Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Zenako]

Lamannia is pretty empty.

I just played around some more with my wizzie. My mana pool drops fast and I noticed another issue that I do not like.

Extend Spell cost the extra SP for some offensive CC spells that was comletely wasted in the SP cost casting. It's pointless to extend spell that will drop at that same time regardless of duration we should be seeing.

That is going to take another hotbar toggle with some spells to save SP or maybe they should be removed from the extend list. Didn't like it.

Absolutely, it will be pointless to EXTEND any CC spell that would last longer than 1 minute anyway on harder settings. With INcreased frequency of saving throws tossed in as well (in addition to the HS timer) that further negates the value of CC. On Elite settings, unless you are also Energy Draining the target a few times, spells like FtS will be saved against in seconds....Once I energy drained a couple of times, then I could make the spells last until the HS kicked in most of the time.

[Zenako]

That raises a very interesting point. What about those that chose the Extend feat. That is an expensive thing to change out.

For most CC effects it will be useless, however, most of the gaming world probably has Extend in place for other combat buffing spells like Haste and Displacement, and perhaps for Walls of Fire, although it seems like we move and leave burning pyres behind us all the time on many settings anyway...at least if you have a hot fire....

Persistent Area of Effect CC (Disco, Hypnotism, etc) are still viable in some ways, just they cannot hold mobs as long as they used to due to both HS and increased save chance frequency.

[Kemoc]

For most CC effects it will be useless, however, most of the gaming world probably has Extend in place for other combat buffing spells like Haste and Displacement, and perhaps for Walls of Fire, although it seems like we move and leave burning pyres behind us all the time on many settings anyway...at least if you have a hot fire....

Persistent Area of Effect CC (Disco, Hypnotism, etc) are still viable in some ways, just they cannot hold mobs as long as they used to due to both HS and increased save chance frequency.

True enough it is nice to have for buffs but it would change the usability enough where a free feat exchange would be fair. I am glad I took heighten instead.

[Aashrym]

For most CC effects it will be useless, however, most of the gaming world probably has Extend in place for other combat buffing spells like Haste and Displacement, and perhaps for Walls of Fire, although it seems like we move and leave burning pyres behind us all the time on many settings anyway...at least if you have a hot fire....

Persistent Area of Effect CC (Disco, Hypnotism, etc) are still viable in some ways, just they cannot hold mobs as long as they used to due to both HS and increased save chance frequency.

It's still useful for buffs, but now it's something else to track when casting. It's kind of annoying when I miss toggling it off.

This isn't so bad tho. Extend was pretty standard and has a bit less importance now. If duration was an issue for CC maybe removing extend from the CC spells before might have been a fix.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I hope so.

Because you are risking losing a large portion of the community who bought this game for the Dungeons & Dragons experience (as well as ****ing off just about anyone that's used a dancing ball).

Might as well call this game "Doom" now, and maybe it will even win "Best Free MMO Shoot Em Up Game of 2010"....

[Aashrym]

That Turbine listens pic reminded me of the threads that came up on the big stealth nerf, back when the game was new.

Anyone remember being able to remain in stealth-mode while opening doors and pulling levers?

I hope we have more luck with this feedback than there was with that one.

[moorewr]

That Turbine listens pic reminded me of the threads that came up on the big stealth nerf, back when the game was new.

Anyone remember being able to remain in stealth-mode while opening doors and pulling levers?

I hope we have more luck with this feedback than there was with that one.

But was the Stealth Nerf a stealth-nerf?

[Aashrym]

But was the Stealth Nerf a stealth-nerf?

Lol, I don't remember it as a stealth nerf to stealth, but it could have been. I left DDO not too long after the level cap increased to 12, and just came back a bit over a year ago.

A LOT has changed since the old days.

I actually enjoyed the nerf tho. I thought it was fun staying hidden, wait for the mob to look the other way, then pull the lever.

Not to derail this thread and get back on track tho... the stealth nerf back then made game play feel more stealthy adding that component. The heroic surge and subsequent immunity to CC effects gives a less CC feel to the control aspect of the classes affected.

[Pyromaniac]

Might be more of a LFM with, 'Tank/DPS/Healer filled. Buffers only please'.

I'll go one step farther, suspecting Tank/DPS/Need Healer because nobody wants to play one without any CC

[ieatogres]

Absolutely, it will be pointless to EXTEND any CC spell that would last longer than 1 minute anyway on harder settings. With INcreased frequency of saving throws tossed in as well (in addition to the HS timer) that further negates the value of CC. On Elite settings, unless you are also Energy Draining the target a few times, spells like FtS will be saved against in seconds....Once I energy drained a couple of times, then I could make the spells last until the HS kicked in most of the time.

So this change also effectively breaks extend on longer lasting spells... I will have to turn extend on and off constantly when I switch between shorter lasting spells and longer lasting spells? This is another nice side effect of this poorly thought out system.

[ieatogres]

It's still useful for buffs, but now it's something else to track when casting. It's kind of annoying when I miss toggling it off.

This isn't so bad tho. Extend was pretty standard and has a bit less importance now. If duration was an issue for CC maybe removing extend from the CC spells before might have been a fix.

This fact that extend only works in certain cases now (for lower levels it will actually work properly since the total time of the extended spell may be less than one minute and for higher level players it will not since the total time of the extended spell will exceed one minute) is a serious issue that Turbine didn't think through with this change. Let's write this one up as a bug. Of course this bug actually can't be fixed without a better thought out system since it is actually just a consequence of serious design flaw.

[ieatogres]

Since we don't really know why Turbine decided to put in this system, we can only form a hypothesis.

One reason may be that newer players were complaining about dogs and air elements. We have already demonstrated that this system doesn't do much to fix this problem since these effects don't last very long anyhow.
Another reason my be that the developers at Turbine thought that CC was lasting too long and should be capped for length of time.
I propose the following two fixes that address both of these concerns.

1. Give players and mobs a heroic surge only after the player or mob has actually rolled a save on the spell. The surge can last for the same length of time it does now. The only change is that it is not based on a simple timer.
2. Shorten the save check rate on the longer lasting spells that you would like to reduce the total time the spell usually has an effect. This can be done on an individual spell basis as to not make spells like dominate nearly useless.

Both of these systems continue to use the DnD save system which is based on player and mob stats. This system still encourages players to maintain high saves to reduce the amount of time a spell might have an effect on them. The system gives players the ability to escape once they have made their save. Ths system also rewards, rather than penalizes, players with high DC levels. This system also scales with difficultly level since the DC/Save levels already scale with difficulty.

[calvinklien]

Since we don't really know why Turbine decided to put in this system, we can only form a hypothesis.

my hypothesis: Turbine is a sinister lot. they want to actually make it harder on casters and bards. also, they want us blowing TP's on mana pots or what not. (which makes it harder)

1. Give players and mobs a heroic surge only after the player or mob has actually rolled a save on the spell.

a better idea: make it so ONLY players get a heroic surge. players are true heroes. if this is truely for the players then... why does a lvl 3 kobold get the HEROIC surge hehe. i'm sorry, a kobold is a kobold is a kobold, and you could theoretically punt one across a dungeon. a good forward kick to the chest should do the trick...

Shorten the save check rate on the longer lasting spells that you would like to reduce the total time the spell usually has an effect. This can be done on an individual spell basis as to not make spells like dominate nearly useless.

/signed

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This is NOTHING more than an economical decision to pad the profits of the DDO Store. $$ More of a reason to buy mana pots (not to mention heal/cure items) thru the DDO STORE.$$ There is no player love here what-so-ever. I'm all for Turbine making a buck, but not by breaking the game, which is what it does for so many people. If this ever goes live in its current configuration, there will really be some upset people and lost subs.

This idea NEVER would have flown in year one or two of this game. This would have caused a mass exodus.

And it should not be allowed now either.

[Riorik]

Lot of comments already so no need to state it again. This is just a bad idea.

Playing all the difficulty levels; especially on elite & epic - this is a huge player nerf, not player benefits. Last time I checked, I never saw it as a priority to make the game fun for the monsters & enemies.

[Kriogen]

...Last time I checked, I never saw it as a priority to make the game fun for the monsters & enemies.

People play games to have fun. They are even willing to pay for this fun. We pay 14.95 per month. I wonder how much mobs pay?

[ieatogres]

This is NOTHING more than an economical decision to pad the profits of the DDO Store. $$ More of a reason to buy mana pots (not to mention heal/cure items) thru the DDO STORE.$$ There is no player love here what-so-ever. I'm all for Turbine making a buck, but not by breaking the game, which is what it does for so many people. If this ever goes live in its current configuration, there will really be some upset people and lost subs.

This idea NEVER would have flown in year one or two of this game. This would have caused a mass exodus.

And it should not be allowed now either.

I'm beginning to think your right about the wanting to sell more pots from the DDO store. Players didn't want whe last major system (grazing hits) that completely broke from DnD rules, but Turbine stated it was in some players' interest since they had a hard time hitting the high AC. The change has actually done much more toward having clerics blow through spell points to heal the minor damage constantly being done because of the system.
This new system, as annoying and broken as it is, can largely be overcome with spell pots. There is one thing Turbine should understand about doing business with a customer. The transaction should be in both parties interest. Making changes to force a player to buy something to receive the same benefit they have received as part of their monthly fee in the past, does not benefit the customer in any way, shape, or form. If this system gets put in place with this much player discontent, It will further confirm my suspision that Turbine is making game changes to encourage spending in the store without reguard to the player community.

Here's an idea. Why don't you add a stamina bar in which gets drained with each swing of the weapon. When a players stamina runs out they can't swing. Add stamina pots to the store. At least then, you will be pulling money evenly from your entire community instead of selectively doing it from the casters

BTW
If this change goes live as is, with this much player resentment, consider my 3 active VIP accounts canceled until it is removed. I'll find another MMO that isn't trying to constantly change the game to nickel and dime their players.

[JPDefault]

Many said that Turbine is probably doing these changes to make the game more appealing to new players.
Well, I subscribed 2 and 1/2 monts ago, so here's a new player's opinion (and I've spent ~40$ on the game durng this time, if that matters).

This is a very disappointing step away from D&D. It pratically removes crowd crontrol from the game, along with many builds that used to be fun and effective (and far from overpowered, IMO).
It also gives saving throws to things that don't have a saving throw (scrap another page of the player's manual).
Many spells/features that I loved in D&D aren't even here, and many others are here but they're almost useless (I've yet to see somebody cast a Fire Trap...), so why limit player choices furthermore?

Ok, "it sucks" is not enough of a feedback - of course - so I'll try to give more details.
- Casting CC spells was already a hit-and-miss because of the crazy saving throws, now it's going to be a total waste of spell points/slot(s).
- You can outright remove saving throws from player characters, as they're not needed anymore. Poison effects/stat damage already go away after a minute or so, now CC effects won't last long too: you will automatically save after a set amount of time.
- My wizard was already starting to feel like a disposable haste/wall of fire clickie. Boring! It will now become boring^2.
- After trying to play a bard on Lamannia, I think I'll never roll a bard after Update 3 goes live.

Sorry for my english: it gets worse when I'm upset.

[Mjesko]

Lot of comments already so no need to state it again. This is just a bad idea.

Playing all the difficulty levels; especially on elite & epic - this is a huge player nerf, not player benefits. Last time I checked, I never saw it as a priority to make the game fun for the monsters & enemies.

Yep, if Turbine really wants to make the game easier for the players they could only add heroic surges to players. Another step in that direction would be to limit the heroic surges for player characters to casual, normal and hard, but disable them on elite and epic. If Turbine wants to add heroic surges to monsters they should give them only to boss monsters, which are currently immune to many effects.

In my opinion this change is a nerf to the players, which is not needed and its another step in the direction of PvP, but will Turbine half the damage of melee attacks and combat spells in another update?

[haunter]

Once HS happens it negates all existing CC effects. You could be Stoned, Charmed, Webbed and Tripped and those ALL go away once the timer for the first effect on you has hit the magic moment. (might even apply to things like crippled, but not sure). Would be interesing if it also applied to things like Orange/Red DA effects on your movement... Then you are immune to any CC until someone casts another CC at you for a period of time. (on characters and mobs it can be upwards of 20 seconds).

It will be interesting to see if you can bork some quests by forcing CC onto you so you get the HS and then are able to ignore the next CC and make otherwise impossible attacks/events happen due to being immune to CC for a brief period?...

Does this mean that Grease can now be used as a buff?


As mentioned, this does make spell duration for CC meaningless. With this change, they could make all CC have duration: permanent, and it would work the same. That indicates, to me, that this breaks the system.