconds ... Same for bosses ... with a surge even more likely , the more cc is spammed ...

6.) Have monsters start with, or cast some quick buff combos on aggro too, making dispel/mordekiens play a much larger role ... and make the hinted at holy avenger so much nicer ... e.g. i do love how the hobgoblins in cabal spread displacement ... more of that please.

7.) Finally, not sure how hard it is to implement, but scaling AI with difficulty is the holy grail of game coolness imo. Not just more HP's and damage, but beasties that ACT smarter ... now that, would make everyone happy. New folks would still happily learn the trade on causal/normal ... whereas veterans will have to be sharp on hard/elite.

But yes, once again, thanks for listening.

[Kemoc]

Doing AI adjustments I would think would involve a fair amount of work, which i am sure will improve as technology advances. I would suggest again using the dice rolling system to adjust the saving rolls against effects like tripping. The ability modifier could be incremented for each time the trip was attempted. This would make it harder each time to land it. This is believable as it would be harder each time to pull the same trick on somebody. This type of algorithm could be used with other effects as well. Could even apply to all creatures in an area as they could learn from observation.

[Aashrym]

That works great, but as someone who does this kind of **** regularly it just means the first thing I do will be to pop a dozen negative levels on the caster, then flesh to stone him.

For what I imagine are performance purposes, respawning mobs in DDO don't respawn until the previous is dead, so once you have all the casters in a given spawn, you can do exactly the same thing to all the others. I cast much, much faster than a mob and I have no problem dumping several energy drains into a mob if its what it takes to ignore it for the rest of the quest in situations like that.

Honestly, the situations that this works least well are ones where you are given an npc ally, since they're worse than even puggers at killing statue fields.

For example, since I can't turn off the npc in weap shipment, I can't solve that quest by spending 140 mana on 8 mobs each and going afk for 8 minutes until the boss spawns; she kills my nice statues. But without her, thats exactly what i would do there, and what I do in situations like that.

Yes, killing casters first is generally the rule. I see your point.

Since FtS is the most obvious issue that gets us to considering the mob effectively dead after a short period of time and respawning anyway.

I agree with other posters that this would be easier to brainstorm if we knew specifically the issue the devs were trying to resolve as an end result.